It's a little off topic but are you aware that hippos secrete a "pink" goo from their skin ? Its used to keep their skin from being damaged in the harsh sun.
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Transpennine woes and a moan...
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It's a little off topic but are you aware that hippos secrete a "pink" goo from their skin ? Its used to keep their skin from being damaged in the harsh sun.
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Facing Back
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Do you know I'm actually going to believe that. I've had a couple of glasses of wine. I will find a way to mock you if my vet friend tells me i'm a lunatic. Well off topic now so I will stop but thank you for the laugh on what is quite a serious subject.It's a little off topic but are you aware that hippos secrete a "pink" goo from their skin ? Its used to keep their skin from being damaged in the harsh sun.
Not to the level there is now.
Facing Back
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I'm not disagreeing with you - but before the government took over, before covid even, the Transpennine service was beset with issues - short trains, cancellations, overcrowding. I travelled from Leeds to Liverpool on one Sunday and ended up going to York first so I could actually get on a train before it was too full take on new passengers.
What is different? Same issues, different reasons? Its a lovely route but even in first class getting a seat is so very hit and miss
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
I have lost a lot of route competency. Not because of COVID, but because of the restriction by depot to certain chunks of the route that was introduced with the 2018 timetable. Why does a service from Newcastle to Liverpool need assists, pass rides and crew changes at York, leeds and manchester Victoria where previously liverpool and newcastle based crews worked the train throughout? Because it is cheaper apparently and more efficient. Personally i do not see how sourcing 4 crew sets on a 3 hour journey is more efficient than a single crew working throughout but thats where we are. I can no longer offer the flexibility of diversionary routes during disruption or engineering work blockades or cross cover other depots because of the loss of route knowledge i have sustained means i can only work a small part of the network compared to 5 years ago and on only 2 traction types. COVID hasnt helped with training, granted. But the plans and working methods from 2 years before that has created the mess we are in and from where in the train I am sat, it looks like no one cares because the DfT are still paying the management fee and the shareholders are still getting their £60 million. Its the poor customer that is being taken for a ride (or not in most cases) and the front line staff are struggling to cope with the daily cancellations, the grief and hassle we receive as a result, the strain of the industrial relations and ongoing strikes and work to rule are all taking their toll. I for one am considering leaving the industry after 20 years service, i will be heartbroken if that day comes but sadly this rail industry and in particular this TOC has changed massively in the last 5 years, is not the customer driven service role i joined and wanted to work in. How on earth TPE won operator of the year is a complete mystery to those of us who actually work the trains…..
Egg Centric
Established Member
Dammit, why do the easy answers never work
In principle if this were longer lasting it could be done though, right? Unit swaps between depots being an exception.
They are completely different issues - delve into the detail.
Overcrowding: 3 car sets (180 seats) across some of the biggest cities in the UK. 185s were supposed to be 4 car, who said no to that? The DfT of course.
Pre May 18, TPE bar overcrowding had little issues. But again, the May 18 recast was driven by the Franchise agreements drawn up by the DfT...
What you're seeing now is the managed decline of the railway but with an ideological right wing government that pretend they're into 'levelling up' when in reality its the politics of convenience for votes.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this, it sounds pretty grim.
The current structural setup for the railways just seems so bad, I hardly know how it could be fixed.
Though hopefully GBR will bring improvements.
Facing Back
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Forgive me, but from a passenger perspective - and I am a passenger not a rail worker - they are the same issues. You are discussing the causes of this issue.
My experience is that pre-may 18 there were a noticeable number of cancellations, short formed trains and massive overcrowding and we have much the same now. The reasons may be different now, I don't know, and that wasn't my point either.
I'm not commenting on who is responsible - I don't know. I do know the passenger experience for a railway which is important to me is unacceptably poor. I'm also not getting to get drawn into the politics however I am disappointed in the dilution of northern powerhouse rail - all of you experts feel free to laugh.
mike57
Established Member
This is also the view that I get as regular user of Transpennine services. With a few rare exceptions I have found the front line staff to be doing their best within what they are allowed to do, and from limited conversations not being supported by senior managers.
Its not a pretty picture, and to be honest if a business outside the protected enviroment of taxpayer subsidised rail operations were to carry on in this way it would not be in business very long.
TPE unreliability has reached a point where I will actively avoid using their services, accepting a longer journey time via Hull from home when I can for example on a London journey, I would rather know when I am going to arrive (barring the occasional unforseen issue), having had a reasonably pleasent journey, than arrive frazzled and late after being jammed in an overcrowded train.
I am of the same opinion, I want a reliable and pleasent to use rail service. I have been travelling between home and the NW regularly on a roughly once a week basis since around 1982, sometimes a bit more often, sometimes a bit less, so I have witnessed the full range of 'Transpennine' service from the local hauled service at the start of that period through to the current shambles that is TPE. The current problems set in around 2015 when it was decided to go for more trains rather than longer ones. Up to that point the previous 10 years ish had been pretty static, albeit with overcrowding getting worse, particularly at peak times. At a guess in this period less than 1 in 10 journeys were disrupted sufficently to cause a problem, there was no delay repay, so I have no hard figures, but applying the 'I arrived within 15 mins of timetabled time' rule that is my perception. From 2018 onwards it has just been crisis after crisis, with the timetable change in May 2018 being the biggest disaster.
I realise that DfT have a lot to answer for, but ultimately I dont care who is to blame I just want a rail service I can rely on.
What I find concerning is that a lot of the problems over the last 4 years or so were forseen by others and the people in charge (DfT or TPE) either knew and didn't care, which is unacceptable, or are so incompetant that they couldn't see the obvious, which is also unacceptable.
As a passenger, I keep being told that the problems are being addressed, and the new timetable/new rolling stock/route improvements/whatever will solve the problems, only to find out 6 months down the road that the reliability is just as bad or worse. I am certain that with the right management, and reasonably free hand a properly resourced and robust timetable could be planned and delivered using current infrastructure and rolling stock if the issues raised by @gimmea50anyday and others were addressed. It wouldn't be perfect, ultimately it is basically a 2 track railway between Leeds and Manchester, and compromises will have to be made, but I suspect if the senior managers used the experience and expertise of those on the ground the worst of the current problems could be addressed.
I must admit, even as an irregular user of TPE I have found myself using Northern services when crossing the Pennines to see my family in Cheshire (heading to Warrington) rather than them these days. It was disappointing to lose the direct TPE from Leeds to Warrington Central, but it did give me the chance to wander across Manchester & visit one of my favourite pubs underneath Oxford Road*, so I didn't mind too much. But the spiralling prices / withdrawal of Advance fares during the restrictions (have they returned yet, I must admit I haven't checked for a bit), & worsening reliability has seen me using Northern's Chester service which has the added bonus of being a lot cheaper & I can connect through Bradford meaning one less change.
(*I know that I could go to Piccadilly from Leeds to connect onwards for Warrington services, but I just wanted to give myself the excuse to nip into The Salisbury for a pint or two and some rock!)
class397tpe
Member
Wasn't it 5tph + the stopping service pre-covid? Or at least meant to be (not sure if it got implemented)?
Liverpool - Edinburgh
Liverpool - Scarborough
Manchester Airport - Newcastle
Manchester Airport - Redcar Central
Manchester Piccadilly - Hull
And the stopping services.
Also quick question - if they actually used the 68+MK5s (e.g. used a good 11 out of 14), would they have enough stock to run this timetable?
blackfive460
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Likewise those of us who have no alternative but to use TPE.
Public transport in the north often isn't good but it's fast becoming a last resort 'distress purchase' which can only lead to an eventual downward spiral; fewer passengers, fewer services so even fewer passengers and so on...
@gimmea50anyday Thanks for an informative post but it's sad to read.
RailWonderer
Established Member
In the last few months I have only used TPE south and the Manchester Cleethorpes runs every 2 hours and regularly terminates at Sheffield in both directions. It sometimes runs as 3 cars (see here https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P13250/2022-06-10#allox_id=1) and sometimes runs as a little Sheffield Meadowhall shuttle (see here https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:46953/2022-06-10) when in fact they have enough units to run everything as 6 cars especially with service reductions on the core TPE Manchester - York.
It doesn't matter if you're a rail worker or a passenger. The causation of overcrowding, which you brought up, is fundamentally down to government. You may not want to get into politics - but the reason why the situation is what it is (then and now), is solely down to politics.
I used to commute daily with TPE before I started in rail 2016/17. There wasn't the amount of cancellations or short-forms as you describe - delays were an issue but you get that with two track railways. And the overcrowding was solely down to the fact that the trains weren't long enough - which brings up back to politics.
Railways in the North of England have been grossly underfunded for decades, yet are getting back to being as popular as ever. It's down to the DfT to allow TOC's to speak with the Unions - so far they've not allowed it as alluded to by Nigel Harris on Twitter.
Because at that point in time, despite TPE asking for longer rolling stock, it was the only work around. Until the new franchise agreement was signed in 2016, which had new rolling stock written into the submissions, there was little else to be done. Longer trains also aren't always the easiest solution, given the infrastructure.
The whole idea that its managements fault is wrong. The timetable was supposed to be 4tph between Manchester - Leeds but due to Omicron and the government asking for cuts to services, it reverted back to 3tph. Then came ASLEF pulling RDW due to spare at home, which the DfT would never agree to. Add in RMT action, which again requires DfT to sanction TPE to make offers towards the RMT and we are now where we are.
The current problems can only be addressed if the DfT allows TPE to negotiate with RMT. But in reality, the don't care. Strike days and no RDW save the DfT money.
Not officially in dispute yet but a ballot has gone out to TPE drivers. Only a matter of time.
Whistler40145
Established Member
Transpennine Express quickly needs to sort itself out, the driver shortage outlives the Covid virus.
Managed decline?
When TPE began you had 4 trains an hour between Manchester and Leeds variously 2-3 car 158s.
In 2018 they got almost an entirely new fleet of trains including 125mph Class 802s.
The only people managing decline are the unions who campaigned for nationalisation it seems overlooking the reality of wage constraint and now seem bent reliving the 1980s and leading their members and the railways in general over a cliff.
General Strike?
Flexible rostering?
DOO?
Role of the Guard?
On Board Supervisors?
You'd think the penny would have dropped by now.
childwallblues
Established Member
Instead of Liverpool crews working the trains to Newcastle services the full distance they now mostly only work to Leeds. They now have some work on Leeds to Huddersfield stoppers. They also work on Manchester Piccadilly to Huddersfield stoppers which involves the crews travelling "on the cushions" between Liverpool and Manchester.
irish_rail
On Moderation
Sadly this is the way the railway is moving now. Limiting traincrew route knowledge whilst increasing the amount of time spent on the cushions as a result. Same thing happening on GWR. They prefer to use 3 drivers to cover a service like Swansea or Plymouth to London when previously just one would do. Much like TPE. Indeed Plymouth drivers are to be forced to sign off our diversionary route knowledge via Bristol and Swindon to Reading in December.
So this is very much a problem across the board and not just TPE and hopefully some on here with a bit of influence are reading this as its dreadfully wasteful and completely unfair on the poor passengers who are suffering as a result.
Facing Back
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What might be the reasons a company would do this? You consider it wasteful and OK but I assume they see benefit?
There’s a method to the madness and It’s for route retention, station knowledge, traction experience and crew training.
The Huddersfield route is used a lot for competency exams as it uses three different dispatch types, allows staff to use the GOP, and has a few rules and hazards that the conductor should be aware of.
Manchester stopping services used to largely (but not exclusively) use crew from Piccadilly depot, but now work is shared between Piccadilly, Sheffield, Airport, Liverpool and the occasional York. Newcastle now do a few Leeds stopping services for this reason also after not having work allocated beyond Leeds for much of Covid.
Yes managed decline.
90% of rail users back with a reduced timetable.
DfT not allowing TOCs to engage with unions
Services missing altogether between major towns and cities in the North.
But look at these new trains, which despite the reduced timetables, are still being leased at full cost...
Penny dropped for you yet?
Facing Back
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Sorry I’m really not seeing why this is managed decline
Great that people are coming back - revenues still lag behind as fewer passengers are buying peak tickets
ToC negotiations have led to a price war between them for staff, we have GBR in the wings and we need to take cost out so I’m not buying that
Yeah services - agreed.
Trains are lovely. Why on earth should reducing the timetables reduce the cost? They don’t magically become cheaper to buy. If there was an increased resale value based on lower than expected mileage then ok but is that really the case?
The service is poor, we agree on that, but you seem to be suggesting that is deliberate?
irish_rail
On Moderation
Quite simply its TOCs looking at a very very short term point of view.
If we employ a driver we can have him fully productive within 3 months if he only learns one route, whereas if he has lots of routes to learn he won't be productive for 6 months.
This of course totally ignores the reality of the railway and the knock on costs caused by delays that not being able to resource crew for train services as well as inability to divert train services.
I would argue this is totally not in the interests of the fare paying passengers and the only beneficiary is the box ticking that the TOC can present to the Dft.
Facing Back
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Thank you
VauxhallNova
Member
When was the Managing Director removed from post, wasn't that just before Covid?
Can't think of another recent example where a TOC MD has been sacked.
All the issues mentioned like industrial relations, 2 track railways and traincrew training also apply to almost every other TOC on the network.
For several years the "TPE problem" has been blamed on the Castlefield Corridor, which now has the same number of trains on it as pre- May 2018.
Can't think of another recent example where a TOC MD has been sacked.
All the issues mentioned like industrial relations, 2 track railways and traincrew training also apply to almost every other TOC on the network.
For several years the "TPE problem" has been blamed on the Castlefield Corridor, which now has the same number of trains on it as pre- May 2018.
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The unions demanded the railways be nationalised and then decide they want to negotiate with the privateers instead!
I can remember managed decline and it is unrecognisable to what is happening on TPE or pretty much anywhere else.
Presumably in some cases there is a tendency to manoeuvre round the use of words such as "sacked" preferring such expressions as "will be leaving the company in order to pursue other interests". Removing the previous MD was clearly not the panacea for all their woes then?
John Luxton
Established Member
I have just completed a one week North West Rover and TPE has been dreadful. I only used their services for the first time last year when I got back into train travel after many years absence. I had several days out using the Club 55 promotion and though the whole operation was very well run and the trains pleasant to ride on.
Unfortunately my positive impressions have been dashed.
Yesterday I set out to take a trip to the Keighley and Worth Valley for the diesel gala.
I had been aiming to catch the 06:54 Liverpool to Leeds. However, thanks to an early running bus I would have been just in time to catch the 05:52.
The 05:52 was cancelled. The 06:54 was terminating at Manchester Victoria 07:30.
I decided to catch the 07:36 Northern stopper to Leeds.
However, once on board the guard apologized for the disruption and told passengers to disembark on Platform 4 as she would be doing and there would be another TPE service 10 minutes behind.
She then came around the train to check where people were going to and offer advice. - Top marks for customer service.
Train arrived at Manchester, everyone got off. There was the 07:36 stopper on platform 6.
But the next train from Platform 4 indicator was not showing any TPE service. Another passenger asked the platform despatcher and he said he knew of nothing from TPE due until 08:45.
The Northern train to Leeds then departed.
Several of us waiting went to speak to the guard who had been speaking to the driver of the train. She then looked at her phone and told us that the train she had told us to board had now been cancelled.
The printed timetable didn't show a train, neither did RTT thus I don't know where she had got this information from unless from an internal company web site. Fortunately there was another Leeds stopper due away at 07:56 and several of us boarded that rather than wait to see what happened.
Thus I ended up at Keighley rather later than planned.
Deciding I didn't want want to chance TPE again and with news circulated elsewhere that many fans would be heading to Manchester for an Ed Sheeran concert I decided to travel back via Lancaster.
I arrived at Lancaster to find the TPE Glasgow to Manchester Airport service cancelled fortunately an Avanti service was due to call a few minutes later and I was able to get to Wigan NW and make my connection back home.
There have been many cancelled or short runs of TPE trains this week with units parked up all over the place.
One wonders with Delay Repay the company is making any money as I am sure many passengers with conventional non rover tickets will be claiming back their fares.
John
Unfortunately my positive impressions have been dashed.
Yesterday I set out to take a trip to the Keighley and Worth Valley for the diesel gala.
I had been aiming to catch the 06:54 Liverpool to Leeds. However, thanks to an early running bus I would have been just in time to catch the 05:52.
The 05:52 was cancelled. The 06:54 was terminating at Manchester Victoria 07:30.
I decided to catch the 07:36 Northern stopper to Leeds.
However, once on board the guard apologized for the disruption and told passengers to disembark on Platform 4 as she would be doing and there would be another TPE service 10 minutes behind.
She then came around the train to check where people were going to and offer advice. - Top marks for customer service.
Train arrived at Manchester, everyone got off. There was the 07:36 stopper on platform 6.
But the next train from Platform 4 indicator was not showing any TPE service. Another passenger asked the platform despatcher and he said he knew of nothing from TPE due until 08:45.
The Northern train to Leeds then departed.
Several of us waiting went to speak to the guard who had been speaking to the driver of the train. She then looked at her phone and told us that the train she had told us to board had now been cancelled.
The printed timetable didn't show a train, neither did RTT thus I don't know where she had got this information from unless from an internal company web site. Fortunately there was another Leeds stopper due away at 07:56 and several of us boarded that rather than wait to see what happened.
Thus I ended up at Keighley rather later than planned.
Deciding I didn't want want to chance TPE again and with news circulated elsewhere that many fans would be heading to Manchester for an Ed Sheeran concert I decided to travel back via Lancaster.
I arrived at Lancaster to find the TPE Glasgow to Manchester Airport service cancelled fortunately an Avanti service was due to call a few minutes later and I was able to get to Wigan NW and make my connection back home.
There have been many cancelled or short runs of TPE trains this week with units parked up all over the place.
One wonders with Delay Repay the company is making any money as I am sure many passengers with conventional non rover tickets will be claiming back their fares.
John
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