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Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

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wobman

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Probably, there's some stop boards on the Borderlands line that have 197 rather than 230 on them.

My gut is 150s will remain in place until 197s take over, besides the potential for a brief period of 230s to prove they're not up to it.
The 197 test runs were needed for sighting issues for some barrow crossings on the route, then more 197 only stop boards can be installed to add to the other 197 only boards already on the route.

The 230's are still grounded with no date for there introduction other than sometime this year ! There's no training or fueling etc taking place and no drivers assigned to the project at this moment in time.
 
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Zontar

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Probably, there's some stop boards on the Borderlands line that have 197 rather than 230 on them.

My gut is 150s will remain in place until 197s take over, besides the potential for a brief period of 230s to prove they're not up to it.
Seems very plausible
 

Invincible

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"Transport for Wales announced on September 16 that delays to staff training as a result of the Coronavirus pandemic had forced a postponement to the D-Trains’ planned introduction and an associated timetable uplift to two trains per hour until May 2022.
In a statement, TfW said it had been “working closely with Network Rail to deliver the necessary infrastructure improvements and enhancements” to the line and to ensure all drivers and conductors are fully trained to use the new rolling stock."

Is this still the case for the infrastructure and trains to have been updated, presumably Vivarail have identified the problem with the power unit that caused it to catch fire and had time to rectify it on the test track?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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"Transport for Wales announced on September 16 that delays to staff training as a result of the Coronavirus pandemic had forced a postponement to the D-Trains’ planned introduction and an associated timetable uplift to two trains per hour until May 2022.
In a statement, TfW said it had been “working closely with Network Rail to deliver the necessary infrastructure improvements and enhancements” to the line and to ensure all drivers and conductors are fully trained to use the new rolling stock."

Is this still the case for the infrastructure and trains to have been updated, presumably Vivarail have identified the problem with the power unit that caused it to catch fire and had time to rectify it on the test track?
There are only six days left in the month of May 2022.
 

D821

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I've not seen them move for weeks. At least Merseyrail must be earning a bit from rent from TfW, though not enough to offset what they are paying to have all the 777s laid up.
 

TheSel

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"Transport for Wales announced on September 16 that delays to staff training as a result of the Coronavirus pandemic had forced a postponement to the D-Trains’ planned introduction and an associated timetable uplift to two trains per hour until May 2022.
In a statement, TfW said it had been “working closely with Network Rail to deliver the necessary infrastructure improvements and enhancements” to the line and to ensure all drivers and conductors are fully trained to use the new rolling stock."

Is this still the case for the infrastructure and trains to have been updated, presumably Vivarail have identified the problem with the power unit that caused it to catch fire and had time to rectify it on the test track?
In terms of the 'infrastructure improvements', residents in the locality of the railway have been notified of upcoming overnight works.

Attached scan of document, showing work continuing into November .

Borderlands Line Works.jpg
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I think really Vivarail's sale of actual units has been a flop, with only 3 in service (2 plus a spare). Their business is now technologies that have been trialled using the units they have.
Do you think that the remainder of the old LU units that Vivarail still have that have not formed part of future expected sales will eventually end up being scrapped?
 

wobman

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I've not seen them move for weeks. At least Merseyrail must be earning a bit from rent from TfW, though not enough to offset what they are paying to have all the 777s laid up.
It's stadler that are earning lots of money from tfw
 

Roger B

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I think really Vivarail's sale of actual units has been a flop, with only 3 in service (2 plus a spare). Their business is now technologies that have been trialled using the units they have.
Do you think that the remainder of the old LU units that Vivarail still have that have not formed part of future expected sales will eventually end up being scrapped?

I'd question 'eventually' - possibly more like 'imminently', given the shift in Vivarail's business referred to above.

That said most, if not all, of them will be taking a one-way journey sooner or later.
 

D821

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Have any questions been raised in the Senedd about this? The closest I've seen to any of them being used in the last month was someone opening a driver's door when I went past the depot yesterday.
 

Clansman

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I think really Vivarail's sale of actual units has been a flop, with only 3 in service (2 plus a spare). Their business is now technologies that have been trialled using the units they have.
It was a flop the minute Northern went for the CAF order to replace the Pacers. You're completely spot on.

Nothing more than an idea by well-heeled enthusiasts than a serious proposition that was ever going to be successful. To be fair they played their hand pretty well from securing the TfW & WM orders to showcasing the technology at COP last year. The Isle of Wight as well was a nice niche for them to slot into. And that was after the glitz and glamour articles stopped when the first set caught alaze not long after it was out the workshop.
 

wobman

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It was a flop the minute Northern went for the CAF order to replace the Pacers. You're completely spot on.

Nothing more than an idea by well-heeled enthusiasts than a serious proposition that was ever going to be successful. To be fair they played their hand pretty well from securing the TfW & WM orders to showcasing the technology at COP last year. The Isle of Wight as well was a nice niche for them to slot into. And that was after the glitz and glamour articles stopped when the first set caught alaze not long after it was out the workshop.
The 230's are very good for nesting birds apparently, one unit has a wren nest as its been sitting in the sidings so long !

Tfw just say the will be in service later this year but no date, the priorities have shifted to the caf 197s now. Which makes sense after wasting so much time & money on the 230's over the last 3 years.
 

wobman

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Have any questions been raised in the Senedd about this? The closest I've seen to any of them being used in the last month was someone opening a driver's door when I went past the depot yesterday.
The priorities have changed towards the 197s and the DIs involved with the 230's are back driving service trains, tfw haven't given a timescale for the 230s introduction.
The 197s were on the Wrexham-Bidston line checking barrow crossing sighting for the new 197 stopboards that are being fitted on the route.

The way it's going we may see 197s out in service before the 230's......
 

wobman

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Could a legal case be taken out against Vivarail for the current situation that so entails?

I remember their one-year contract on the Nuneaton to Coventry line being cancelled some time ago.
This must be something tfw are looking into after over 3 years of delays
 

DavidGrain

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I do not think TfW would have a very strong case against Vivarail as TfW have failed to train the drivers in order to bring them into service. As I understand it from previous comments from people in the know on here, all the drivers at Chester and possibly other depots have to be trained on the 230s before they can operate in revenue service. I have asked the question before about whether a small pool of drivers can be trained to bring them into service and I have been told no.
 

Caaardiff

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I do not think TfW would have a very strong case against Vivarail as TfW have failed to train the drivers in order to bring them into service. As I understand it from previous comments from people in the know on here, all the drivers at Chester and possibly other depots have to be trained on the 230s before they can operate in revenue service. I have asked the question before about whether a small pool of drivers can be trained to bring them into service and I have been told no.
They aren't ready to be used in service. The reliability of them has caused more delays with training than covid did.

Could a legal case be taken out against Vivarail for the current situation that so entails?

I remember their one-year contract on the Nuneaton to Coventry line being cancelled some time ago.
I think the Welsh Government are too involved now. Didn't they bail out the program in some way? Would be a few red faces if it's continuing to fail.
 

wobman

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I do not think TfW would have a very strong case against Vivarail as TfW have failed to train the drivers in order to bring them into service. As I understand it from previous comments from people in the know on here, all the drivers at Chester and possibly other depots have to be trained on the 230s before they can operate in revenue service. I have asked the question before about whether a small pool of drivers can be trained to bring them into service and I have been told no.
30 drivers at Chester are trained on them and 60 guards, this has been the case for over 2 years now.
Thats enough to operate the service on the route, its the 230's numerous reliability problems that have stopped them coming into service.

They are now over 3 years late and there's still no date for their introduction, tfw are saying they are hoping later this year.

The gen sets reliability and the high fuel consumption are the tfws 230's weak points, this time though the latest problem has been a major one as it involved the battery pack on 1 set.
 

Zontar

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30 drivers at Chester are trained on them and 60 guards, this has been the case for over 2 years now.
Thats enough to operate the service on the route, its the 230's numerous reliability problems that have stopped them coming into service.

They are now over 3 years late and there's still no date for their introduction, tfw are saying they are hoping later this year.

The gen sets reliability and the high fuel consumption are the tfws 230's weak points, this time though the latest problem has been a major one as it involved the battery pack on 1 set.
It's such a very different view the Welsh govt have!!!
 

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wobman

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It's such a very different view the Welsh govt have!!!
I was replying to a previous poster that was saying that the 230 services couldn't run as there are too few traincrew trained, the services could run as 30 drivers are trained and 60 guards.

The problems in the article are true as tfw would prefer more drivers trained up but covid stopped training for 2yrs, the priority now being training up new traincrew and the 197s plus running the full timetable now from the May TT change.

Regarding the route and the increased passenger services proposed, the ORR will soon decide. Network rail took away the crossover at Pennyfford a few yrs ago which baffled everyone.
It all depends on what's more important extra passenger or extra freight services! There's been 197s on test on the Wrexham-Bidston route, that says a lot about the 230's reliability & future prospects.
 

tomuk

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It's such a very different view the Welsh govt have!!!
Has he been taking lessons from Nicola Sturgeon. Tfw can't run 2tph because the evil English won't give any Levelling Up money. Forgetting that Levelling Up wasn't even a thing when 2tph was promised 4? years ago. Maybe if you had leased\bought some trains that work you could have started the 2tph before the freight company nicked you paths. Having said that why weren't the paths bid for sooner?
 

D821

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Have any of the units moved recently? 009 seems to have been sat collecting seagull poo outside Birkenhead North for over a month now.
 

L401CJF

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Have any of the units moved recently? 009 seems to have been sat collecting seagull poo outside Birkenhead North for over a month now.
It has been mentioned in the workplace that training is to restart in the next month or so, starting from scratch, no idea how likely this is to happen though..
 

Bletchleyite

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Press are now stating that the 230 project has been postponed and TfW confirm that 197s will operate Borderlands line services - https://www.deeside.com/new-transpo...-will-operate-on-the-wrexham-to-bidston-line/

Presumably enough are released by the additional LHCS to allow this to be done without additional orders? I think this is a good plan, question is whether Vivarail have sufficiently breached their contract to get out of it and get their money back.
 
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