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BBC reporting that Agency staff could cover strikes under law change

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Siggy1980s

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Half the posters on this thread would probably be volunteering to give it a bash :lol:, or claiming that playing various editions of train driving simulators would stand them in good stead to get up the front and get the country moving again.
That's what happens when surrounded by enthusiasts and self appointed railway experts....
 
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eldomtom2

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I see everyone is continuing to ignore that this proposed change is highly unlikely to have anything to do with drivers, signallers, etc.
 

Gems

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So what is it to do with please ?
It's to do with Grant Shapps and chums having something to say on the Sunday morning politics show. Anyone with half a brain knows an agency sap couldn't do any of the railway safety critical roles or even be allowed to. But hey-ho, sounds good in the Murdoch press.
 

Need2

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The units are taking the mick,don't care less and are immoral holding us all to ransome ( in these post Covid days when the economy, hospitality industry needs this likea hole in the head.
SHAME ON THEM
Why don’t they care less?
They don’t want members to strike and they don’t want to inconvenience anyone. It is far better to agree and compromise, unlike the government’s blanket spiel of no one is getting any rise.
What should the union do then, they are not holding anyone to ransom?
The union is their for its fee paying members and to get the best deals and t&c’s it can.
This is all if the government’s making, they’ve been itching for a fight for years and now, post covid, is the ideal opportunity.
They are peddling rubbish in a slow way of mis-informing the element of the general public who will believe anything they read.
I suggest, shame on you for believing it.
 

Gems

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Why don’t they care less?
They don’t want members to strike and they don’t want to inconvenience anyone. It is far better to agree and compromise, unlike the government’s blanket spiel of no one is getting any rise.
The union is their for its fee paying members and to get the best deals and t&c’s it can.
This is all if the government’s making, they’ve been itching for a fight for years and now, post covid, is the ideal opportunity.
They are peddling rubbish in a slow way of mis-informing the element of the general public who will believe anything they read.
I suggest, shame on you for believing it.
And lets not forget that this government bounces from confrontation with one industry to another. If it isn't nurses it's GPs. If it isn't teachers it's civil servants. They are a fractious lot.
 

Hellzapoppin

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Because legislation would allow agency staff to be employed regardless of the industry.
Whilst agency staff wouldn't be able to to do the work of drivers, signallers, train staff they could certainly do the work of other safety critical roles and to suggest otherwise is rubbish.
Most major railway project work is carried out by contractors using agency staff and they have to hold the relevant competences which does cross over into mice roles. Mtce use agency staff every day of the week.
 

theageofthetra

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On the latest announcement re agency workers it's obvious they haven't thought this through.

However, I do think the Government are looking to break the unions miners style. How many workers are willing to go on an all out (or multiple days) strike these days when inflation is high and mortgages need paying. That will be the Government thinking........
Plenty of older men in the job with no mortgages, no dependent kids.
 

nanstallon

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Job security is important for both sides. It allows forward planning of the role and helps aid any business planning. However, it still doesn't guarantee anyone a 'job for life' Trying to guarantee the future of a role is very different to someone being protected in the job.



It doesn't matter why or even how someone leaves the business. Nobody has guaranteed immunity from being removed from their role. I think suggesting that rail workers have a job for life is very disingenuous.
My question does matter. Some people are sacked for incompetence or some disciplinary reasons; others are sacked for some reason not their fault such as redundancy.
 

XAM2175

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These "agency workers" better get themselves off to signal school this week then, once they've completed the 10 weeks training and the exams & observations required to pass. Should just be in time for the strike... oh wait.
Not for the first time in this thread, your attention is drawn to the fact that the plan has been proposed in the full knowledge that it will not make a difference on the strike dates so far announced.

Anybody who happens to have a subscription to the Telegraph can read the original article here:

The summation by the BBC may also be helpful:
The government is preparing plans to repeal a legal ban on agency staff filling in for striking workers.
Transport Secretary Grant Shapps told the Sunday Telegraph a potential change in legislation could allow companies to hire temporary workers to cover some roles and prevent disruption.
Any intervention would not affect the rail strikes across Britain this month.
But Mr Shapps said changes could be brought in quickly to minimise future action in rail or other sectors.
Labour shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves told BBC One's Sunday Morning programme the proposals would make it "less safe to travel" and accused ministers of "sowing chaos and sowing division".
"The government is acting like arsonists rather than firefighters," she said.
A war of words between rail unions and ministers has been escalating since the RMT union announced three days of strikes, after talks about pay, terms and conditions, and redundancies fell through.
Mr Shapps said should the action continue then "further measures certainly would come in during this particular dispute, if it can't be resolved".
"We will be looking at the full suite of modernisation that's required," he told the Telegraph. "The country must not continue to be held to ransom."
The transport secretary said any change could involve secondary legislation, which can be signed off by ministers "very fast".
Meanwhile, writing in the Sun on Sunday, Mr Shapps warned rail workers who plan to strike this month that they will not be able to work overtime on subsequent days to top-up pay they will lose as a result of taking part in the action. It is is understood this is because rail companies may decide to run restricted timetables after the strike days.
Describing the strikes as a "disruptive and unnecessary stoppage", he wrote: "Rail managers and ministers are determined to ensure strikers cannot milk the system to maintain their income while inflicting misery on the public."
Mr Shapps' comments come less than a month after rail unions reacted with fury to a government threat to make strike action illegal unless a minimum number of train staff remained working during a walkout.
In response, RMT general secretary Mick Lynch said: "We already have the most restrictive anti-democratic trade union laws in Western Europe and if the government attempts to reduce our rights further, the RMT along with the rest of the trade union movement will mount the fiercest resistance possible."
More than 40,000 RMT members working for Network Rail and 13 train operating companies across Britain will strike on 21, 23 and 25 June.
The RMT says train company workers had been subject to "pay freezes, threats to jobs and attacks on their terms and conditions".
Network Rail plans to cut 2,500 maintenance jobs in a bid to make £2bn of savings, but the RMT argues such a move would make accidents more likely.
The union's members voted by 87% to 11% in favour of industrial action.
Northern Ireland Secretary Brandon Lewis criticised the strike action and told the Sunday Morning programme that staff in the rail industry were already "very well rewarded".
"The median salary in the rail industry is about £46,000… against an average wage in this country of closer to £26,000," he said.
Asked about the proposals to replace striking workers with agency staff, he said the government was "not taking anything off the table" but would make sure the railways were "running properly and safely".
In a separate dispute over pensions and job losses, the RMT's London Underground members will also strike on 21 June.
The RMT is calling it the biggest dispute for over three decades and put the industrial action down to the "inability of the rail employers to come to a negotiated settlement".
Train and tram drivers, part of the Aslef union, are also set to strike in three locations this month.
Aslef's general secretary Mick Whelan called Mr Shapps' idea "impractical" and asked where the agency workers would come from.
"You can't just ship in a load of signallers and train drivers," he said adding: "If they are not working for the railway now they are either not medically fit, have been dismissed or don't want to do it anymore."
Christina McAnea - general secretary of Unison - predicted the move would prompt a backlash.
She warned that her union, which represents public service workers including nurses and social workers, would be "campaigning - doing more than campaigning - to make sure that it doesn't happen".

Analysis by Simon Browning, transport reporter:
Days are passing quickly until this first wave of crippling train strikes start, with no current sign of a resolution.
The suggested legislative changes won't happen for the first wave of strikes in just over a week, but if there are more, Grant Shapps hopes agency workers can fill gaps.
But 40,000 workers are walking out, and 10,000 more on London Underground.
There are a few problems.
Firstly, the UK economy has a huge recruitment problem at the moment. There are record numbers of vacancies, and not enough workers to fill them. So finding 50,000 agency workers for the railways when we can't fully resource UK airports could be a challenge.
Secondly, both sides of this fractious industrial dispute have said that safety problems with agency workers make this plan impossible. Unions and the rail industry say safety-critical roles like signallers, guards, drivers can't easily be covered. They say these workers don't work for agencies, they already work in the railway.

ASLEF General Secretary Mick Whelan is quoted:
"You can't just ship in a load of signallers and train drivers," he said adding: "If they are not working for the railway now they are either not medically fit, have been dismissed or don't want to do it anymore."
 

ComUtoR

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My question does matter. Some people are sacked for incompetence or some disciplinary reasons; others are sacked for some reason not their fault such as redundancy.

Which shows it isn't a 'job for life' It's just another phrase that gets chucked around against rail workers with no real meaning.
 

birchesgreen

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Surprised there haven't been calls for the Army to step in and drive the trains, its usually what happens.
 

Craig1122

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And lets not forget that this government bounces from confrontation with one industry to another. If it isn't nurses it's GPs. If it isn't teachers it's civil servants. They are a fractious lot.
Criminal barristers currently taking part in industrial action and balloting over more measures I believe. Hardly a group that's traditionally associated with industrial unrest. As well as junior doctors considering strike action. It's almost like the government is the common factor here!
 

Need2

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Wonder when the flag waving colonel blimps will demand strikers are sent to Rwanda.Hitler alive and well in commuter land.
And someone will say they earn enough and should pay for their own ticket.
 

dk1

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That's what happens when surrounded by enthusiasts and self appointed railway experts....
You beat me to it ;)

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Surprised there haven't been calls for the Army to step in and drive the trains, its usually what happens.
Me too. Many of these threads could well suit an Ealing comedy.
 

Berliner

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Do most safety-critical roles (on the railway anyway) not require the person to pass a series of psychometric tests and a medical before they are even enrolled in the extensive, several months-long training and passing out process? I can't see there being an abundance of guards, drivers, or signallers ready to be rolled out and even if these roles are filled with hastily trained agency staff, will they be made aware of the legal ramifications on them personally if they mess up and how painful it could be without union support if they did (of course union membership is not mandatory for anyone, but they will represent members when things go wrong). We seem to be sliding towards being a country where trade union membership will soon be illegal. Mind you, judging by a lot of comments found on these boards, many would likely rejoice at that!
 

jayah

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They are always at war with workers though. Whether it's unions, the police, GP's, nurses, teachers, civil servants and now train drivers are the latest bogeymen for the government and their sycophants in the press.

THe type of middle class professions that would have made up much of the Tory vote in the past. Thatcher only targeted the lowest hanging fruit.
Right, the government which has given you all these protections and benefits is at war with the workers and by definition most of the voters.

That doesn't make sense or stand up to scrutiny.

A more accurate appraisal would be to say that the government is bribing voters by giving them more legal entitlements, paid for by employers.

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Given there have already been three Saturdays of strike action and no Sunday working for fifteen weeks for TransPennine Express conductors, a further three days of action in just over a week's time already leaves some staff feeling very exposed and concerned. The need for solidarity funding will be great.
Death by a thousand cuts.

At least in 1926 they had a proper strike - all out. That lasted about a week.
 

Falcon1200

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Whilst agency staff wouldn't be able to to do the work of drivers, signallers, train staff they could certainly do the work of other safety critical roles and to suggest otherwise is rubbish.

Mtce use agency staff every day of the week.

Railtrack used, in effect, agency staff to do its maintenance work. Network Rail brought maintenance in house, for very good reasons.

Regardless, as well explained here agency staff will not be working as Signallers, Drivers, Guards, or also in other roles such as Mobile and Local Operations Managers, Operations and Electrical Controllers. Those staff are essential to run the railway.

Shapps should be asked exactly what roles on the railway he would expect agency staff to cover.
 

Hellzapoppin

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Perhaps I should have said that NWR use competent agency staff to cover safety critical roles every day of the week. Safety critical isn't just restricted to the list of roles you've mentioned.
 

ANorthernGuard

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Right, the government which has given you all these protections and benefits is at war with the workers and by definition most of the voters.

That doesn't make sense or stand up to scrutiny.
Where do you think all these rights came from...unions and their members fighting for their beliefs. Jayah are you really that naive or just a troll? I really would like to know!
 

LAX54

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Totally agree with this aspiration. The railway is run for the public. A certain amount of staff need to wake up and smell the coffee. It is about time someone stood up to these Unions who quite clearly bully and dictate to passengers when or if they can travel. Our rail system in the UK is a true embarrassment and the sooner these Unions are put in their place the better for the travelling public.
Agency staff covering Signallers, "umm which button do I press, or is it this lever or that lever.."? probably find that agency staff would be on more that the Signallers rate of pay ! Agency staff covering PWay and S&T techs, there is a recipe for disaster, remember the dispute is NOT about pay alone.
Cut staff..means less maintainence, on some lines Patrolling used to be 3 times a week, then down to once a week, as they did away with staff, then once every two weeks,
some Main lines are now just once a week, which has brought its own issues, report of rough rides, caution imposed, delays, waiting Pway to inspect.
Maybe the Government need to wake up and smell the said coffee, and realise you cannot keep cutting staff !
Just remember Hatfield !

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Me personally, I blame Unions and rail staff. By all means it is important to have all good round conditions but they are paid more than enough and have good conditions. It is just sheer greed all this. They are driving trains… they aren’t brain surgeons, air traffic controllers or fighter pilots. They need to get a grip. If they aren’t happy in their job then get another, don’t affect the livelihood and social life of many thousands who rely on the service.
Most Signallers around the Country are on abour £26K, there are PSB's and ROCs where the wage is higher, but there is not that many staff overall

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Signallers have to follow a rule book. Its quite complicated.
mine was 4 volumes, then the Special box instructions which was 45 pages, then there is the Sectional Appendix that has local rules that override the RB.
 
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irish_rail

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Surprised there haven't been calls for the Army to step in and drive the trains, its usually what happens.
How on earth does Simon the soldier suddenly know how to drive complex modern traction that take weeks to learn? And how does he know all the speeds and all the signals and braking areas for all the stations hell stop at? Not going to happen, not by a long shot!
 

LAX54

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Perhaps I should have said that NWR use competent agency staff to cover safety critical roles every day of the week. Safety critical isn't just restricted to the list of roles you've mentioned.
They do, and whilst I was working in a PSB, Agency staff were a continuous nightmare, when they were taking Line Blocks, trying to work level crossings on local control !
 

Signal_Box

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At the last LNWR strike, a contingency manager opened doors on the Rugby flyover as it had stopped at the signal.

Absolutely every tiny failure will be reported by drivers this time, no benefit of the doubt

Funny how that same thing happened during the 2009 London midland strike as well…….urban myth I think.
 
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