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SNP to launch fresh Scottish independence campaign

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tomuk

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Pull the other one.
Lots of areas of EU competence are now done by qualified majority voting. It's a yes if 55% by number and 65% by population of the member states vote. Scotland would be 1 out of 28 countries and just over 1% population would have a great difficulty blocking any changes. You wouldn't have the veto and optouts the UK had.
In my workplace there are several EU citizens, and more than one person has left our office to go work elsewhere in the EU.
That maybe the case but very few people of the 447 million in the EU took advantage of freedom of movement, a couple of million, and even then the proportion was twice as prevalent amongst non UK citizens as UK ones. Also one of most popular countries for UK citizens was Ireland (still covered by CTA). The other popular flow one was retirees to Spain.

That's also not forgetting that their are still tourist and work visa, rights etc available the border isn't closed.
 
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tomuk

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Nobody has a right to a visa. That's kinda the point of them.
I phrased that badly what I meant is that there a various visa available depending on the country concerned, the agreed via free travel for leisure and business purposes and the various right granted to those people and their family members who had already partaken advantage of free movement.
 

MotCO

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OK, spin it all you like, but it doesn't look good when Scotland was the only part which got the total opposite to what it voted for and it won't be easy to defend in the upcoming campaign for independence. Especially as the tories will be the ones who made these choices and will be The ones defending them. Itll be even harder If we end up with a "No" figurehead aligned with another party trying desperately to defend tory policy.

I could agree with you if the EU Referendum was for Scotland only, but it was a UK Referendum, with a simple majority determining the outcome. If Scotland is aggrieved that some of Scotland did not get what it wanted, that is no different saying Fred Bloggs of 25 Acacia Avenue did not get what he wanted.
The UK doesn't even try to mitigate the loss of free movement, or even apologise. They just say "Tough sh*t, get over it" to the Scots.
Why do you think this sentiment only applies to Scots? There are lots of English, Welsh and NI people who also did not like the loss of Freedom of Movement, but equally a majority of the UK population voted to leave. Why should the Government appease the Scots?
How are Scottish people supposed to get back into the EU without independence? That is more important that being in the UK union. Probably quicker than waiting for the UK to get back into it.
So independence from the UK is good, but losing your new found indepence to the EU is also good? Double standards?

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Your right, its pointless trying to grow your economy and become wealthier. The Scots should just forget about it and accept their lot in the UK.

I'm more than happy for Scotland's economy to grow. But I just don't see how it will. It will lose the subsidy from the Barnett formula, it could lose UK Civil Service and defence jobs, it won't be able to manage its economy through monetary levers, it will have to pick up its share of the UK deficit, it may have to pay into the EU rather than be a beneficiary, and so it goes on.

I have not seen any proposals for Scotland to grow its economy - there may be some, but I have not seen them. Perhaps you could set these out?
 
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najaB

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There are lots of English, Welsh and NI people who also did not like the loss of Freedom of Movement, but equally a majority of the UK population voted to leave.
No. A majority of those who voted, voted to leave. Only 17.4 million out of 46.5 million (37%) actually voted to leave.
 

XAM2175

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There is a very real danger that EU influence over an independent Scotland surpasses that of the of the Westminster government under the current arrangement. That probably won't bother those whose primary motivation is a seething dislike of the English, but it should concern those who simply want more control over how their country is ran. If were an undecided voter I'd be seeking clarification is all I'm saying.
I'm being serious - you would (presumably) be fully paid up members, not like the "half-in half-out" arrangement the UK had.
Ah yes. Scotland in the EU would not automatically be entitled to the same opt-outs, of course, and I agree that in those areas clarification of the effects is something that undecided voters should absolutely have recourse to.

For that matter I would also sincerely hope that "seething dislike of the English" is a motivation for no more than a handful of people.

They did, and have (in coalition) a mandate to govern - But not to break up the UK, that is a separate issue altogether.
They won that mandate with a manifesto commitment of holding another referendum, the act of which does not in and of itself "break up the UK".

What is uncivil about that phrase ? They are little (7 MSPs out of 129), they are Green, and they are helping the SNP to govern (in the loosest sense of the word).
In that case, you mean that they are few.

That is surely one of the (many) Great Unknowns should independence happen. While I live in Scotland I am not Scottish and have no wish to become such, therefore I may end up as a non-EU citizen living in an EU country. What would that mean ? I have no idea, and I doubt anyone else from Nicola Sturgeon downwards has either.
So can I assume there have been no adverse post-Brexit affects, whatsoever, on Britons who have remained EU residents ? Sorry, but I remain to be convinced.
You would be a British citizen living in a country that has every intent of participating in the Common Travel Area, and as such you would have the same rights and and privileges as a Scottish citizen.

It is worth noting that EU member states retain control over their immigration policy for non-EU citizens, so even if for some reason it is not possible for Scotland to participate in the CTA it would still be entirely permissible for Scotland to grant British citizens those same equal rights and privileges - just as Ireland does. Certain I would wish to see either of these arrangements implemented.

it will have to pick up its share of the UK deficit
In international law it is in fact the case that a seceding state inherits none of the debts or obligations of the 'parent' - but I personally believe that Scotland should agree on a suitable contribution when the time comes, and I understand that the SNP takes the same position.
 

the sniper

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Scexit would be Brexit on steroids.

If nothing else it shows how similar the various types of Nationalist on this island are... Though I'm not sure how anybody who recognises Brexit as having been a bad idea can argue for 'Scexit'.
 

Berliner

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I could agree with you if the EU Referendum was for Scotland only, but it was a UK Referendum, with a simple majority determining the outcome. If Scotland is aggrieved that some of Scotland did not get what it wanted, that is no different saying Fred Bloggs of 25 Acacia Avenue did not get what he wanted.

You cannot compare a nation to a single person. That's part of the problem..the UK isn't a modern enough model to acknowledge that its different nations are just that...different. We all want or need different things. As the years go by those different things have outgrown the matters covered by devolution, so something needs to change. As there is no one proposing full federalism, and the SNP are a pro independence party, why is it any surprise this is where we are now?

Do you not think it looks bad, even a tiny bit, that when all is said and done, Scotland was totally ignored just 2 years after it was told it was a vital part of the UK? Not so vital that they couldn't negotiate a brexit deal that at least kept some of the benefits, even if only for Scotland, that we voted to retain?

We could have had a separate immigration or visa regime for Scotland. We already have a different tax, benefits and legal system (amoung other things), it really wouldn't have been much harder to allow something like FOM in some sectors which benefited the Scottish economy more, and made the caveat that residency could only be maintained in Scotland for those people, for example. Different Canadian and Australian territories, for example, have this exact system and still have open internal borders. It works. It allows territories to get the people they need most. The UK immigration system is totally abhorrent to the Scottish government and yet absolutely no effort has been made to address these concerns, again, even to just make them applicable to Scotland. That way mo one can accuse us of being a tail wagging the dog.

A different customs system, as seen in the Canary Islands, or the Åland Islands, for example, could have been proposed for Scotland. There was so much scope to at least try and bridge the massive divides caused and yet we got nothing. So many examples already in place today which could have been adopted or amended and yet...nothing. Just a one size fits all, shut up and get on with it, approach.
 

johncrossley

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Why do you think this sentiment only applies to Scots? There are lots of English, Welsh and NI people who also did not like the loss of Freedom of Movement, but equally a majority of the UK population voted to leave. Why should the Government appease the Scots?

The Scots were specifically told in 2014 to vote against independence to stay in the EU.

Most people in Northern Ireland retain freedom of movement, as most of them are entitled to an Irish passport.
 

DustyBin

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No. A majority of those who voted, voted to leave. Only 17.4 million out of 46.5 million (37%) actually voted to leave.

One can only presume therefore that those who didn’t vote were happy to go with the majority of those who did?

If nothing else it shows how similar the various types of Nationalist on this island are... Though I'm not sure how anybody who recognises Brexit as having been a bad idea can argue for 'Scexit'.

Brexit is the product of nasty and/or gullible little Englanders who wanted to “take back control” and keep out Jonny Foreigner at any cost. They were lied to by their leaders and most didn’t even know what they were voting for. It’s a mess.

Scottish independence on the other hand would represent the proud Scots protecting their national identity, and at the same time gaining the freedom to create utopia as set out by the ever-honest SNP. It will be great!

See the difference?
 
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AlterEgo

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If nothing else it shows how similar the various types of Nationalist on this island are... Though I'm not sure how anybody who recognises Brexit as having been a bad idea can argue for 'Scexit'.
Indeed, I consider anyone who attacks Brexit for the sheer blind faith shown by the electorate that "it'll all be okay, Britain can do this, let's answer the big questions later, independence now!" while not applying the same slide rule to the SNP and Indyref to be in a state of delusion. I've chuckled at the answers that "yes Scotland needs to join the Euro, but ah the rules say we just have to have a plan about that, so it's fine, we can kick the can down the road!" and "Oh yes Schengen, that would be very tricky with England on the other side of the border, but it's okay, we can kick the can down the road, rules say so!". What actually is iScotland's idea of its monetary policy? How long will you keep the pound, and let the BoE have such power over your independent economy? What, actually, would entering Schengen mean for an iScotland's largest trading partner? Will there be border posts and a fence? How, actually, is that going to work in 20 years?

Independence is fine by me, but work out exactly what it means first. A significant portion of Irish nationalists think unification is a brilliant idea but will readily admit that the concept of a unified Irish state (including what rights and protections the Unionists get) needs quite a lot of working out.

I voted Remain in 2016 because the status quo was okay and the Leavers didn't articulate exactly what they wanted, and, if was eligible (I'm not based in Scotland), I would vote No in any forthcoming Indyref for the same reason.
 

NorthOxonian

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If nothing else it shows how similar the various types of Nationalist on this island are... Though I'm not sure how anybody who recognises Brexit as having been a bad idea can argue for 'Scexit'.
It is an interesting one - though I suspect supporters of Brexit and of Scottish independence overlap more than is commonly believed. The towns of Fraserburgh and Peterhead, where until very recently the SNP were probably stronger than anywhere else in Scotland, actually voted more to leave the EU than remain, while Dundee was the city most supportive of both Scottish independence but least opposed to Brexit. And the most unionist areas (outwith the geographical anomalies of the Borders, Orkney, and Shetland) had the biggest majorities in favour of remaining in the EU - Edinburgh, East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire.

Have these trends weakened in recent years as the SNP have been more explicit in appealing to those who wish to rejoin the EU? Almost certainly. But I suspect there are still a lot of voters whose views on Brexit and "Scexit" do not fit the common narrative.
 

Berliner

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One can only presume therefore that those who didn’t vote were happy to go with the majority who did?



Brexit is the product of nasty and/or gullible little Englanders who wanted to “take back control” and keep out Jonny Foreigner at any cost. They were lied to by their leaders and most didn’t even know what they were voting for. It’s a mess.

Scottish independence on the other hand would represent the proud Scots protecting their national identity, and at the same time gaining the freedom to create utopia as set out by the ever-honest SNP. It will be great!

See the

I am very pro independence but vehemently against brexit. The two are not the same thing. They may both have followers with the same passion for their cause but the underlying reasons are polar opposites. People can be passionate about anything they want and it doesn't make them the same as each other.

I admit Scotland won't be a utopia. It wont be perfect and it will be costly and take a long time, but a fairer country can only come about if you are actually able to stand on your own two feet. Your post is obviously in jest, but the message from the SNP is positive. They are a far more inclusive group than anyone who was peddling brexit and there is very much an mindset from those pushing independence that Scotland wants to move forward and better itself and take up its own place on the world stage and choose its own path which is clearly different to the one the UK is forcing us down.

Brexit was the total opposite, it was about closing the UK off, scrapping rights, looking backwards to a time of imperial measurements and generaly making things more difficult for people. There was no white paper or government plans for brexit. It all came afterwards. It was a mess from the start and was backed by some very shady people who were only and are still only out to make themselves richer. The difference is night and day.

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and "Oh yes Schengen, that would be very tricky with England on the other side of the border, but it's okay, we can kick the can down the road, rules say so!". What actually is iScotland's idea of its monetary policy? How long will you keep the pound, and let the BoE have such power over your independent economy? What, actually, would entering Schengen mean for an iScotland's largest trading partner? Will there be border posts and a fence? How, actually, is that going to work in 20 years?

There is no obligation to join Schengen if your only land border is to a non member state. Hence why Ireland is not in schengen and has no plans to join up. Scotland would gain nothing from Schengen and there are no plans to join it either. Schengen is not the same as FOM.
 

DustyBin

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I am very pro independence but vehemently against brexit. The two are not the same thing. They may both have followers with the same passion for their cause but the underlying reasons are polar opposites. People can be passionate about anything they want and it doesn't make them the same as each other.

I admit Scotland won't be a utopia. It wont be perfect and it will be costly and take a long time, but a fairer country can only come about if you are actually able to stand on your own two feet. Your post is obviously in jest, but the message from the SNP is positive. They are a far more inclusive group than anyone who was peddling brexit and there is very much an mindset from those pushing independence that Scotland wants to move forward and better itself and take up its own place on the world stage and choose its own path which is clearly different to the one the UK is forcing us down.

Brexit was the total opposite, it was about closing the UK off, scrapping rights, looking backwards to a time of imperial measurements and generaly making things more difficult for people. There was no white paper or government plans for brexit. It all came afterwards. It was a mess from the start and was backed by some very shady people who were only and are still only out to make themselves richer. The difference is night and day.

My post was indeed in jest. However it may surprise you to learn that the reasons I (narrowly) decided to vote for Brexit are very similar to the reasons you support Scottish independence. With respect, you appear to have fallen hook, line and sinker for the “little Englander” narrative I referred to previously.

I actually have some sympathy for the independence cause as there are similarities to Brexit, certainly in terms of the emotional argument. I get it. The practicalities however are, in my opinion, very different.
 

AlterEgo

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There is no obligation to join Schengen if your only land border is to a non member state. Hence why Ireland is not in schengen and has no plans to join up. Scotland would gain nothing from Schengen and there are no plans to join it either. Schengen is not the same as FOM.
It is not possible to be in both the CTA and Schengen. That is why Ireland is not in Schengen - because joining would make a hard border with Northern Ireland an absolute requirement.

Also note that iScotland would need to apply to join the CTA as a new state, as it leaves the UK's jurisdiction. No doubt this would be granted, but it would certainly be conditional upon "no Schengen and no hard border". iScotland faces tough choices about free movement which most people are avoiding confronting head on - just like Brexit!

Ireland joined the EU before any such condition of Schengen membership was made a requirement of joining in 1999. Any opt-out would need to be negotiated by iScotland and agreed by all other member states.

I am very pro independence but vehemently against brexit. The two are not the same thing.
No, but they are absolutely subject to very similar intellectual and political fallacies, as well as a complete unwillingness to sketch things out properly and explain the very significant tradeoffs that will need to be made.
 

Berliner

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No, but they are absolutely subject to very similar intellectual and political fallacies, as well as a complete unwillingness to sketch things out properly and explain the very significant tradeoffs that will need to be made.

The Scottish government literally produced a huge white paper book the last time which was free to anyone who wanted it. I may be wrong but I'm sure it was available in many formats and other langauges too. There were countless TV debates, public events with debate, town hall meetings up and down the country and tonnes of material produced and promoted by a very broad church of independence supporting groups over the course of a 2 year campaign.This time they are once again releasing documents with their plans and have sought legal advice on matters too it is completely wrong to suggest they are "unwilling to sketch things out properly". There is absolutely no comparison with brexit here as the UK Government produced absolutely nothing of the sort and Continued to be secretive and obtuse about its plans even as they started negotiations.
 
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Yew

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Where that came up was with the suggestion that a federal solution could only work if England was to be broken up, which many English people including myself find unacceptable, and would prefer Scotland did secede fully than to concede to that.
I'll admit, I favour a federal solution, with more power devolved to the regions (probably following a German model, rather than the US), but I've never heard people object to it, as it's simply too obscure.
 

DustyBin

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It is not possible to be in both the CTA and Schengen. That is why Ireland is not in Schengen - because joining would make a hard border with Northern Ireland an absolute requirement.

Also note that iScotland would need to apply to join the CTA as a new state, as it leaves the UK's jurisdiction. No doubt this would be granted, but it would certainly be conditional upon "no Schengen and no hard border". iScotland faces tough choices about free movement which most people are avoiding confronting head on - just like Brexit!

Ireland joined the EU before any such condition of Schengen membership was made a requirement of joining in 1999. Any opt-out would need to be negotiated by iScotland and agreed by all other member states.

For which there is no precedent as per the article I linked previously. That doesn’t make it impossible of course, but it surely needs to be looked upon as a (major) potential stumbling block.

No, but they are absolutely subject to very similar intellectual and political fallacies, as well as a complete unwillingness to sketch things out properly and explain the very significant tradeoffs that will need to be made.

I wouldn’t actually argue with this. What tipped me towards voting for Brexit was my genuine belief that the UK’s “special” status was unsustainable in the long term, coupled with being told that I’d never get to vote on the issue again. It may sound strange, but most of the justifications I came up with in favour of voting remain felt rather selfish, and in my opinion short sighted. Whether I voted the right or wrong way (if there is such a thing) still remains to be seen.
 

Wynd

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Not sure how Scotland will manage to grow its economy and become wealthier by creating an artificial barrier with its overwhelmingly major trading partner ?

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So can I assume there have been no adverse post-Brexit affects, whatsoever, on Britons who have remained EU residents ? Sorry, but I remain to be convince



I could agree with you if the EU Referendum was for Scotland only, but it was a UK Referendum, with a simple majority determining the outcome. If Scotland is aggrieved that some of Scotland did not get what it wanted, that is no different saying Fred Bloggs of 25 Acacia Avenue did not get what he wanted.

Why do you think this sentiment only applies to Scots? There are lots of English, Welsh and NI people who also did not like the loss of Freedom of Movement, but equally a majority of the UK population voted to leave. Why should the Government appease the Scots?

So independence from the UK is good, but losing your new found indepence to the EU is also good? Double standards?

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I'm more than happy for Scotland's economy to grow. But I just don't see how it will. It will lose the subsidy from the Barnett formula, it could lose UK Civil Service and defence jobs, it won't be able to manage its economy through monetary levers, it will have to pick up its share of the UK deficit, it may have to pay into the EU rather than be a beneficiary, and so it goes on.

I have not seen any proposals for Scotland to grow its economy - there may be some, but I have not seen them. Perhaps you could set these out?

Oh its very different. I suggest you spend some time reading up on the democratic process. Scotland did not vote for Brexit, and so the outcome, is undemocratic.

Have either of you read the report that has been published?

You dont see how it will grow its economy when there is a report highlighting 10 countries that have done just that?

You say the word will as though you can see the future. None of what you say is a certainty.

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The Scottish government literally produced a huge white paper book the last time which was free to anyone who wanted it. I may be wrong but I'm sure it was available in many formats and other langauges too. There were countless TV debates, public events with debate, town hall meetings up and down the country and tonnes of material produced and promoted by a very broad church of independence supporting groups over the course of a 2 year campaign.This time they are once again releasing documents with their plans and have sought legal advice on matters too it is completely wrong to suggest they are "unwilling to sketch things out properly". There is absolutely no comparison with brexit here as the UK Government produced absolutely nothing of the sort and Continued to be secretive and obtuse about its plans even as they started negotiations.

You are correct, there is little to no comparison with Brexit, especially given that Scotland wants a shot at getting its EU membership back. Something that can not happen under the Union for the forseeable.

Those comparing this with Brexit either dont understand the subject, or are too intellectually lazy to bother trying.
 

Bletchleyite

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Oh its very different. I suggest you spend some time reading up on the democratic process. Scotland did not vote for Brexit, and so the outcome, is undemocratic.

I didn't vote for Brexit either. Is that undemocratic?

London didn't either (even though you Scots seem to hate its guts). That?

It was a UK-wide vote, the constituent nations had no relevance to it.
 

MotCO

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Oh its very different. I suggest you spend some time reading up on the democratic process. Scotland did not vote for Brexit, and so the outcome, is undemocratic.

Have either of you read the report that has been published?

You dont see how it will grow its economy when there is a report highlighting 10 countries that have done just that?

You say the word will as though you can see the future. None of what you say is a certainty.

The outcome was democratic. It was a simple majotrity of the UK, not little bits of it.

I agree that the future is uncertain. I would not want Scotland to fail, but I have not seen the evidence of how it will be an economic success. Perhaps you can enlighten me. Just a few examples will do. e.g. monetary policy, addressing the budget deficit, job creation etc.
 

Bletchleyite

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The outcome was democratic. It was a simple majotrity of the UK, not little bits of it.

I agree that the future is uncertain. I would not want Scotland to fail, but I have not seen the evidence of how it will be an economic success. Perhaps you can enlighten me. Just a few examples will do. e.g. monetary policy, addressing the budget deficit, job creation etc.

I think many do see it like Brexit, i.e. it can "fail" because the principle of independence is more important than some short-term financial pain. That in many ways is a more honest appraisal than the suggestion that England is financially dragging Scotland down, which it really isn't.
 

XAM2175

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I'll admit, I favour a federal solution, with more power devolved to the regions (probably following a German model, rather than the US), but I've never heard people object to it, as it's simply too obscure.
It does get a bit of notice here and there, and Gordon Brown has been pottering around tinkering with the concept for the last few years, but it's difficult because there are a bunch of different ways it could possibly be done and there doesn't really seem to be any will to seriously examine them.

At the very basic level, the establishment of an English Parliament with powers equal to that of the Scottish body resolves the West Lothian question because it leaves the current UK Parliament to only consider non-devolved matters. This would leave unchanged the fact that the vast majority of members of the UK Parliament would come from English constituencies, but there will emerge the question of the Lords.

Most federal systems are set up with measures that deliberately exaggerate the representation of smaller federal subjects in the upper house. Australia's Senate, as mentioned earlier, has 12 seats for each state and 2 for each self-governing internal territory. Canada's Senate is apportioned by region; 24 seats each for Ontario, Quebec, the Maritime provinces region, and the Western provinces region, then six for Newfoundland and Labrador together, and one each for Yukon, Nunavut, and the Northwest Territories. The German Bundesrat, meanwhile, applies a form of degressive proportionality where differences in population are only partially accounted for; a minimum of three seats for each state (including the city-states), but states with more than 2 million inhabitants receive four, more than six million inhabitants receive five, and more than seven million receive six.

The question then becomes, of course, how you would apportion such a system in the UK if you chose to reform the House of Lords along these lines. It seems probable that many people in Scotland - and also Wales and NI - would favour a system where receive more seats than strict proportionality would suggest, but I expect that the exact level of disproportionality would be a very fiercely contested topic when presented to the English electorate.

To me a system similar to Canada's could be a reasonable compromise - England would receive a significantly larger number of upper-house seats, but these would be apportioned to regions that are drawn up with regard to historic organisation and prevailing social and economic factors. This way England would remain a single polity, under a single English Parliament, but the regions can be better represented in federal matters and the composition of the upper house would be less likely to appear as one monolithic block for England towering over the other nations. You could even include a small number of seats for the Crown Dependencies and British Overseas Territories, if they wish to take them.

The first difficulty remains however that to actually adopt such a system you need to have all these discussions, and then decide on the option to go with, and then put it to referendum across the whole of the UK.

The second difficulty is the question of parliamentary sovereignty. A point of contention in the UK's present devolution arrangement is that the parliaments and governments of the devolved nations can be overridden by Westminster, at its whim and without recourse - while all of existing federal systems we've examined have written constitutions that clearly divide the legislative competencies of the federative states from the federal parliaments, and clear mechanisms by which the constitution can and cannot be amended. The UK Parliament has enacted such constitutions for a number of its former possessions, but imposing one upon itself would require an irrevocable renunciation of parliamentary sovereignty in order to guarantee to the states that that their competencies - or the federal structure itself - would not be infringed or altered by future acts of the federal parliament without their consent.

I said in my first post that I remain open to examining proposed solutions that improve with the UK's constitutional arrangements, and I stand by that statement - but I want to see meaningful and constructive changes, not just "we'll give you devo-max if you stop bothering us"
 

najaB

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Any opt-out would need to be negotiated by iScotland and agreed by all other member states.
I genuinely don't see this as being something that any other member state would object to, other than just for the sake of objecting. The Scottish situation - in a CTA area with a non-EU state and an non-Schengen EU member state isn't replicated anywhere else.
No, but they are absolutely subject to very similar intellectual and political fallacies, as well as a complete unwillingness to sketch things out properly and explain the very significant tradeoffs that will need to be made.
That remains to be seen. I expect the Scottish government to lay out detailed, credible plans in the run-up to the referendum. If they don't then I will vote "No" again.
London didn't either (even though you Scots seem to hate its guts). That?
Obviously I don't speak for all Scots, but neither I nor anyone I have spoken with genuinely hates the English people. Most have friends and/or family who live in and consider themselves English - both my brothers and their offspring, for example.

There are many though who resent what they perceive to be the "UK in name, English in practice" Government in Westminster though.
That in many ways is a more honest appraisal than the suggestion that England is financially dragging Scotland down, which it really isn't.
Not so much dragging down, as dragging in a direction that we don't necessarily want to go.
I said in my first post that I remain open to examining proposed solutions that improve with the UK's constitutional arrangements, and I stand by that statement - but I want to see meaningful and constructive changes, not just "we'll give you devo-max if you stop bothering us"
That's also my preferred solution.
 

Bletchleyite

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There are many though who resent what they perceive to be the "UK in name, English in practice" Government in Westminster though.Not so much dragging down, as dragging in a direction that we don't necessarily want to go.

And I share that resentment of that Government! One reason for me not to want Scottish independence is that it's likely to result in permanent Tory Government in the rUK. The negative of the SNP for the UK of a whole is that it has taken Labour votes away.
 

XAM2175

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And I share that resentment of that Government! One reason for me not to want Scottish independence is that it's likely to result in permanent Tory Government in the rUK. The negative of the SNP for the UK of a whole is that it has taken Labour votes away.
That's not really the case, though. If every single Scottish constituency that returned an SNP member in 2019 had returned a Labour member instead the Conservatives would still have a vast majority - 365 against 202 Labour plus 48 SNP. Even taking the six Tory constituencies in Scotland and delivering them up to Labour doesn't dent that. The only time it becomes relevant is if there is a very narrow gap between Labour and the Tories in England.

I'd also say that I'm not really happy with Scotland being viewed simply as a convenient reservoir of votes that's being a bit naughty at the moment and not doing as it's told.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd also say that I'm not really happy with Scotland being viewed simply as a convenient reservoir of votes that's being a bit naughty at the moment and not doing as it's told.

I did say "one reason".

I think this level of touchiness/paranoia (that several Scottish posters have shown in various ways) does suggest that a negotiated compromise (e.g. federalism) simply isn't going to work, because there has been a fundamental and irrevocable breakdown of trust.
 

Cdd89

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As time passes I wonder how popular the “rejoin EU” part of the independence offering will actually be.

Most people I speak to disagreed with Brexit but are glad it’s (sort of, kind of) finally settled; and are looking for incremental improvements rather than going back.

If Scots feel similarly then independence promises not one but two massive upheavals - and twice as much uncertainty as well. I struggle to envisage the voter with the appetite for that (though I do not doubt there is a significant base), especially as we desperately need to be focussed on economic growth right now.
 

Falcon1200

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Oh its very different. I suggest you spend some time reading up on the democratic process. Scotland did not vote for Brexit, and so the outcome, is undemocratic.

I didn't vote for Brexit either, and still wish it had not happened, but I accept the result, just as I accept a Scottish Government formed by a party I never have and never will vote for - That is democracy. In 2014 Scotland voted by an absolutely decisive majority to remain in the UK and therefore accept the supremacy of Westminster in non-devolved matters, and the decisions of the UK as a whole. Refusing to accept the result of votes you lost is the enemy of democracy.

I have not seen any proposals for Scotland to grow its economy - there may be some, but I have not seen them.

In 2014 the SNP's economic case for independence was based on oil - How times have changed ! I await with interest their proposals this time round, but I doubt it will include Scotland's expertise in building ferries, running trains, raising educational standards, dealing with drug addiction, etc, etc....
 
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