Surely Birmingham is due some more suburban electrification?

[zwk500]

The logical thing to do is to first electrify the most frequent routes that carry the longest trains. Where are they ?.

Much of the South East is running 12 coach trains (or equivalent) at 5 minute or less headways. That is a lot of CO2 to be saved there.

Where is running 12 car non electric trains?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Chiltern's longer formations are probably this - but then those are/could ostensibly be the Snow Hill lines anyway. The overlap is significant so wires for one benefit the other - may as well do it all together.

Uckfield is one outlier - long and diesel. Only hourly, but could be 12 cars and electric.

Yes. Uckfield, currently 10-car iirc, a yawning omission which would soak up a lot of EMUs sending DMUs to where they are useful. Probably not already electrified because of 3rd rail phobia.

Where is running 12 car non electric trains?

Not any 12car DMU left. But, for instance Chiltern is probably running longer and more frequent than Birmingham through Snow Hill. But the two are connected. Some would probably become 12 car eventually but only once electric.

The last truly 12 car diesel service I can think of was the Chairing Cross to Hastings Route. So we are working down the train lengths.

 

[zwk500]

Yes. Uckfield, currently 10-car iirc, a yawning omission which would soak up a lot of EMUs sending DMUs to where they are useful. Probably not already electrified because of 3rd rail phobia.

Hardly a yawning omission, 1tph through Eadt Croydon.

Not any 12car DMU left. But, for instance Chiltern is probably running longer and more frequent than Birmingham through Snow Hill. But the two are connected. Some would probably become 12 car eventually but only once electric.

Aren't both ends suburban services 6 cars max atm?

 

[Birmingham]

It is unlikely that the West Midlands are an immediate priority.

Yes, the trouble is that it’s not London, and yet not far north enough to count as Levelling Up. Thus, the government can’t be bothered to invest in it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Hardly a yawning omission, 1tph through Eadt Croydon.

Aren't both ends suburban services 6 cars max atm?

Not sure exactly on 6 cars but I imagine the Birmingham to London route via Banbury must be a candidate for electrification. There must be a healthy frequency particularly at the denser Southern end.

Regarding the Uckfields electrification would allow then to avoid getting in the way of the faster EMUs thus allowing a better frequency.

 

[HSTEd]

Not any 12car DMU left. But, for instance Chiltern is probably running longer and more frequent than Birmingham through Snow Hill. But the two are connected. Some would probably become 12 car eventually but only once electric.

The last truly 12 car diesel service I can think of was the Chairing Cross to Hastings Route. So we are working down the train lengths.

What about the Salisbury/WoE trains out of Waterloo?
I know they are only 10 car most of the time but they are longer cars!

 

[The Planner]

Not any 12car DMU left. But, for instance Chiltern is probably running longer and more frequent than Birmingham through Snow Hill. But the two are connected. Some would probably become 12 car eventually but only once electric.

Not without massive rebuilding they won't, they can't even do 9 properly.

 

[Peter Sarf]

What about the Salisbury/WoE trains out of Waterloo?
I know they are only 10 car most of the time but they are longer cars!

That would be a good use for bi modes - new unfortunately. Old EMUs could be used if the whole route is electrified (AC overhead and there is a use for 319s).

Not without massive rebuilding they won't, they can't even do 9 properly.

Trains 8 or 9 cars long must be long enough to justify electrification. I wonder about frequency ?. How about 365s replacing 165s !.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not without massive rebuilding they won't, they can't even do 9 properly.

9 x 23m = 207m
12 x 20m = 240m

Not much difference there. People forget that there are different vehicle lengths out there, with SE EMUs mostly 20m and DMUs mostly 23-24m.

The longest UK daytime train is the 11-car Pendolino, which at 265m is longer than 12.350 at 240m.

(I realise you already knew that but others might not).

However the idea of 12-car at 5 minute headways everywhere is a typical Utopian false impression of the South East, unless you're stood at Clapham Junction. 8-car half hourly is a more usual level of service at South East local stations, or 4tph at busier ones but with only 2 of those being useful because it's 2 fast and 2 slow with both arriving at similar times or even being overtaken.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Would being a freight line add any extra weight to electrification given how much they like to push rail freight as the greener option?

 

[Peter Sarf]

9 x 23m = 207m
12 x 20m = 240m

Not much difference there. People forget that there are different vehicle lengths out there, with SE EMUs mostly 20m and DMUs mostly 23-24m.

The longest UK daytime train is the 11-car Pendolino, which at 265m is longer than 12.350 at 240m.

(I realise you already knew that but others might not).

However the idea of 12-car at 5 minute headways everywhere is a typical Utopian false impression of the South East, unless you're stood at Clapham Junction. 8-car half hourly is a more usual level of service at South East local stations, or 4tph at busier ones but with only 2 of those being useful because it's 2 fast and 2 slow with both arriving at similar times or even being overtaken.

That is very true. I try to remember it as 6 x 20m = 120m and 5 x 23m = 115m. So six older/traditional (if I may) coaches = 5 newer coaches. Or one new 5-car unit is often the same as 1 + 1/2 older style 4-car units.

 

[Nova1]

Realistically - would any snow hill line electrification schemes have to come at the same time as a chiltern main line electrification?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Realistically - would any snow hill line electrification schemes have to come at the same time as a chiltern main line electrification?

Chiltern stable stock at Stourbridge Jct and have the odd service running from Kidderminster so if they were to keep those then it would have to cover most of the area yes. Just leaves Kidderminster to Worcester/Malvern and then the North Warwick line to Stratford via Whitlock's End.

Obviously they could continue to use current stock for those jobs and just run EMUs from Moor St without any issues.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Realistically - would any snow hill line electrification schemes have to come at the same time as a chiltern main line electrification?

No but, at risk of invoking the nasty habit of joined up thinking, doing the suburban bit at each end (Marylebone and Snow Hill) would leave a temptingly simple part in the middle that could have an excuse as being part of the freight spine. The fact that also long distance Chiltern and GW services could benefit from the central part adds weight.

 

[Neptune]

How about 365s replacing 165s !.

Good luck putting the 365’s back together again!

 

[MattRat]

Yes, the trouble is that it’s not London, and yet not far north enough to count as Levelling Up. Thus, the government can’t be bothered to invest in it.

It's a massive city with voters who might be swayed by such projects. Or don't they want to win elections anymore? Wait, think I answered my own question....

 

[SynthD]

Would being a freight line add any extra weight to electrification given how much they like to push rail freight as the greener option?

Partial electrification is more significant for passenger services than freight. The freight operators would need to do something on their private land to support electric trains end to end, as I don’t think hybrids are an option for them.

 

[Mikey C]

It's a massive city with voters who might be swayed by such projects. Or don't they want to win elections anymore? Wait, think I answered my own question....

And the region has a Tory mayor, indeed one of their "devolution" successes. Indeed from an electoral point of view, it makes far more sense for the Tories to invest in the West Midlands than Greater Manchester!

 

[Trainbike46]

Partial electrification is more significant for passenger services than freight. The freight operators would need to do something on their private land to support electric trains end to end, as I don’t think hybrids are an option for them.

There are many electric freight locomotives with last-mile diesel engines (eg class 88), as well as the new class 93 and class 99 true bimode freight locomotives, so hybrid-type things definitely are an option. Also, with more electric freight routes the economics of doing the work on private land, such as the felixstowe port* or the london gateway connection, are more likely to stack up.

*Obviously the lines within the actual port definitely won't be upgraded unless the Ipswich-Felixstowe line is electrified first or at the same time. And even then it might not happen until Ipswich-west midlands is done too

 

[philosopher]

It's a massive city with voters who might be swayed by such projects. Or don't they want to win elections anymore? Wait, think I answered my own question....

It is an odd one as the West Midlands (the former county, not wider region) does have a lot of marginal constituencies so it would make sense for the government, be it Labour or Conservative to invest in the area to win elections. However I do get the impression the West Midlands has lost out in recent years, while Greater Manchester has been in favour. This seemed to start with Tony Blair’s government and has continued under Tory governments.

It has not helped that West Midlands councils have tended to argue with each other, rather than working with each other as they did in Greater Manchester. This probably meant the West Midlands could not lobby central government for new investment as effectively as Greater Manchester could.

I guess the government would counter this and say that West Midlands is getting HS2.

 

[Whistler40145]

Electrifying Kings Norton to Proof House Jn along with the line to Nuneaton, would provide an alternative freight and passenger route if the Five Ways route is unavailable

Would the North Warwickshire line benefit being electrified if the Chiltern mainline gets wired?

Completely eliminate the use of the dreaded Class 230s by electrifiying Nuneaton to Leamington Spa via Kenilworth

Electrifying Walsall to Castle Bromwich gives the opportunity to reopen the Sutton Park line for passenger services, plus upgrading it for Freightliners as a diversionary route too

 

[The Planner]

Electrifying Kings Norton to Proof House Jn along with the line to Nuneaton, would provide an alternative freight and passenger route if the Five Ways route is unavailable

Would the North Warwickshire line benefit being electrified if the Chiltern mainline gets wired?

Completely eliminate the use of the dreaded Class 230s by electrifiying Nuneaton to Leamington Spa via Kenilworth

Electrifying Walsall to Castle Bromwich gives the opportunity to reopen the Sutton Park line for passenger services, plus upgrading it for Freightliners as a diversionary route too

Freight rarely goes via Five Ways, as it stands WMT don't sign the Camp Hills and most of this doesnt benefit freight as its not wired either side. You could open stations on the Sutton Park now, wires make no difference, the Camp Hill stations will be diesel served for the forseeable. North Warwicks would be a given if you do the Snow Hills.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Freight rarely goes via Five Ways, as it stands WMT don't sign the Camp Hills and most of this doesnt benefit freight as its not wired either side. You could open stations on the Sutton Park now, wires make no difference, the Camp Hill stations will be diesel served for the forseeable. North Warwicks would be a given if you do the Snow Hills.

Isn't Camp Hill a diversion route for Worcester train crew, was under the impression it was.

Partial electrification is more significant for passenger services than freight. The freight operators would need to do something on their private land to support electric trains end to end, as I don’t think hybrids are an option for them.

Indeed something to consider, but as there are freight routes from Speke through the Dorridge line currently for both Ford and Jaguar factories it already is particularly electrified in reality.

 

[Birmingham]

Isn't Camp Hill a diversion route for Worcester train crew, was under the impression it was.

Indeed 1M05 GMV-BHM is booked to go that way.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Indeed 1M05 GMV-BHM is booked to go that way.

All in the name of keeping competency no doubt

 

[The Planner]

Isn't Camp Hill a diversion route for Worcester train crew, was under the impression it was.

Indeed something to consider, but as there are freight routes from Speke through the Dorridge line currently for both Ford and Jaguar factories it already is particularly electrified in reality.

Could WMT cover every train diverted though? That is one path a day in one direction only.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Could WMT cover every train diverted though? That is one path a day in one direction only.

Well isn't that the plan eventually anyway with the new stations on the camp hill line?

Currently they certainly couldn't, would require more diagrams and/or timetable changes.

 

[Snow1964]

Where is running 12 car non electric trains?

Although not 12 car, trains to Bath and Bristol are 9 long cars that are nearly same nominal 240m length (and longer than some of the 12 car Hastings sets mentioned in other posts, some of which used 18m vehicles)

Actually Bath-Bristol sees 3-4 passenger trains per hour each way, so in terms of 20m equivalent vehicles per hour exceeds the Snow Hill lines

Of course as an isolated piece of electrification would be rather useless, but as part of a Filton-Bristol-Bath to Chippenham/Westbury (or Frome) with bi-modes makes more sense, although logically should extend to Salisbury then Basingstoke/Redbridge

 

[Irascible]

What about the Salisbury/WoE trains out of Waterloo?
I know they are only 10 car most of the time but they are longer cars!

2x5 car voyagers on NE-SW services would arguably benefit more from wires...

A 9 car 80x is slightly longer than a 10 car 159. Those are on diesel for hours, if they're going to Penzance it's for most of the way.

 

[HSTEd]

2x5 car voyagers on NE-SW services would arguably benefit more from wires...

A 9 car 80x is slightly longer than a 10 car 159. Those are on diesel for hours, if they're going to Penzance it's for most of the way.

But you need far more electrification to remove diesel operation from those service