Isn't one analogy the withdrawal of the HAPs off the South Western division in the early 1990s without replacement, which you have described in the past? Eventually by the end of the decade the ridership came back and SWT had to bolster their fleet with CEPs off the South Eastern side.
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Southern May 2022 timetable change
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Islineclear3_1
Established Member
How would you define "efficient" in this context? And "efficient" for whom?
I wouldn't call service cuts and shorter formations "efficient" - at least to the travelling public who have to endure higher fares and sardine cans
Yes that's a good point actually. Don't think it was quite as severe as the loss of the 455s and 313s (as there were perhaps only 15 or so HAP units left on the SWD by this time) so it led to shortening formations rather than cuts. The cuts (mostly to peak services, to be fair - the off-peak offering remained quite acceptable) occurred in May 1991 with the HAPs still around (they went in Sep 1991), presumably as a reaction to the recession. That said, there were savage if temporary off-peak cuts to the Portsmouth Direct in May 1993 with just 2tph, even north of Haslemere.
Improvements happened then quite early on in SWT days, the 1997 timetable was a pretty high-frequency one, and that was before any CEPs arrived. By 1999 they had: this partly enabled the high-frequency timetable to come in, presumably, but also ISTR more 8-car off-peaks were diagrammed compared to most of the 90s when it was largely a 4-car off-peak railway (or 5-car on 442 routes).
Class 466
Established Member
Some of the Septepber changes are slowly starting to show downsteam now... An example: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L41853/2022-09-16/detailed
The 1Ixx are all going to be withdrawn with the 2Ixx pushed through to Horsham/Dorking
The 1Ixx are all going to be withdrawn with the 2Ixx pushed through to Horsham/Dorking
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
The 1Ixx are still around in the peaks runnig from London Victoria - Epsom.
I don't know if this has appeared yet but the 2Fxx London Bridge - London Victoria are returning all day.
Rather surprised this didn't happen earlier given the formations generally stayed at 10 car.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
They were so slackly timed doesn't make much difference to journey times and always thought 10cars were a bit of an overprovision anyhow.
Likewise the 1991 recession finished off the Central 4EPBs in 1992 and the 2EPBs in 1993. The 456s helped with the latter of course. By the late 1990s they gained a few CEPs which were later swapped with SWT VEPs.
SouthEastBuses
On Moderation
What does VSTP mean?
Very short term plan - when a train is scheduled at short notice that does not exist in the working timetable.
SouthEastBuses
On Moderation
Ooh right thank you.
Btw, about the extra 377s replacing the 313s, are they by any chance the 377/5s currently at Southeastern (which will be replaced by 717s before moving to Southern)?
That is what has been suggested - SWR's remaining 707s go to Southeastern which then displace Networkers to displace 12 377/5 which displace 313s.
Southern have a pretty raw deal. They’re replacing their old stock at alarming rates and only receiving a couple more electrostars as a return. They possibly have the oldest newest rolling stock (377/7 made in 2014, but might not count as it is only a subclass of the units made in 2002) and their overcrowding problem is a hole that they keep digging further down
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Nought wrong with the 377's especial 2+2 seated carriages. Good aircon and have always found them to be pretty reliable. Only downside is when you bang two together it takes an age for the two units to fall in love again and allow door release.
The problem is shortage of stock. The 5 carriage trains are causing chaos at London Bridge and causing knock on effects on the rest of the network. Not every carriage has 2+2 seating. Fun challenge, try walking through a 3+2 carriage without banging your body on the chairs. Then try it on a full and standing peak train. The units that are going are far outweighing the units replacing them so they are digging a deep hole of reduced and “revised” services.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Every carriage does in the five carriage trains that you mention (and the three carriage ones)
3+2 in four carriage 377s only.
Is it more a case of needing to allocate the stock a bit better to match loadings to the available rolling stock? It seems a bit unfortunate that 8-car trains were replaced by 5-car ones but there are still 10-car and 12-car formations operating.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
even worse on a 720
Plenty of people predicted this would happen. It's insane that they have paid for the 455s for two years when they weren't needed and have binned them off just when they are needed again. I can't speak for Victoria or London Bridge but other London termini are getting very busy again, especially on shorter distance routes. As Jonathan says, maybe take a few units off long distance 12 cars to lengthen some metro trains. Though perhaps that is just robbing Peter to pay Paul.
43074
Established Member
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No because there aren't enough units to do that on all the services where it is needed.
Galvanize
Member
2Foxtrots or “Palace rounders” from London Bridge-London Victoria via Crystal Palace seemingly returning all day, all week including Sundays, when there previously never used to be such a service.
But sadly it appears the London Bridge-East Croydon (and to Coulsdon Town on Saturdays) stoppers via Sydenham are going for the chop. Shame as they are a useful link to East Croydon with its connections to Gatwick and destinations on the South Coast for local communities in South London.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
I have to say that Redhill Station car parks today are fullest I've seem them pre covid approaching 85% plus full. OK we have been fortunate enough to retain reasonable service from RDH but if its a good indicator of the state of commuting other routes are going to become overloaded. I hope DfT aren't looking at season ticket sales as a proxy for ridership in the peaks and thus capacity.
Benjaminmorgan
On Moderation
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Nothing is severing anerley and Penge West
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
Yeah will be London Overground only from September.
Benjaminmorgan
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Cheers
There are some Watford Junction services being extended to East Croydon as well as 2 to Hemel Hempstead
0616- Selhurst to Hemel Hempstead
0731- Hemel Hempstead to East Croydon
Also there are finally 2tph off-peak to Beckenham Junction
0616- Selhurst to Hemel Hempstead
0731- Hemel Hempstead to East Croydon
Also there are finally 2tph off-peak to Beckenham Junction
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
Uckfield goes back to being hourly. Brighton to Hove returns.
Bedford - Gatwick Airport calls additionally at South Croydon.
London Bridge - Caterham/Tattenham Corner call additionally at Norwood Junction.
And London Bridge - Caterham via Tulse Hill are cut back to terminate at East Croydon.
Bedford - Gatwick Airport calls additionally at South Croydon.
London Bridge - Caterham/Tattenham Corner call additionally at Norwood Junction.
And London Bridge - Caterham via Tulse Hill are cut back to terminate at East Croydon.
However these services are formed from these additional peak services:
0701- London Bridge to East Croydon
1801- London Bridge to East Croydon
2101- London Bridge to East Croydon
OliverH68
Member
Already the case from May 22 but only a select handful in the morning peak and 1 in the evening - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=TL
Can't say I'm a fan of the 1Ps calling additionally at Norwood but gives an extra fast train opportunity so in a way I hope it works well!
Absolutely ridiculous the 2Js are being cut back to East Croydon though. The extra 2 trains an hour from Purley towards Croydon/London are very useful and allows to spread out the service to Purley. Otherwise from Croydon it's about 10 minutes for 3 trains to Purley in 1 go else you'll end up waiting 20 minutes for the Reigate if you miss the TL Gatwick.
It is a congested corridor though and hopefully trimming back the service a little will improve reliability. The Caterham / Tattenham Corner trains are appear to be retimed from Purley to the path previously used by the Caterham 2J train.
It is somewhat a shame though that the timing of the East Grinstead to Victoria trains through East Croydon prevents the Horsham to Peterborough train from staying on the slow side as that would remove the last crossing moves at Stoats Nest Junction and further improve reliability of the overall timetable.
All of this does appear to be proving that the Croydon works will never be needed.
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