SNP to launch fresh Scottish independence campaign

[Acfb]

As per Brexit this is a genuinely good idea. Vote again once you know what it actually will look like.

This sounds a lot more reasonable to me (perhaps even more reasonable than it was for the EU referendum) but I think ultimately she expects this to be rebuffed and to try and build up SNP support to help keep bums on seats at Westminster in 2024.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there a timescale for the release of documents and a “vision paper” by the SNP?

 

[MotCO]

I guess the difference is the UK has left a political and economic union so the SNP are asking Scotland to leave an economic and political union because they weren't happy that the UK left a political and economic union.

And join a different economic union (even if not political at this stage) - how does that square with Independence?

 

[Berliner]

And join a different economic union (even if not political at this stage) - how does that square with Independence?

It's a lot more independent than being in the UK, surely we can agree on that?

Are we also really going to see this tired argument rolled out? That being in the EU isn't independence? You may as well argue that being in the UN, NATO, CARICOM, ASEAN, ECOWAS or even the commonwealth means a country cannot call itself independent?

 

[MotCO]

It's a lot more independent than being in the UK, surely we can agree on that?

Are we also really going to see this tired argument rolled out? That being in the EU isn't independence? You may as well argue that being in the UN, NATO, CARICOM, ASEAN, ECOWAS or even the commonwealth means a country cannot call itself independent?

The EU is in all intents and purposes a political union. The UN etc are not in the same camp.

 

[DustyBin]

The EU is in all intents and purposes a political union. The UN etc are not in the same camp.

Agreed, it’s a false equivalence.

 

[Berliner]

The EU is in all intents and purposes a political union. The UN etc are not in the same camp.

They are in the same camp as they are a group of countries who come together with common aims to support one another.

Anyway, I am not being dragged into to silliness that is the argument of "being in the EU isn't independent" as being in the EU would give me a Scottish passport, Scottish citizenship, an independent Scottish government, etc. Being in the UK gives me none of that. So I'll take independence in the EU over what seems increasingly like forced membership of the UK any day.

 

[Scotrail12]

What do we think will happen to citizenship? Personally I'd rather keep UK citizenship and not accept a hypothetical independent Scottish citizenship.

 

[MotCO]

an independent Scottish government,

dictated to by the EU. Hardly independent. Any laws passed by the EU must be followed and upheld in member states.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What do we think will happen to citizenship? Personally I'd rather keep UK citizenship and not accept a hypothetical independent Scottish citizenship.

One of the many things to be agreed! What happened on Irish independence?

 

[Ianigsy]

I suspect that for the sake of sanity you would have to have a similar provision to the one in the Good Friday Agreement to give individuals as free a choice as possible. There are too many Scottish born citizens in England and English/Welsh/Northern Irish citizens in Scotland otherwise, and if you take it back a couple of generations….half the population of Glasgow would probably be entitled to three passports, for a start!

I remember Spike Milligan used to tell an anecdote about having to claim Irish citizenship through his parents because having been born in colonial India, he’d missed the deadline to apply for British citizenship after Indian independence.

 

[Berliner]

What do we think will happen to citizenship? Personally I'd rather keep UK citizenship and not accept a hypothetical independent Scottish citizenship.

Who is forcing you to give up your British passport/citizenship? I've never once seen that mentioned by anyone, on either side, you'll become like one of the millions of people in the world who simply live in a country where they are not a citizen, but have some kind of permanent residency, allowing them to continue living their lives as they were for years beforehand. The situation facing Scotland in the event of independence is hardly unique, why are people pretending it is? There are countries all around the world where neighbors live and work freely with each other, or if not freely, then very very easily. As alluded to in post 371, the UK is full of families with ties to all corners of this island and the one next door. Half my cousins are entitled to or indeed have Irish passports and don't even live on the island of Ireland. Likewise, I know people born in the ROI who only hold UK passports. None of this would change. Why would it? We already have systems in place to deal with these exact scenarios, Scotland is hardly going to reinvent the wheel.

I see people suggesting a second vote is held, in the event of a Yes result, to gauge if people want what is on offer. What if that returns a No vote? Does that mean people still want independence, just not the terms that have been worked out, or does the whole idea get scrapped? Is a confirmation vote (which we don't have in the UK) really just an "undo" option for unionists to re-run the who campaign again? Would they negotiate a deal and then urge others to vote against it? What would be the point in that? It would be far better, in the event of a yes vote, to get all sides around the table (I suspect the Scottish version of the British parties would boycott it out of spite anyway), negotiate a deal, and then hold a GE with each party telling us where they stand.

 

[Runningaround]

The vote in 1975 was organised by the Labour government in order to confirm the decision of the previous Conservative government to join the then E.E.C. in 1973 without consulting the people beforehand.

From what I can see from recent polls, opinion in Scotland is split fairly evenly on whether to have another referendum in the first place, and how people would vote if another referendum were to be held.

So it is by no means certain that Nicola Sturgeon would get the result she wants.

Perhaps the reason she is so keen to hold a referendum on 19th October 2023 is that she wants it to happen whilst the Conservatives, and Boris Johnson in particular, are still in office.

She knows that the unpopularity of the Conservatives in Scotland is one thing that swings opinion in her favour, and if the next UK general election results in a minority government headed by Sir Keir Starmer, then support for independence in Scotland may decline, especially if a new (UK) government decides to strengthen ties with the E.U..

Boris Johnson is giving the Independence sides in all devolved nations such a boost they are all hoping he stays, they might even employ tactical voting of Tory to keep him at Westminster at the next GE. Sturgeon knows full well that a ''Remain in the UK'' campaign headed by Boris Johnson now will swing it as far in favour to independence as it'll ever get.
I'm not surprised the English Independence parties are quiet knowing they will be pushing for self governance that'll be even more Tory if Wales and Scotland leave.

 

[Enthusiast]

What happened on Irish independence?

When Ireland (well, most of it) secured its independence, the EU did not exist and Ireland did not propose leaving one political union for another.

From a purely practical point of view, Scotland currently has 59 out of the 650 Westminster seats (9%). More than that, there may possibly be occasions when that 9% - especially if, as now, they are held predominantly by one Scottish-centric party - could have a profound influence on UK government policy. If Scotland joins the EU it would probably be allocated no more than ten MEPs (I'm not sure of the exact formula). This would give them 10 out of 715 (about 1.4%). Leaving aside the fact that MEPs have, shall we be kind and say, slightly less influence over EU affairs than Westminster MPs have over those in the UK, that doesn't seem a very good deal.

 

[Cloud Strife]

What do we think will happen to citizenship? Personally I'd rather keep UK citizenship and not accept a hypothetical independent Scottish citizenship.

Can't speak for the UK government, but the SNP were always clear that Scottish citizenship would be given to anyone that was a UK citizen with a connection to Scotland. I can't see the UK government stripping people of citizenship as well.

given things like the SNP's lunatic assertion that the UK will continue paying Scots' pensions post-independence.

Lunatic? These are liabilities incurred by the UK government. You should check the ECHR decison relating to Serbian pensions being paid to Kosovars - in general, if these pensions were paid into the UK system, then the UK system is responsible for paying them. In the event of divorce, I'd expect Scotland to pay a proportional amount, so around 1/10th of the liability.

Even after the Yugoslav Wars, with the exception of Serbia/Kosovo, the others all agreed to honour pensions paid into their respective systems. A Bosniak who paid social insurance in the SR Serbia will receive a pension from the current Serbia, for instance.

Scotland will not have to assume pension liabilities completely, because that's simply not how it works.

 

[Scotrail12]

Can't speak for the UK government, but the SNP were always clear that Scottish citizenship would be given to anyone that was a UK citizen with a connection to Scotland. I can't see the UK government stripping people of citizenship as well.

I wonder if we would be allowed to decline it though. I personally have no interest in a Scottish passport.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I wonder if we would be allowed to decline it though.

There would probably be a process for renouncing it, should you wish. However, it would depend on the rUK's actions, as they might automatically strip citizenship from anyone without a claim to it via parents/grandparents or via previous residency in the rUK.

 

[Berliner]

When Ireland (well, most of it) secured its independence, the EU did not exist and Ireland did not propose leaving one political union for another.

From a purely practical point of view, Scotland currently has 59 out of the 650 Westminster seats (9%). More than that, there may possibly be occasions when that 9% - especially if, as now, they are held predominantly by one Scottish-centric party - could have a profound influence on UK government policy. If Scotland joins the EU it would probably be allocated no more than ten MEPs (I'm not sure of the exact formula). This would give them 10 out of 715 (about 1.4%). Leaving aside the fact that MEPs have, shall we be kind and say, slightly less influence over EU affairs than Westminster MPs have over those in the UK, that doesn't seem a very good deal.

Apart from the fact that we would be a fully independent country? You will need to show me some countries who have left the EU to rejoin some of the old unions they were once part of in order for your argument to make any kind of sense. Who are the countries lining up to leave the EU that are so unhappy about having so few MEPs that they feel so oppressed or underrepresented? Is it perhaps them who are actually getting the better deal than Scotland being chained to the UK?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2022 ==

I wonder if we would be allowed to decline it though. I personally have no interest in a Scottish passport.

Who is forcing you to take a Scottish passport? Show me anywhere where it is even hinted this would be the case!

If you want it, it is there for you to take if the outcome is a Yes vote. If you don't want it then don't take it. You'll not be kicked out, you'll not become stateless. Either way, you'll live exactly as you do today as we will remain in the CTA anyway, or failing that (highly unlikely), you'll be given the complete freedom to remain where you are.

 

[johncrossley]

Other small countries recently independent from a huge, imperialist neighbour consider EU membership as very important. The Baltic States.

So Scottish desire for EU membership is entirely consistent with that.

 

[najaB]

The SNP are labouring under the delusion that the UK government will be paying the state pension of Scottish people after independence. They will also have to accept liability for a fair proportion of the UK national debt.

Could you please point me in the direction of those position papers, I haven't seen them yet. Thanks.

What do we think will happen to citizenship? Personally I'd rather keep UK citizenship and not accept a hypothetical independent Scottish citizenship.

This one I have seen. People would be free to keep rUK citizenship or take up Scottish citizenship.

 

[DustyBin]

Other small countries recently independent from a huge, imperialist neighbour consider EU membership as very important. The Baltic States.

So Scottish desire for EU membership is entirely consistent with that.

You’re surely not comparing the UK (or perhaps just England) with Russia are you? Given what’s going on in Ukraine right now I don’t think you’re doing your “cause” any favours to be honest.

It also seems somewhat ironic that the UK does so much to counter the threat to the Baltic States from their “huge imperialist neighbour”.

But still, “UK bad” clearly!

 

[johncrossley]

You’re surely not comparing the UK (or perhaps just England) with Russia are you? Given what’s going on in Ukraine right now I don’t think you’re doing your “cause” any favours to be honest.

It also seems somewhat ironic that the UK does so much to counter the threat to the Baltic States from their “huge imperialist neighbour”.

But still, “UK bad” clearly!

The point is, even countries that were really under the thumb and had a huge desire to be independent see EU membership as something to be aspired to. They don't think of it as losing their independence again.

 

[Falcon1200]

Lunatic? These are liabilities incurred by the UK government. You should check the ECHR decison relating to Serbian pensions being paid to Kosovars - in general, if these pensions were paid into the UK system, then the UK system is responsible for paying them.

Which demonstrates a complete and utter lack of understanding of how pensions work. The pensions currently being paid in the UK do not come from some pot of money stashed away in the past, they are paid from current taxation, therefore from Day 1 of Independence Scottish taxpayers become responsible for paying Scottish pensions.

Other small countries recently independent from a huge, imperialist neighbour consider EU membership as very important. The Baltic States.

You’re surely not comparing the UK (or perhaps just England) with Russia are you? Given what’s going on in Ukraine right now I don’t think you’re doing your “cause” any favours to be honest.

Indeed, a ridiculous comparison. Unless at some future time post-independence the UK intends to invade Scotland to recapture lost territory ?

Living in Scotland I am now dreading the next 16 months, all the old arguments and dissent will resurface, and the Scottish Government's focus will not be (if indeed it ever really was) on what really matters, ie health, education, transport, etc.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

None of the unionist parties are even entertaining the idea of a second vote, so they appear to be pretty quiet on what they actually want to offer, due to a lack of any material from their side, one must assume they just want the status quo to continue. As usual, they prefer to just moan about things being so bad, but come up with zero solutions of their own, other than, of course, "Independence bad"!

There's nothing to solve here. Scotland has already had a referendum. The only problem is that it appears that the SNP don't respect the people of Scotland enough to respect the result of the referendum that they already had.

How patronising towards the people of Scotland. This is our government, who won our election, who is proposing this vote. Their contempt for Holyrood is clear to see.

More correctly, the contempt the SNP clearly has for the people of Scotland and for how the people of Scotland voted in the referendum that has already taken place is clear to see.

 

[johncrossley]

There's nothing to solve here. Scotland has already had a referendum. The only problem is that it appears that the SNP don't respect the people of Scotland enough to respect the result of the referendum that they already had.



More correctly, the contempt the SNP clearly has for the people of Scotland and for how the people of Scotland voted in the referendum that has already taken place is clear to see.

Brexit makes that referendum irrelevant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2022 ==

Indeed, a ridiculous comparison. Unless at some future time post-independence the UK intends to invade Scotland to recapture lost territory ?

So how do you explain why recently independent countries want to be in the EU?

 

[DustyBin]

The point is, even countries that were really under the thumb and had a huge desire to be independent see EU membership as something to be aspired to. They don't think of it as losing their independence again.

Perhaps, but they didn’t really have any other option if they wished to be part of a larger economic and political union; Scotland does. When you look at what Scotland would be walking away from (versus the USSR) in order to join the EU it’s a completely different situation.

 

[johncrossley]

Perhaps, but they didn’t really have any other option if they wished to be part of a larger economic and political union

But *why* did they feel the need to be part of a larger economic and political union? Brexiteers don't see the need for joining such an organisation.

 

[GusB]

Which demonstrates a complete and utter lack of understanding of how pensions work. The pensions currently being paid in the UK do not come from some pot of money stashed away in the past, they are paid from current taxation, therefore from Day 1 of Independence Scottish taxpayers become responsible for paying Scottish pensions.

Remind me, what happens if a British citizen retires to Spain? Does that absolve the UK of its responsibility to pay their state pension? The situation is no different for anyone who had lived and worked in Scotland as part of the UK and who has already retired.

Clearly there will have to be some kind of arrangement in place for those people who are still working, and will have paid into both systems. Pension liabilities for a Scottish citizen who has not yet started working will be covered entirely by a Scottish pension system. That there isn't some pot of money stashed away isn't really relevant; people have still contributed to a scheme through National Insurance.

The actual details of how this works out will be subject to negotiation in the event of a Yes vote.

 

[DustyBin]

But *why* did they feel the need to be part of a larger economic and political union? Brexiteers don't see the need for joining such an organisation.

Because they were small countries with small economies who sought security (in several senses). Economically all remain net beneficiaries to this day.

None of this applies to the UK.

 

[najaB]

There's nothing to solve here. Scotland has already had a referendum.

So referenda are one-time only things? The question has been asked and answered for all time, the end?

The SNP and Greens made manifesto promises to hold a referendum in this parliament. If the electorate was opposed to another referendum then they would have voted for parties who weren't intent on holding one and we would have a different government.