BBC reporting that Agency staff could cover strikes under law change

[DynamicSpirit]

People will support an erosion of employment rights when it applies to something that they feel opposed to without realising that at the same time they are eroding their own and everyone else’s employment rights. They might be content to limit action taken by railstaff but might be less happy when they find it applies to something they actually do support.

I assume the 'erosion of employment rights' that you are referring to is the Government's announcement that they plan to reverse the legislation that prevents businesses from using agency workers to cover if employees go on strike. But why on Earth shouldn't businesses be allowed to do that?

I myself am self-employed. If I decided to withdraw my labour from my customers, they would, quite rightly, simply look for someone else who can do the job instead. If I decide I want more money for doing the same job, then I could tell my customers I want more money, but once again they are perfectly at liberty to decide that they would rather hire someone else instead. And that's how it should be. Likewise, a few weeks ago, I had the misfortune to get a builder to do some stuff on my house, who then disappeared, leaving a half-finished job. I did the obvious thing and brought in someone else to (successfully) finish the job. Why should it be any different if I was an employer? (I realise that's not an exact analogy to a strike, but in the context of discussing whether you should be able to get someone else to fill in, it's pretty close).

 

[Agent_Squash]

It would be very convenient for the Government if they could use strike action as an excuse to make the role of the guard non safety-critical, and moving to agency staffing in general. Smother it all over with an order of new trains to allow DOO and they’ve got what they’ve wanted for years.

Very concerning from a safety perspective - I wouldn’t feel as safe as a passenger certainly.

 

[DanNCL]

My own view is that the recently agreed deal between ScotRail and ASLEF should be offered to all staff of all grades at all TOCs. Considering the current financial situation asking for anything more than that is simply greed.

The fact of the matter is that the money simply isn't there. Yes the reason the money isn't there is because of Tory incompetence/corruption, but ultimately that's the situation we're all in and there's nothing any of us can do about it until the next general election unless by some miracle Boris and chums are ousted before then.

I rather suspect the Aslef members in those operators you mention won't be prepared to become scabs.

I rather suspect many of them couldn't care less if they're being paid for it!

Why is it worrying the government trying to prevent rest day working? Your lucky if there is more than a few uncovered shifts a week never mind a day. It really is urinating into the wind. I'm sure whoever thought it up though thinks it's a great idea. But I'll bear it in mind when I am asked if I would do the extra hour to finish a job.
The thing is this. Once again Shapps has no idea how the railway works. If you want to ban overtime go right ahead, but the railway runs on overtime. This will backfire on the government because the RMT can adopt tactics to compensate. But it also allows someone like me who won't be striking to play a bigger role by not covering overtime either. Well done Mr Shapps, next time you come up with a great idea try and write it down somewhere better than the back of a fag packet.

Maybe not at your TOC. Some TOCs can't even run 50% of their weekday timetable, nevermind weekends, without relying on overtime.

 

[KendalR]

Quite laughable that Grant Shapps is threatening to ban overtime. He does that and railway grinds to a halt anyway. One PSB I know runs on nearly 40% of signaller turns covered by overtime.

The only area I know where there could be readily available and qualified staff would be in some specific maintenance areas. Plenty of contractors have staff on their books with PTS, COSS etc. Not going to happen though if there's no signallers to grant the line blocks or possessions.

 

[Tangent]

What "major military operations on the continent" are likely to be taking place then?


This sounds like that nonsense about how the UK railway network including branch lines was of vital importance infrastructure wise during ww2. (Spoilers, it was found to be so inefficient that logistics simply didn't use most of the small branches)

Presumably, the kinds of operation that involves deploying armoured units, as the MoD have carried out exercises at moving them through the Channel Tunnel before. Current events make it pretty clear that NATO members have to be able (or have to be seen to be able) to respond to developments on the alliance's eastern frontiers. The disappearance of UK forces from Germany makes this logistical task harder.

 

[Suraggu]

I think some people are misinterpreting what schapps said about not doing overtime following strikes.

From the bbc…https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61773437

“Meanwhile, writing in the Sun on Sunday, Mr Shapps warned rail workers who plan to strike this month that they will not be able to work overtime on subsequent days to top-up pay they will lose as a result of taking part in the action. It is is understood this is because rail companies may decide to run restricted timetables after the strike days.”

Rail companies don't have a choice but to run restrictive timetables after the strike days because they are unable to start up a full service timetable due to the overlap of strike days....

But a Cabinet Minister wouldn't want to use facts to get away in a good statement.

 

[Leuvenn]

If I decide I want more money for doing the same job, then I could tell my customers I want more money, but once again they are perfectly at liberty to decide that they would rather hire someone else instead

Fair point. I know many in hospitality that have forgone overtime to work for an agency. The agency pay is often double the basic rate, so it's a no brainer. Except when you consider it on a weekly basis. You're putting in more hours to effectively get less.
Long and short of it is that the only effective way of getting a significant pay increase (for most sectors) is through collective bargaining, or which strike action is key.
Whether the employer is willing to swallow the pill of wage increases depends on whether they can effectively run without their employees.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that requires house prices to remain stable in nominal terms.

Given that the house price inflation is caused by a real shortage and not some financial effect, this is unlikely.
More likely house prices will just inflate in lock step with general prices.

Yes, to take advantage of that inflation it will be necessary to build more houses. Lots more. And not just super-profitable 4-bed detached, but smaller homes like space efficient 2-bed terraces at reasonable prices. They are being built but not in sufficient numbers, and they need to be built for both purchase and social rent.

 

[Ivor]

Where are all these agency staff going to come from may I ask.

There are a few established ‘railway agencies’ around with hundreds of zero hours staff on their books one of which alone covers London/SE/SW/Anglia regions & one is dedicated to the London Overground, some Main Line stations & parts of the London Underground.

Many agency staff can go weeks/months with no or very few shifts & the agencies are often recruiting, it’s a numbers game to cover all the bases when/if required.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite laughable that Grant Shapps is threatening to ban overtime.

I don't believe that's what he actually did. What he seems to have said was that TOCs are unlikely to operate a full service on the days between the strikes and as such this will likely mean overtime is not necessary and thus not offered.

 

[Siggy1980s]

Agency Signallers and Drivers. Yeah. Righty ho!

 

[nanstallon]

My feeling is 'a plague on both your houses'. I have no time for the RMT, who are way too political, and I don't like being held to ransom. Railway workers are well paid, and maybe a pause in their pay rises is justified. Nobody has any right to a job for life, or to insist on working the same old way for ever. The taxpayer, often on a much lower income, deserves some consideration.

But there are limits to what agency staff can do. Do you really want to be on a train controlled by people who don't regularly work as signallers? How many agency staff can drive trains, and are up to date with the training? And how can the government stop people doing overtime on a non-strike day? Apart from the fact that such legislation would mean even fewer trains running on those days, this move has a nasty whiff of authoritarianism.

 

[Surreytraveller]

In reality all agency staff are going to be able to do is provide customers with information they probably could have found out themselves on the web anyway.

And that information will be wrong

 

[Agent_Squash]

Agency Signallers and Drivers. Yeah. Righty ho!

Grant Shapps probably thinks you can train them up on Simsig!

 

[321over360]

As someone who has previously worked as a train dispatcher at a central London rail terminal, there is no way agency staff can safely cover strike roles, to be deemed competent to dispatch trains from a platform takes weeks of training before you are assessed to see if you follow the standard required to perform the role correctly, the same goes with guards who again have several months training before they are qualified, same with train drivers themselves, again they need months of training along with numerous tests plus to have full route knowledge for where they are driving, they have to be "signed" for routes, so say a the GA drivers who don't strike are only signed for the GEML, that would mean zero GA trains could run the WAML services but then they may only be signed for parts of the GEML which again means certain routes wouldn't be operative, so I don't see how agency staff can cover any strike work unless they are correctly trained, and know the rules every TOC has, say train dispatch, different methods

 

[ExRes]

Agency Signallers and Drivers. Yeah. Righty ho!

Both of which are being made up through anti Government hyperbole, this entire thread should be on the 'Speculative' forum

 

[Siggy1980s]

Grant Shapps probably thinks you can train them up on Simsig!

Well, if ever it does happen, (which it won't), I would advise the travelling public to not use the railway whilst under the operation of agency staff.

 

[ComUtoR]

I’m an agency worker of several years & to answer your question an agency is asked to fill positions normally weekly by the TOC if staff is required & “then someone turns up”

On the very rare occasion a TOC manager or supervisor may request a certain agency worker that they’ve been pleased with previously.

TOC management can contact the agency to say “we don’t want that person here again” hopefully that’s also rare but I have seen it happen.

Cheers for the reply. As a follow up, who manages your competency ? at My TOC the Agency staff are assessed using our internal process but beyond that I don't know how it's maintained or regularly assessed. Do you have a competency file ? If you messed up, do you just not come in the next day and the Agency send someone else ?

Cheers in advance.

Nobody has any right to a job for life,

Can you explain this further please. I've seen it said a few times but never really understood it. How do railway workers have a 'job for life' ? I know at least one who lost their job this year.

or to insist on working the same old way for ever.

They aren't. Change is welcomed and terms have changed considerably over time. Change comes during pay negotiations. NEw terms are added or removed. The Gov. are currently stopping many of those changes.

 

[nanstallon]

I believe that RMT are demanding job security, as part of their claim. As for someone having lost his/her job this year, why was he/she sacked?

 

[irish_rail]

I rather suspect many of them couldn't care less if they're being paid for it!

Take it from me (a driver) for most,this would be a line not worth crossing. Also how do you train up these drivers on the requisite traction. Who is going to train them on 80x traction or whatever?

 

[O L Leigh]

(I realise that's not an exact analogy to a strike, but in the context of discussing whether you should be able to get someone else to fill in, it's pretty close)

You’re right, it’s not a good analogy.

You are, by your own definition, self-employed, which means that you are your own employer. Therefore, all matters that are normally decided by collective bargaining (hours, conditions and, to an extent, pay) are decided by you and you alone. I appreciate that this is at least in part dictated by market forces, but then so is the employed job market. Each job will have a “rate for the job”, which is why you won’t find many cleaners picking up £100k pa, and so will be the case in whatever field you work in, whether that be plumbing or software engineering. Your fees/prices will be reflected broadly by everyone else in your field.

The relationship that you have with your customers is akin to but not the same as the relationship with an employer. You may feel it necessary to vary your conditions as part of the process of securing work, but that will be by negotiation with the customer and subject to agreement. However, you still retain the final say in whether or not you are prepared to make such variations, just as they have the right to agree whether or not to accept your terms. If no agreement is reached then you part company. In this instance they are no different to rail customers, whether passengers or freight. If we do not offer the service they want at a price they are prepared to pay then they will look for alternatives.

 

[ComUtoR]

I believe that RMT are demanding job security, as part of their claim.

Job security is important for both sides. It allows forward planning of the role and helps aid any business planning. However, it still doesn't guarantee anyone a 'job for life' Trying to guarantee the future of a role is very different to someone being protected in the job.

As for someone having lost his/her job this year, why was he/she sacked?

It doesn't matter why or even how someone leaves the business. Nobody has guaranteed immunity from being removed from their role. I think suggesting that rail workers have a job for life is very disingenuous.

 

[175001]

Ironic how the Tory MP for Hatfield, the one and only Grant, wants to use agency staff during the strike, which will threaten the safety of your railway.

The very same Hatfield that saw 4 people die, caused by.. "insufficiently-skilled work was causing more rails to break“.

Oh the irony

 

[Ivor]

Cheers for the reply. As a follow up, who manages your competency ? at My TOC the Agency staff are assessed using our internal process but beyond that I don't know how it's maintained or regularly assessed. Do you have a competency file ? If you messed up, do you just not come in the next day and the Agency send someone else ?

Cheers in advance.

Over the years out of the blue I’ve had a few visits from an agency supervisor & that only entails checking correct uniform & a few ‘test’ questions re my role & functions, it’s nowhere near in depth, it’s box ticking. In the first two years I saw nobody!

I have no competency file, even when I’ve handled trespassers involving line closures, emergency services whilst working on my own & even been assaulted the duty of care consists of along the lines of……..

“oh dear, are you ok? You’ll make sure you complete the incident report won’t you? You have reported this to the TOC on-call manager haven’t you?”

Incidents for agency staff including myself over the years are normally ‘batted away’ by the agency & the actual TOC management.

And yes following any incidents unless the agency worker ends up in hospital as an example we attend the next shift.

 

[StevenF]

The BBC, is reporting, that the government, is looking at repealing, a legal ban, so they can bring in legislation, to allow, the TOC’s etc, to bring in agency workers and temporary staff, in future strikes, beyond the June ones, so as to avoid disruption, as words seem to be escalating between the government and RMT,(im not good at links)its been reported on BBC news page. I think this good move, and that the government shouldn’t and wont give into the RMT demands. Im against the strikes on principle etc, as it will be very damaging for the railways, and they will shoot themselves in the foot.

The agency staff "threat" will come with caveats because you can only employ non railway staff in certain roles.It might be possible to use a training agency to train staff and get round some of it.For instance , agency staff have been used for years to check tickets at stations when train companies have a fares checking purged. However, really the RMT and other unions utterances should perturb the public by there extremism.The people who will suffer are the train travelling public and the taxpayer (even if you don't travel by train the tax payer is involved).
Loads of people intentions to travel will have been influenced and may not use the train as intended. For example, it is my wife and I'm Golden Wedding next September. We were planning an Orien Express type holiday starting by rail from home town to London to join Eurostar.Because of uncertainty, we will probably fly to Europe to plug into holiday.
The units are taking the mick,don't care less and are immoral holding us all to ransome ( in these post Covid days when the economy, hospitality industry needs this likea hole in the head.
SHAME ON THEM.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Maybe separate from the agency staff argument, but a friend of mine, 2 years retired from a train crew role, had a phone call out of the blue last week from his former employer asking if he wanted to return to work.

 

[ChrisRS]

These "agency workers" better get themselves off to signal school this week then, once they've completed the 10 weeks training and the exams & observations required to pass. Should just be in time for the strike... oh wait.

 

[choochoochoo]

On that last point, you obviously missed the large numbers of people who worked from home for much of the last two years. I'm sure they can do the same whilst the railway is on strike. Despite what the staff might think, the ability to bring the country to a halt is just not there.

There’s this misconception that the trains were empty only because people were working from home.

They were also empty because people were being paid 80% of their salary to stay home. That’s no longer the case !!

Think proof in point was the chaos caused by the RMT action by tube staff after jubilee weekend.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Railway workers are well paid, and maybe a pause in their pay rises is justified.

Some are well paid, many aren't. The right wing media love to paint the strikes as about just those on good wages but that is far from the case. People like cleaners, customer support staff and often station staff are often not on these high wages you see banded about. As for a pause in pay rises, many specifically have had exactly thay over the last 2 or 3 years (also to be clear, your pay not increasing with inflation means you are getting a pay cut, so you aren't saying they shouldn't have pay rises, you are actually saying they should accept a pay cut).

 

[320320]

Grant Shapps probably thinks you can train them up on Simsig!

Half the posters on this thread would probably be volunteering to give it a bash , or claiming that playing various editions of train driving simulators would stand them in good stead to get up the front and get the country moving again.