BBC reporting that Agency staff could cover strikes under law change

[birchesgreen]

How on earth does Simon the soldier suddenly know how to drive complex modern traction that take weeks to learn? And how does he know all the speeds and all the signals and braking areas for all the stations hell stop at? Not going to happen, not by a long shot!

Well he can learn while he is driving those trucks, oil tankers, working in the NHS or helping out at the Commonwealth Games (another thing i read the "Army" is being considered for).

 

[LAX54]

These "agency workers" better get themselves off to signal school this week then, once they've completed the 10 weeks training and the exams & observations required to pass. Should just be in time for the strike... oh wait.

Followed by at least 7 to 9 months learning if in a PSB, some take over a year to learn and pass out

someone posted about a 35 hour week, if railway staff did that, the railway would stop the very same day that was implemented ! When we went to 35 hrs, there was no way it could be covered, so all they could do was grant an extra rest day every 8 weeks in the roster, and then you normally get a call to say can you work a rest day please ?

 

[Hellzapoppin]

The question of patrolling and indeed most line side activities is now restricted by the imposed Red zone ban.
Even with line blocks the amount of time allowed is totally restrictive. The lads who patrolled my old patch would only get 4 minutes a time, not much you can patrol in 4 minutes.
I've also seen NR staff make mistakes, I've even been in a box trying to take a line block and had 2 signallers rowing about which signals should be used.

 

[Signal_Box]

Followed by at least 7 to 9 months learning if in a PSB, some take over a year to learn and pass out

someone posted about a 35 hour week, if railway staff did that, the railway would stop the very same day that was implemented ! When we went to 35 hrs, there was no way it could be covered, so all they could do was grant an extra rest day every 8 weeks in the roster, and then you normally get a call to say can you work a rest day please ?

I’m working 72hr weeks, week in week out to cover for the critical lack of staff at my local, and also covering other locations locally due to the same reason. I’ve been doing this for the last 2 years as have the majority of my colleagues.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2022 ==

I’ve seen it before with office staff undertaking guard roles during strikes, the first few days it’s a day out of the office, something exciting and different. But once they’ve been doing it for a few weeks plus having to do their own jobs on top - you’ve expected to do both, even though your helping out. The shine soon disappears and the resentment starts to build, that when incidents happen, unfortunately the office bods aren’t told of the very real prospect of jail time if they make a cock up, as “it’ll never happen, it’s only ringing a bell 2 times at each station”

 

[irish_rail]

Well he can learn while he is driving those trucks, oil tankers, working in the NHS or helping out at the Commonwealth Games (another thing i read the "Army" is being considered for).

Hmmm a little more to train driving im afraid to say. Dont believe everything the Daily Mail writes.

 

[Romsey]

I haven't read the whole of this thread. I have more to do with my life, just a quick dip in to view what was being said.

Are many of you actually supporting the railway and it's staff or just accepting what the "dear blonde leader" is spouting out?

There are no "agency" or "supply staff" in any operational safety related role on the railway. The only agency staff are engineering staff employed by specialist contractors and they undergo the same PTS, Rules and Regs and safety training as NR staff.

It takes 18 to 20 weeks to train someone to be a basic grade signaller, and many applicants don't complete the course successfully.
It takes maybe 20 to 30 weeks to train staff with railway experience to become a driver. Longer, much longer , for new entrants.
Then they need route training and ongoing assessment until they can drive by themselves.
The whole process can take over a year for a depot with one or two traction types and limited route knowledge. They are then mentored for the first year of driving solo.
There is also an considerable failure rate before appointments and reaching the reality of late night suburban services or 0230 starts

Most training of drivers and signalmen is for the fraction of 1 percent of the time w
hen things goes wrong.
Doing the basic driving or signalling is only maybe 20% of the training.

The UK and the rest of Europe run railways are the product of nearly 200 years of safety developments. That's why a railway accident is headline news.
On the roads a fatality may make the local paper or news broadcast.

As a railway enthusiast forum, I would have hoped for better understanding. The extensive training is for yours and every-ones safety.

The other thing which caught my eye, pay.
An average of £40k may be a reasonable estimate. As a Band 4C ( Technical specialist / management ) when I retired a few years ago my salary with London weighting was well short of that. I had an input to possession and worksite safety mentoring contractors and to engineering trains. I had to adhere to Rules and Regs as well as Train Planning Rules, Engineering Access plans and bear in mind the financial implication of possession over-runs or incidents and delay attribution.

After this I fully expect to be suspended by the moderation team for a while!

 

[Carlisle]

The need for solidarity funding will be great.

Indeed, even more so if this turns into a summer of discontent.

 

[Signal_Box]

I haven't read the whole of this thread. I have more to do with my life, just a quick dip in to view what was being said.

Are many of you actually supporting the railway and it's staff or just accepting what the "dear blonde leader" is spouting out?

There are no "agency" or "supply staff" in any operational safety related role on the railway. The only agency staff are engineering staff employed by specialist contractors and they undergo the same PTS, Rules and Regs and safety training as NR staff.

It takes 18 to 20 weeks to train someone to be a basic grade signaller, and many applicants don't complete the course successfully.
It takes maybe 20 to 30 weeks to train staff with railway experience to become a driver. Longer, much longer , for new entrants.
Then they need route training and ongoing assessment until they can drive by themselves.
The whole process can take over a year for a depot with one or two traction types and limited route knowledge. They are then mentored for the first year of driving solo.
There is also an considerable failure rate before appointments and reaching the reality of late night suburban services or 0230 starts

Most training of drivers and signalmen is for the fraction of 1 percent of the time w
hen things goes wrong.
Doing the basic driving or signalling is only maybe 20% of the training.

The UK and the rest of Europe run railways are the product of nearly 200 years of safety developments. That's why a railway accident is headline news.
On the roads a fatality may make the local paper or news broadcast.

As a railway enthusiast forum, I would have hoped for better understanding. The extensive training is for yours and every-ones safety.

The other thing which caught my eye, pay.
An average of £40k may be a reasonable estimate. As a Band 4C ( Technical specialist / management ) when I retired a few years ago my salary with London weighting was well short of that. I had an input to possession and worksite safety mentoring contractors and to engineering trains. I had to adhere to Rules and Regs as well as Train Planning Rules, Engineering Access plans and bear in mind the financial implication of possession over-runs or incidents and delay attribution.

After this I fully expect to be suspended by the moderation team for a while!

Totally agree with you, with regards to this being a enthusiast forum I think it’s anything but especially when it comes to us trying to retain our living and terms.

I do wonder how many stumble across the forum when they want a driving job (in the main) use the resource then never log on again.

Then you have people who seem to hate the fact we earn (and i mean earn) decent money and have a set of terms of employment, why I don’t know the railway isn’t a closed shop nor is it a partially hard job to do. This thread shows how easy some people think the jobs are, so why not jump on the gravy train yourself ?

I also expect to be moderated out of this discussion.

 

[D6130]

After this I fully expect to be suspended by the moderation team for a while!

I very much doubt that you will be suspended from the forum for telling the truth.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I haven't read the whole of this thread. I have more to do with my life, just a quick dip in to view what was being said.

Are many of you actually supporting the railway and it's staff or just accepting what the "dear blonde leader" is spouting out?

There are no "agency" or "supply staff" in any operational safety related role on the railway. The only agency staff are engineering staff employed by specialist contractors and they undergo the same PTS, Rules and Regs and safety training as NR staff.

It takes 18 to 20 weeks to train someone to be a basic grade signaller, and many applicants don't complete the course successfully.
It takes maybe 20 to 30 weeks to train staff with railway experience to become a driver. Longer, much longer , for new entrants.
Then they need route training and ongoing assessment until they can drive by themselves.
The whole process can take over a year for a depot with one or two traction types and limited route knowledge. They are then mentored for the first year of driving solo.
There is also an considerable failure rate before appointments and reaching the reality of late night suburban services or 0230 starts

Most training of drivers and signalmen is for the fraction of 1 percent of the time w
hen things goes wrong.
Doing the basic driving or signalling is only maybe 20% of the training.

The UK and the rest of Europe run railways are the product of nearly 200 years of safety developments. That's why a railway accident is headline news.
On the roads a fatality may make the local paper or news broadcast.

As a railway enthusiast forum, I would have hoped for better understanding. The extensive training is for yours and every-ones safety.

The other thing which caught my eye, pay.
An average of £40k may be a reasonable estimate. As a Band 4C ( Technical specialist / management ) when I retired a few years ago my salary with London weighting was well short of that. I had an input to possession and worksite safety mentoring contractors and to engineering trains. I had to adhere to Rules and Regs as well as Train Planning Rules, Engineering Access plans and bear in mind the financial implication of possession over-runs or incidents and delay attribution.

After this I fully expect to be suspended by the moderation team for a while!

Indeed I can't believe Haines hasn't cautioned Shapps/Morton etc that this won't help one iota in dealing with a strike of safety critical staff. Mind you perhaps all us retired folk will be contacted to see if we are available to help out!

 

[Sleepy]

But as has been stated in so many other threads, it is leisure customers filling trains, not commuters. Leisure passengers by definition have a choice of when or what mode of travel they use.

What proportion of daily commuters are white collar workers who can work from home? 75%? Higher?

This strike plays right into the government's hands and changes the agenda away from their appalling record and incompetence and all their other failings.

I wouldn't say numbers are as high as Pre-Covid but longer distance peak services on Great Eastern mainline are certainly carrying 85% plus of passengers you would have seen before, but as new stock means more seats it may seem much quieter than before. There is a large number people going to work in London 3 days a week but many are buying up cheaper Advance tickets instead of the newish flexi-season ticket. Leisure travellers in this part of the country have returned en mass and conservations seem to indicate staycations will be very popular again this year given air travel woes plastered over media recently.

 

[Signal_Box]

I very much doubt that you will be suspended from the forum for telling the truth.

I got moderated as I didn’t proved a linked source, the rules do seem a little heavy handed at times for what is a chat forum.

 

[Northerner]

I'd bring in the Armed Forces just like during Fire Brigade strikes

I'd happily wager you have no experience of the armed forces. Which incidentally have also had huge cutsbacks, but bringing them into this would be enormously troublesome. They may just understand how little they are paid in comparison to the real world.
I did!

 

[baz962]

Indeed I can't believe Haines hasn't cautioned Shapps/Morton etc that this won't help one iota in dealing with a strike of safety critical staff. Mind you perhaps all us retired folk will be contacted to see if we are available to help out!

Mr Haines posted something on LinkedIn about wanting to pay staff , but that the staff need to remember that the railway has lost passengers etc. Funny enough he is paid a huge salary. I don't know if the information is correct , but I read that ten out 15 of the highest paid civil servants all work for network rail.

 

[Horizon22]

I disagree with this strongly. A contingency guard is LESS competent than a newly qualified guard. A newly qualified guard has gone through months of training, the information is strongly in their heads and they have the most up to date rules, revenue and company specific instructions.

A contingency guard may have qualified ten years ago (as an example), and not worked a single train in that time except for the occasional assessment to keep them competent. They don’t keep up to date with rule changes, policies, or bother with revenue as they’re largely focusing on their own daily job and not someone else’s.

In the same regards that a newly qualified driver is usually more up to date with the Highway Code than someone who has been driving for many years. The TPE action has seen a higher than normal number of operational incidents.

Competency is essentially black and white. You are either comptent to a job or you are not. There’s no element of “less”.

It could be easier to lose competency as you might be less familiar but everywhere I’ve seen contingency staff, they’ve had the same assessment cycle as someone in a substantial role so that risk is no more or less. A lack of familiarity may lead to an increase in incidents but certain personal mitigations should be in place to resolve this.

 

[bramling]

Rail strikes: Agency workers could be called in to replace striking workers, report says

It comes as the Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers' union prepares to strike on 21, 23, and 25 June in a dispute over pay and redundancies.

news.sky.com

Totally agree with this aspiration. The railway is run for the public. A certain amount of staff need to wake up and smell the coffee. It is about time someone stood up to these Unions who quite clearly bully and dictate to passengers when or if they can travel. Our rail system in the UK is a true embarrassment and the sooner these Unions are put in their place the better for the travelling public.

Im not sure what coffee there is for staff to be smelling, to be honest. The government decided rail would be kept running in 2020, which given that certain people needed to get to their workplaces, and given concerns about sharing cars, was probably the right choice - indeed it’s a myth that trains were running around empty even at the height of the first lockdown, lightly loaded for sure to begin with, but not empty.

It then seems incredibly difficult to justify how billions can then be spent paying young low-risk healthy people to sit at home, in same cases for a year and a half, as well as all the money wasted on PPE, track and trace or the Nightingale hospitals, yet be unable to find money for pay. Same applies for other elements of the public sector, in particular - but by no means limited to - the NHS. In my view prioritising public-sector pay over subsidising discount dining is a sign of a responsible government, yet this one seems to splash the cash in odd ways.

I don’t think most staff are expecting nor asking for a bumper pay rise, but they do expect something which is competitive with the current high levels of inflation.

 

[Cowley]

As part of a general forum sort out we are moving all of these discussions into the one place, which you will now find here:

Rail strikes discussion thread

The forum team are aware that the subject of industrial action is a highly passionate topic. As such, in this thread only, we are now trialling allowing free debate on this subject. Please be advised that, due to the anticipated pace of discussion and the understandable passion on both sides of...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks everyone