Surely Birmingham is due some more suburban electrification?

[Peter Sarf]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/wmr-class-196-build-and-implementation.166065

As you cover in your post, I think you may get some very grumpy EMR Regional passengers who would protest at the it is what it is bit (what with shortformed services, cancelled services, trains which are really feeling their age, desperate for additional stock, etc); and the better late than never bit for 20+ year old trains (not something to look forward to with completely open arms!) ; but, yes, I do agree with you.

Tell you what, though… when the 196s do eventually come into service, they’d better be worth the wait!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2022 ==


Oh gosh no - don’t say that in front of the EMR team! That’d result in an even longer than wait for the 170s if the 196s got sent back! Mind you, given EMR’s reputation for receiving faulty stock, we may as well take the 196s and WMR keep the 170s

All this talk of struggling to get new DMUs, CAF 196s in this case, working reminds me of all the usable Mk3 EMUs and 365 EMUs going for scrap. All that was needed was some wiring - if only wiring was simple. Surely Birmingham is due some more suburban electrification - especially attractive on routes out of the already electrified Birmingham New Street. Not that the Snow hill route is that complex and I would hope the GW era tunnels have a generous guage. Oops did I saw GW !. Point is do planners/decision-makers factor in all this faff with new DMUs (CAF vs Siemens, vs Bombardier/Alsthom vs Stadler, vs Hitachi) when (if) they consider alternatives like electrification ?.

 

[Mordac]

All this talk of struggling to get new DMUs, CAF 196s in this case, working reminds me of all the usable Mk3 EMUs and 365 EMUs going for scrap. All that was needed was some wiring - if only wiring was simple. Surely Birmingham is due some more suburban electrification - especially attractive on routes out of the already electrified Birmingham New Street. Not that the Snow hill route is that complex and I would hope the GW era tunnels have a generous guage. Oops did I saw GW !. Point is do planners/decision-makers factor in all this faff with new DMUs (CAF vs Siemens, vs Bombardier/Alsthom vs Stadler, vs Hitachi) when (if) they consider alternatives like electrification ?.

The tunnel just North of Moor Street looks really tricky to wire.

 

[Nova1]

The tunnel just North of Moor Street looks really tricky to wire.

Sorry this is the best picture I had.

The tunnel is very low and would be a massive problem in any future electrification plan

 

[the sniper]

While I'm not an advocate for it generally speaking, discontinuous electrification and BEMUs can be used for specific routes featuring massively problematic areas for wiring.

 

[45076]

View attachment 116936

Sorry this is the best picture I had.

The tunnel is very low and would be a massive problem in any future electrification plan

Pretty certain I read somewhere on here, maybe the EMR 360 thread that there is a fixed (solid) catenary option available for places like that.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The tunnel is very low and would be a massive problem in any future electrification plan

What is the current platform height I wonder? If there is currently quite a step up from platform to train, perhaps the track could be lowered increasing the clearance in the tunnel for wires (or, perhaps more-likely, overhead conductor bar)?

 

[AlexNL]

Pretty certain I read somewhere on here, maybe the EMR 360 thread that there is a fixed (solid) catenary option available for places like that.

Rigid overhead catenary systems require less space than the traditional wires, but still need electrical clearances.

If that's not available in some cases it's possible to lower the track bed to provide the clearance, but in this location lowering the track bed would also impact the platforms.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

What is the current platform height I wonder? If there is currently quite a step up from platform to train, perhaps the track could be lowered increasing the clearance in the tunnel for wires (or, perhaps more-likely, overhead conductor bar)?

Given the location of New St south tunnel I don't think lowering is possible. The platforms themselves go over lines onto New St and a road so would at least require extensive works. Bi-mode would surely be the best option, certainly the route towards Worcester is easier, I think Wood End tunnel may cause issues but it's been a while since I've been down there so may be wrong.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Given the location of New St south tunnel I don't think lowering is possible. The platforms themselves go over lines onto New St and a road so would at least require extensive works. Bi-mode would surely be the best option, certainly the route towards Worcester is easier, I think Wood End tunnel may cause issues but it's been a while since I've been down there so may be wrong.

I disagree. With the issues around diesel emissions the way they are it is wrong to be considering more brand new diesels, particularly as 2040 is less than a diesel engine's life away.
We invented the railways here in the UK so we should damn well design electric trains properly and modify the infrastructure to cope.

Chris Grayling has a lot to answer with discontinuous electric routes and Bimode trains. Paddington to nearly Bath, Paddington to nearly Oxford and Paddington to nearly Swansea are a disgrace.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Given the location of New St south tunnel I don't think lowering is possible. The platforms themselves go over lines onto New St and a road so would at least require extensive works.

Slab track? As far as I can tell from the photo posted above, it is currently ballasted so digging that out and replacing it with slab track might allow it to be lowered.

Given the location of New St south tunnel I don't think lowering is possible. The platforms themselves go over lines onto New St and a road so would at least require extensive works. Bi-mode would surely be the best option, certainly the route towards Worcester is easier, I think Wood End tunnel may cause issues but it's been a while since I've been down there so may be wrong.

I disagree. With the issues around diesel emissions the way they are it is wrong to be considering more brand new diesels, particularly as 2040 is less than a diesel engine's life away.
We invented the railways here in the UK so we should damn well design electric trains properly and modify the infrastructure to cope.

Chris Grayling has a lot to answer with discontinuous electric routes and Bimode trains. Paddington to nearly Bath, Paddington to nearly Oxford and Paddington to nearly Swansea are a disgrace.

Forget 2040, even 2050 is less than a diesel train's life away - the class 150s are already 35 years old, give the CAF DMUs that long and they'll still be burning diesel in 2057. I do think there is an argument for bi-modes, so that diesel doesn't need to be burnt under the wires on services that go to places which are a LONG way down the queue for wires like Pwllheli, Maiden Newton and Stranraer, but these sorts of places don't need 125mph units.

 

[Nova1]

Slab track? As far as I can tell from the photo posted above, it is currently ballasted so digging that out and replacing it with slab track might allow it to be lowered.

The heights of the platforms at moor street would still need to be lowered in this scenario though

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I disagree. With the issues around diesel emissions the way they are it is wrong to be considering more brand new diesels, particularly as 2040 is less than a diesel engine's life away.
We invented the railways here in the UK so we should damn well design electric trains properly and modify the infrastructure to cope.

Chris Grayling has a lot to answer with discontinuous electric routes and Bimode trains. Paddington to nearly Bath, Paddington to nearly Oxford and Paddington to nearly Swansea are a disgrace.

While I totally agree in principle, Moor St would be a hugely expensive project. Something that would not be given the green light anywhere outside of London most probably.

It potentially requires a lot of work, some may not be possible at all without digging down New St tracks.
IF trackbed and platforms can be dropped.
IF the gradient difference is acceptable from going over New St tracks
IF there's clearance from the road bridge that the tunnel goes under for OHLE
IF there's space inside the full length of the tunnel (definitely at Snow Hill end)

If money wasn't an issue, sure - road above is now a bus gateway anyway so could make major changes to height levels. Do the public realm works before Curzon St opens.
Electrify the route whilst the proposed increase of platforms and new link bridge are built.
But who is going to spend what would surely be hundreds of millions on it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2022 ==

Slab track? As far as I can tell from the photo posted above, it is currently ballasted so digging that out and replacing it with slab track might allow it to be lowered.

Not 100% sure, but it's very shallow for the length of the platforms if I recall correctly. So from Park St bridge to Snow Hill tunnel there isn't much to dig down as most of it is elevated over New St tracks which come across about 5-10 metres behind where that photo is taken from

 

[tomuk]

If money wasn't an issue, sure - road above is now a bus gateway anyway so could make major changes to height levels. Do the public realm works before Curzon St opens.

Due to the old inner ring road the land levels in Birmingham are odd. In the case of Moor Street Queensway there is an odd hump in the road directly to the east of the tunnel and directly above the tunnel the pavement slopes down but a wide retaining wall remains at the height of the hump and separates the road from the pavement. I don't personally remember the previous layout but I believe there was subway linking Carrs Lane and the station so I assume the odd layout is a relic of that.

As you say fixing it during the build of Curzon Street and the related public realm update and the mooted Moor Street extension would be best.

 

[Sprinter107]

Due to the old inner ring road the land levels in Birmingham are odd. In the case of Moor Street Queensway there is an odd hump in the road directly to the east of the tunnel and directly above the tunnel the pavement slopes down but a wide retaining wall remains at the height of the hump and separates the road from the pavement. I don't personally remember the previous layout but I believe there was subway linking Carrs Lane and the station so I assume the odd layout is a relic of that.

As you say fixing it during the build of Curzon Street and the related public realm update and the mooted Moor Street extension would be best.

The subway entrance was outside the pavillions, now the entrance to Primark, so was further along Moor Street. It came out more or less where the main entrance to Moor Street station is. It was a long dark subway, i used it many times, as there wasn't much choice to get from the main shopping area to Moor Street Station.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Having looked a bit closer at the area in question, that section of New St tracks/Park St bridge/Moor St Queensway just looks so complicated. Essentially 4 layers of transportation that are weaved over each other.

Could Park St be removed? Not sure what it's long term plan is with the HS2 station cutting through it, leaves a one way street to the businesses in the arches. Could also allow for a wider throat for New St tracks if buildings could be removed too.

Could Queensway be changed to cover just the M&S half of the road given its now a bus corridor anyway?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The tunnel just North of Moor Street looks really tricky to wire.

Discontinuous electrification with battery EMUs would work, as per the Valley Lines. Would also work to e.g. Southport which has a similar issue at the Wigan Wallgate bridge. To avoid pantographs getting taken off, have an earthed wire or rail under the tunnel.

 

[HSTEd]

Hasn't the insulating paint thing from Swansea Cardiff reduced 25kV electrical clearances to structures to essentially zero?

The space doesn't look that tight compared to some places on Thameslink for example.

In the Swansea Cardiff scheme total clearance from train roof to the bridge is only about 100mm or so [20mm bridge to wire, 70mm from wire to train].....

 

[snowball]

Hasn't the insulating paint thing from Swansea reduced 25kV electrical clearances to structures to essentially zero?

It's Cardiff.
Clearance is still needed between the train roof and the underside of the wire.

 

[HSTEd]

It's Cardiff.
Clearance is still needed between the train roof and the underside of the wire.

Yes, but established practice, and what happened in that scheme leaves us with a total of inches

There certainly seems to be a significant amount of headroom above the train in the image posted.

EDIT:
You only need ~100mm plus wire flex allowance.

 

[zwk500]

Yes, but established practice, and what happened in that scheme leaves us with a total of inches

There certainly seems to be a significant amount of headroom above the train in the image posted.

EDIT:
You only need ~100mm plus wire flex allowance.

Doesn't the insulating paint only help with certain materials?

It certainly looks less tight than other places with electrification, although if costs and standards are getting in the way then having Battery-Capable EMUs is a very sensible, obvious and achievable solution.

 

[Starmill]

It is unlikely that the West Midlands are an immediate priority. The Chase line has just been converted to EMUs, the expanded expanded Bromsgrove services are supported by the electrification extension and Avanti West Coast are in the process of withdrawing diesel services on the Wolverhampton - Birmingham - Coventry corridor.

Obviously I would love for the suburban DMUs serving Exeter, Bristol, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle to be top priority for decarbonisation. However they are currently not.

The priorities at the moment are working on Kettering to Wigston South Jn, Lostock Jn to Wigan North Western, Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge, Huddersfield to Dewsbury and outside Church Fenton to Colton Jn. Following these the next priorities will be the Leicester area then Nottingham and Derby. After that the rest of the North Trans Pennine route and Leeds to Bradford Interchange was included in the IRP. It's also a possibility that small parts of the deferred Western work will turn up such as Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads. In Wales there's the programme for works on the Core Valley Lines and in Scotland there's a separate clearer programme of decarbonisation which is already underway on Glasgow Central to East Kilbride and Barrhead, and will soon be underway on Haymarket to Dalmeny.

The sad fact is that taking all of the above plus the separate HS2 designs and works which will come later, there's only a little room left in the supply chain.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Yes, but established practice, and what happened in that scheme leaves us with a total of inches

There certainly seems to be a significant amount of headroom above the train in the image posted.

EDIT:
You only need ~100mm plus wire flex allowance.

Yes, looking again at the picture (re-linked below for convenience) maybe it is not so bad. Because the train is sticking out of the tunnel the roof of the unit appears very close to the tunnel/bridge. But looking at where the shadow of the bridge/tunnel falls on the unit there appears to be a good amount of space. Half way between the two is I suspect about right and might be enough clearance.

View attachment 116936

Sorry this is the best picture I had.

The tunnel is very low and would be a massive problem in any future electrification plan

 

[The Planner]

It is unlikely that the West Midlands are an immediate priority. The Chase line has just been converted to EMUs, the expanded expanded Bromsgrove services are supported by the electrification extension and Avanti West Coast are in the process of withdrawing diesel services on the Wolverhampton - Birmingham - Coventry corridor.

Obviously I would love for the suburban DMUs serving Exeter, Bristol, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle to be top priority for decarbonisation. However they are currently not.

The priorities at the moment are working on Kettering to Wigston South Jn, Lostock Jn to Wigan North Western, Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge, Huddersfield to Dewsbury and outside Church Fenton to Colton Jn. Following these the next priorities will be the Leicester area then Nottingham and Derby. After that the rest of the North Trans Pennine route and Leeds to Bradford Interchange was included in the IRP. It's also a possibility that small parts of the deferred Western work will turn up such as Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads. In Wales there's the programme for works on the Core Valley Lines and in Scotland there's a separate clearer programme of decarbonisation which is already underway on Glasgow Central to East Kilbride and Barrhead, and will soon be underway on Haymarket to Dalmeny.

The sad fact is that taking all of the above plus the separate HS2 designs and works which will come later, there's only a little room left in the supply chain.

Snow Hill lines are probably one of the highest priorities on NW&C, I would ignore HS2 in this. Certainly one for CP8 onwards.

 

[Starmill]

Snow Hill lines are probably one of the highest priorities on NW&C, I would ignore HS2 in this. Certainly one for CP8 onwards.

Indeed! And most of the other things I listed are likely to be starting in CP7 or before. HS2 spend obviously doesn't come from the same budgets. However it's not something one can just ignore because the same supply chain will be feeding HS2 as other works. The supply chain needs the capacity to produce the high spec equipment. As yet there's no real plan in place to give the supply chain cohesive forward guidance and security for them to make investments.

 

[AndrewE]

While I totally agree in principle, Moor St would be a hugely expensive project. Something that would not be given the green light anywhere outside of London most probably.

which says it all for me.

Discontinuous electrification with battery EMUs would work, as per the Valley Lines. Would also work to e.g. Southport which has a similar issue at the Wigan Wallgate bridge. To avoid pantographs getting taken off, have an earthed wire or rail under the tunnel.

Exactly, How difficult can it be? So J(F)DI. Oh, I forgot, it's not for the benefit of London or the SE. Silly me!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Snow Hill lines are probably one of the highest priorities on NW&C, I would ignore HS2 in this. Certainly one for CP8 onwards.

Would you think Moor St (or Snow Hill) towards Leamington would be a higher priority and do the Chiltern line, or would it be more likely to do the local lines?

 

[zwk500]

Would you think Moor St (or Snow Hill) towards Leamington would be a higher priority and do the Chiltern line, or would it be more likely to do the local lines?

I would personally focus on the suburban frequent stopping services, as there's a higher frequency to take advantage of the infrastructure, greater air quality benefit and makes the most of an emus benefit, as well as doing a significant portion of the work that would be required for the longer distance services anyway.

 

[Peter Sarf]

which says it all for me.

Exactly, How difficult can it be? So J(F)DI. Oh, I forgot, it's not for the benefit of London or the SE. Silly me!

The logical thing to do is to first electrify the most frequent routes that carry the longest trains. Where are they ?.

Much of the South East is running 12 coach trains (or equivalent) at 5 minute or less headways. That is a lot of CO2 to be saved there. However most of that is already done. Great Western to Reading was the last bit electrified and that was as part of the main lines to beyond the South East. Arguably discontinous electrification (Bristol, Bath, Swanse and Oxford). Nearer to Paddington the EMUs replaced a number of the most overcrowded services in the UK.

I think that places outside London and the Southeast have gained electrification recently. The first post in this thread highlights the idea that some more of Birmingham should be due. How that compares with other major conurbations i am not sure but Manchester springs to mind. Scotland it progressing steadily.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The logical thing to do is to first electrify the most frequent routes that carry the longest trains. Where are they ?.

I think that places outside London and the Southeast have gained electrification recently. The first post in this thread highlights the idea that some more of Birmingham should be due. How that compares with other major conurbations i am not sure but Manchester springs to mind. Scotland it progressing steadily.

It's not totally relevant to compare city to city given that Birmingham has a very large local rail network that reaches a high percentage of its population, whereas some cities have very limited rail networks if you exclude metro/light rail networks.

You could compare footfall I guess, certainly Kidderminster/Stourbridge Jct/Solihull carry high numbers but would still fall short of some in the South East due to population density and the draw of it being a line into London.

 

[cle]

The logical thing to do is to first electrify the most frequent routes that carry the longest trains. Where are they ?.

Much of the South East is running 12 coach trains (or equivalent) at 5 minute or less headways. That is a lot of CO2 to be saved there. However most of that is already done. Great Western to Reading was the last bit electrified and that was as part of the main lines to beyond the South East. Arguably discontinous electrification (Bristol, Bath, Swanse and Oxford). Nearer to Paddington the EMUs replaced a number of the most overcrowded services in the UK.

I think that places outside London and the Southeast have gained electrification recently. The first post in this thread highlights the idea that some more of Birmingham should be due. How that compares with other major conurbations i am not sure but Manchester springs to mind. Scotland it progressing steadily.

Chiltern's longer formations are probably this - but then those are/could ostensibly be the Snow Hill lines anyway. The overlap is significant so wires for one benefit the other - may as well do it all together.

Uckfield is one outlier - long and diesel. Only hourly, but could be 12 cars and electric.