Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[CapitalStar378]

Press are now stating that the 230 project has been postponed and TfW confirm that 197s will operate Borderlands line services - https://www.deeside.com/new-transpo...-will-operate-on-the-wrexham-to-bidston-line/

The article says the 197s will be operating on Ebbw Vale & Maesteg lines which is not correct, unless there's an interim plan due to the 231s being sent to Rhymney initially?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The article says the 197s will be operating on Ebbw Vale & Maesteg lines which is not correct, unless there's an interim plan due to the 231s being sent to Rhymney initially?

Conwy Valley is first, largely I guess because (like Matlock, which was the home of Class 170 testing) it's really easy to bustitute if needs be - it requires one bus and can run to the pretty much exact train timetable, and affects very few people. I don't know about other locations e.g. the Valley Lines, but suspect that may be confusion.

 

[D821]

Ah, it must have been a 197 I saw last Sunday. I was on the M53 and glanced at something coming into Bidston but couldn't make it out.

 

[markymark2000]

Conwy Valley is first, largely I guess because (like Matlock, which was the home of Class 170 testing) it's really easy to bustitute if needs be - it requires one bus and can run to the pretty much exact train timetable, and affects very few people. I don't know about other locations e.g. the Valley Lines, but suspect that may be confusion.

I thought Chester - Liverpool was first. Then Conwy Valley?

 

[Jez]

The article says the 197s will be operating on Ebbw Vale & Maesteg lines which is not correct, unless there's an interim plan due to the 231s being sent to Rhymney initially?

i really cant see them working Ebbw Vale/Maesteg-Cheltenham regularly. There seems to be a massive delay getting them into service at all! I suspect they will just be cleared to work those 2 routes so they can deputise for the 231s if needed and there may possibly be a few booked workings like the 175s get now on Maesteg and Ebbw Vale just to keep the train crew up to date with working that route with 175s.

I wonder if likewise the 231s will be passed to go on the mainline West of Cardiff, given they will be working Cardiff-Newport anyway for the Cheltenham runs it might make sense to pass them to at least Swansea incase they need to sub a 197.

 

[craigybagel]

Probably worth pointing out that this is the 230 thread and discussion of the future roles for 197s is taking place here.

With regards to the 230s, training has been suspended but the whole project has not been abandoned. Whilst the plan currently is that 197s will be introduced on the Bidston route, as it stands this is just a temporary solution to release the 150s that are desperately needed on the Valleys.

 

[317 forever]

Probably worth pointing out that this is the 230 thread and discussion of the future roles for 197s is taking place here.

With regards to the 230s, training has been suspended but the whole project has not been abandoned. Whilst the plan currently is that 197s will be introduced on the Bidston route, as it stands this is just a temporary solution to release the 150s that are desperately needed on the Valleys.

It would just seem odd for Wrexham - Bidston to receive brand new 197s only to be replaced soon after by ageing 230s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would just seem odd for Wrexham - Bidston to receive brand new 197s only to be replaced soon after by ageing 230s.

They're technically new trains, using an old bodyshell. Much as I think the 197 interior is decidedly so-so the 197 is a better train, but I don't think they would be seen as ageing in that context - if they are reliable. It's only reliability (and slow doors, also a problem on the Isle of Wight) that are the reasons people dislike them on the Marston Vale, the interior is quite popular. The general feel because of the "quirky" layout is of a Stadler FLIRT on the cheap, though trundling through the countryside on an old Tube train that looks and sounds a bit like an old Tube train (you can hardly hear the diesels) is a very quirky thing indeed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Probably worth pointing out that this is the 230 thread and discussion of the future roles for 197s is taking place here.

There is an established thread where Class 197 discussions can take place.

 

[bramling]

They're technically new trains, using an old bodyshell. Much as I think the 197 interior is decidedly so-so the 197 is a better train, but I don't think they would be seen as ageing in that context - if they are reliable. It's only reliability (and slow doors, also a problem on the Isle of Wight) that are the reasons people dislike them on the Marston Vale, the interior is quite popular. The general feel because of the "quirky" layout is of a Stadler FLIRT on the cheap, though trundling through the countryside on an old Tube train that looks and sounds a bit like an old Tube train (you can hardly hear the diesels) is a very quirky thing indeed.

The 484s are apparently quite popular on the IOW. I have to say I don't entirely get this as I find the interior rather austere and clinical (not helped by ultra-bright cool white lighting), and from an ambience point of view I'd take a 483 any day. I guess on Bedford-Bletchley if the bar is a 150 or 153 then one doesn't have to go too far before something is an improvement!

 

[D365]

There is an established thread where Class 197 discussions can take place.

The established thread you refer to was indeed linked by craigybagel.

The 484s are apparently quite popular on the IOW. I have to say I don't entirely get this as I find the interior rather austere and clinical (not helped by ultra-bright cool white lighting), and from an ambience point of view I'd take a 483 any day. I guess on Bedford-Bletchley if the bar is a 150 or 153 then one doesn't have to go too far before something is an improvement!

On the IoW, compared to their predecessor, the 484s are an absolute game-changer.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If, as some feel, the Class 230 units on the Borderlands line were only intended as a stop-gap on rail traction, how long would have been the time period they would have meant to run for?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If, as some feel, the Class 230 units on the Borderlands line were only intended as a stop-gap on rail traction, how long would have been the time period they would have meant to run for?

The view on the Marston Vale, if it's any clue, was about 10 years i.e. to allow for East West Rail's eastern leg to progress enough to replace them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The view on the Marston Vale, if it's any clue, was about 10 years i.e. to allow for East West Rail's eastern leg to progress enough to replace them.

The planned introduction and service running of the Class 230 units on the Borderlands line and the Marston Vale line do see to have been fraught with operational usage as a common factor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The planned introduction and service running of the Class 230 units on the Borderlands line and the Marston Vale line do see to have been fraught with operational usage as a common factor.

It's certainly not gone well. I bet LNR wish they'd instead pushed Network Rail to do the relevant signalling/platform changes to allow 2-car Class 172s to be used on the Marston Vale instead, and so do the locals. The reason for the 230s was no 150s being available and 40m platforms with signals/level crossings in the way so double 153s (the only other option) aren't possible.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Oh dear... the 484s may possibly end up as the longest living & only Vivarail units still running in the future if the TfW 230s never get to run passenger services also the MV 230s eventually get phased out when the EWR is completed.

Some TfW units could be transferred & converted for GWR's Acton line trial also as spares for the Marston Vale?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oh dear... the 484s may possibly end up as the longest living & only Vivarail units still running in the future if the TfW 230s never get to run passenger services also the MV 230s eventually get phased out when the EWR is completed.

Some TfW units could be transferred & converted for GWR's Acton line trial also as spares for the Marston Vale?

The known actual problems with reliability in service of any mainland Class 230 unit types gained from actual running in service should be enough to see them ignored on trials on other lines.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

On the IoW, compared to their predecessor, the 484s are an absolute game-changer.

Agreed, the 484s still offer the quirky charm of "tube on rural line" as their predecessors which the Island line is famous for - but obviously not as rattly & ancient as modern stock is required due to advanced age of the 483s and the locals understandably require more reliable stock instead of traditional stock purely for drawing in the tourists.

This reminds me of the short lived run the slam door units - painted in Southern Region dark green - had on the Lymington line only for SWT to replace them with 158s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, the 484s still offer the quirky charm of "tube on rural line" as their predecessors which the Island line is famous for - but obviously not as rattly & ancient as modern stock is required due to advanced age of the 483s and the locals understandably require more reliable stock instead of "hertiage" stock purely for drawing in the tourists.

This reminds me of the short lived run the slam door units - painted in Southern Region dark green - had on the Lymington line only for SWT to replace them with 158s.

The reliability issue with 230s is almost entirely related to the addition of diesel engines (the 769s have similarly not gone well). It isn't surprising that tarting them up and running them as EMUs is more successful, though the "slow doors" problem is still there.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

The reliability issue with 230s is almost entirely related to the addition of diesel engines (the 769s have similarly not gone well). It isn't surprising that tarting them up and running them as EMUs is more successful, though the "slow doors" problem is still there.

So... the Vivarail units are probably better off as 484s than 230s as these already were EMUs before conversion to battery/diesel which likely complicated matters also affecting reliability.

This obviously won't happen - just picture in a different reality, if Britain was a much poorer country and Merseyrail needs to replace its 507-8s so second-hand stock would need to be sourced then 484s could run reliably there due to the third rail?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This obviously won't happen - just picture in a different reality, if Britain was a much poorer country and Merseyrail needs to replace its 507-8s so second-hand stock would need to be sourced then 484s could run reliably there due to the third rail?

You'd just keep the 507/508s going for another 20 years. Poorer countries tend to have cheaper labour so repairing simple units with simple manufactured parts becomes more economic. Compare the typical Indian rail vehicle with the typical British one.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So... the Vivarail units are probably better off as 484s than 230s as these already were EMUs before conversion to battery/diesel which likely complicated matters also affecting reliability.

This obviously won't happen - just picture in a different reality, if Britain was a much poorer country and Merseyrail needs to replace its 507-8s so second-hand stock would need to be sourced then 484s could run reliably there due to the third rail?

For a moment, thinking of Liverpool, my mind harked back to the bygone days when that city had iconic units running on the Liverpool Overhead Railway...

 

[craigybagel]

If, as some feel, the Class 230 units on the Borderlands line were only intended as a stop-gap on rail traction, how long would have been the time period they would have meant to run for?

I don't think it was ever detailed exactly, but I think most people were expecting them to kick the can down the line another 10 years or so like on Marston Vale.

Ideally at that point battery technology would have moved on to the point that through running between Wrexham and Liverpool would be possible without the expense of electrifying the entire line.

 

[Zontar]

Seems they have found a solution and WILL be coming into service.

Transport official lifts lid on delays to introduction of new Class 230 trains on Wrexham – Bidston rail line

www.deeside.com

 

[anthony263]

Seems they have found a solution and WILL be coming into service.

Transport official lifts lid on delays to introduction of new Class 230 trains on Wrexham – Bidston rail line

www.deeside.com

I’ve just read it by the sounds of it tfw engineers been desperate to find a way to get these to work so now hopefully this issue has been felt with and we get to see them in service.

I think tfw looking at the 197’s as a way of showing they putting new trains into service on the line and get the 150’s down to the Cardiff valley lines

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The length of time that Vivarail have had to ensure these units were ready for service does nothing for their reputation.

 

[D365]

The length of time that Vivarail have had to ensure these units were ready for service does nothing for their reputation.

Reputation as what? I don’t believe they have any intention of supplying diesel trains beyond the TfW five.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Reputation as what? I don’t believe they have any intention of supplying diesel trains beyond the TfW five.

Reputation as a supplier of rail traction units. Remember their launch publicity when they first came to the market with a noted rail personage at the helm. There was nothing about battery units in those days, it was the stated ease of changing over the diesel traction set at the lineside with a fork lift truck.

Then look at the actual operational performance of the Vivarail units on the Marston Vale line. There are at least two website contributors who can give chapter and verse on reliability of those units on that line.

 

[43096]

There are at least two website contributors who can give chapter and verse on reliability of those units on that line.

No they can't. It's anecdotal evidence. West Midlands Trains and Vivarail are the ones with chapter and verse.

 

[JetStream]

Seems they have found a solution and WILL be coming into service.

Transport official lifts lid on delays to introduction of new Class 230 trains on Wrexham – Bidston rail line

www.deeside.com

I give them a fortnight, max.