London Buses Discussion

[150249]

I'm not sure of any details but LT174 was destroyed by fire on Tuesday and I can't see it posted anywhere

 

[gka472l]

I'm not sure of any details but LT174 was destroyed by fire on Tuesday and I can't see it posted anywhere

Can't help with this but LVF has it out of service since 10/06/20, just short of 2 years.....

 

[Blindtraveler]

Makes you wonder if it was taken out of service due to a potentially imminent thermal incident and when they fired it up again for whatever reason said thermal incident finally happened. Just as long as nobody hurt

 

[150249]

Makes you wonder if it was taken out of service due to a potentially imminent thermal incident and when they fired it up again for whatever reason said thermal incident finally happened. Just as long as nobody hurt

There are pictures on Flickr which show it's rear still viable which makes me think that it was a component at the front that caught fire

 

[Snow1964]

I'm not sure of any details but LT174 was destroyed by fire on Tuesday and I can't see it posted anywhere

LT174 has one of the more interesting histories

LT174-208 we’re originally to be for Stagecoach route 8
but LT174-175 joined RATP alongside LT148-173 for route 10
After route 10 discontinued it ended up with Abellio

Had a number of different all over wraps at times, including poppy appeal

It is also one of the few LTs to go abroad, having appeared at the Transport Publics show in Paris in June 2014

 

[150249]

LT174 has one of the more interesting histories

LT174-208 we’re originally to be for Stagecoach route 8
but LT174-175 joined RATP alongside LT148-173 for route 10
After route 10 discontinued it ended up with Abellio

Had a number of different all over wraps at times, including poppy appeal

It is also one of the few LTs to go abroad, having appeared at the Transport Publics show in Paris in June 2014

So not the ideal end then.

 

[317 forever]

Which will further reduce local competition in tendering. If such a thing exists now, other than minor swaps between operators!

There has been a greater variety of operators in east and north London than south or west London for a while. In east London we will still have Stagecoach, Arriva, Go-Ahead and HCT, plus Metroline for isolated routes.

This also means we are back down to 9 TfL bus contractors. The 5 owners of former LBL operations Go-Ahead, Arriva, Metroline, RATP/TT and Stagecoach. Then "independents" Abellio, HCT, Sullivan and Uno.

If Rotala have Diamond Bus North West taken over by TfGM due to bus franchising, I think they could use some of the proceeds by acquiring Sullivan and combining it with Diamond Bus South East.

 

[dmncf]

West Ham and Lea Interchange bus garages were both as a result of original sites at Stratford and Waterden Road respectively being required for the Olympics.

I think the Olympic Delivery Authority bought the sites, got Pringle Richards Sharratt (architects) to design new garages then passed West Ham to TfL to lease out to Stagecoach. Lea Interchange was leased to First bus, until First sold it out to Transit Systems of Australia (now Kelsian).

I know Lea Interchange is leased (it is in Tower Transits accounts), but I think site might be owned by London & Continental Railways (it was part of the old Temple Mills rail yards).

As far as I’m aware the large former bus parking area just to the north of West Ham bus garage building is being redeveloped as part of the 3838 home development called Twelve Trees Park

National planning award for 3,800-home West Ham development

A 3,838-home development in West Ham which transformed disused industrial land has been recognised with a national planning award.

www.newhamrecorder.co.uk

Yes, the Olympic Delivery Authority commissioned a team including Pringle Richards Sharratt Architects to relocate the two Stagecoach garages to West Ham and relocate the First Group garage to Wyke Road, which would be new build, somewhat gold-plated bus garages:

Wayback Machine

But the Wyke Road plan ran into opposition, I think because the area was intended for residential development and I think the planning application was withdrawn. The First Group garage moved to a converted road haulage depot at Lea Interchange instead.

 

[Snow1964]

A huge consultation on cutting a number of London bus routes has been published

Due to its size, not going to attempt to quote large sections of it, especially as it includes dozens of further maps on pdfs

Seems to be cutting following routes
Go Ahead 11/12/14/74/521/D7
Arriva 78/242/349
Metroline 4/16/31
RATP 72/C3
Abellio 24/45

Central London Bus Review​

Proposed changes to bus routes into central London
TfL’s reliance on customer fares for the majority of its income means the effect of the pandemic on our finances has been devastating, requiring Government support to keep public transport in London operating. Customer numbers have begun to recover, but are still significantly below pre-pandemic levels.
The Government set a number of conditions before it would provide emergency funding to enable TfL to keep operating, including requiring us to produce a plan to set out how we would achieve significant financial savings. This plan included reducing the extent of our bus network.
Buses are the backbone of our transport network and are critically important to reducing car use, congestion, road danger and pollution. We have always adjusted our bus network to reflect our changing city, but the devastating impact of the pandemic on our finances has required a more significant review.
Our plan to achieve the savings required by the Government includes a 4% reduction in bus kilometres. Demand has reduced over the years on some roads leading into central and inner London due to changing travel patterns, which have been accelerated by the pandemic. In response to this and the savings we have been required to make, we are consulting on changes to some bus routes in and around central London.
We are consulting on withdrawing some individual bus routes or sections of routes where they are covered by other high-frequency services or are close to alternative stops. These proposals aim to ensure we still have a strong bus service to support London’s economic recovery, while simplifying the network to ensure buses are operating frequently and reliably in the areas that need them most. The changes being consulted on are intended to cause as little disruption to passengers as possible, while making the required savings. The Hopper Fare will continue to allow customers to change between buses within 60 minutes of starting journeys without having to pay more.
Route details
All the proposed changes have been arranged into ‘neighbourhoods’ of north, east, south and west London to provide a picture of how the bus network in that area would change. These ‘neighbourhoods’ are shown below.

Central London Bus Review

Update 6 March 2023 Today we have published our Response to issues raised document. This sets out our response to the key issues raised during the Central London Bus Review (CLBR) consultation held in summer 2022. We once again thank everyone that took part in this

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

 

[bakerstreet]

A huge consultation on cutting a number of London bus routes has been published

Due to its size, not going to attempt to quote large sections of it, especially as it includes dozens of further maps on pdfs

Seems to be cutting following routes
Go Ahead 11/12/14/74/521/D7
Arriva 78/242/349
Metroline 4/16/31
RATP 72/C3
Abellio 24/45

Central London Bus Review

Update 6 March 2023 Today we have published our Response to issues raised document. This sets out our response to the key issues raised during the Central London Bus Review (CLBR) consultation held in summer 2022. We once again thank everyone that took part in this

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

I of course understand the need for this in financial terms but I’m concerned about the data used re passenger numbers in the making of these decisions.
The 113 for example is still running at c.8-9 mins in the peaks and when I caught it last a couple of weeks ago was leaving passengers behind at 7pm northbound and was full by Swiss Cottage.
There really now needs to be a hopper fare for a single tube plus bus and vice versa, capped at the price of the tube journey (or similar)

 

[Mikey C]

I of course understand the need for this in financial terms but I’m concerned about the data used re passenger numbers in the making of these decisions.
The 113 for example is still running at c.8-9 mins in the peaks and when I caught it last a couple of weeks ago was leaving passengers behind at 7pm northbound and was full by Swiss Cottage.
There really now needs to be a hopper fare for a single tube plus bus and vice versa, capped at the price of the tube journey (or similar)

Yes, it's all very well taking about reducing the number of buses in Zone 1, but few routes stay exclusively within it, and many have localised busy sections further out, e.g. the 13 and 113 north of Finchley Road.

Indeed I've often thought they ought to run extra buses on the 13 and 113 starting from Finchley Road station.

 

[bakerstreet]

Indeed I've often thought they ought to run extra buses on the 13 and 113 starting from Finchley Road station.

Yes I have had exactly the same thought!

 

[Statto]

Yes, it's all very well taking about reducing the number of buses in Zone 1, but few routes stay exclusively within it, and many have localised busy sections further out, e.g. the 13 and 113 north of Finchley Road.

Indeed I've often thought they ought to run extra buses on the 13 and 113 starting from Finchley Road station.

Agreed, not everyone wants to catch the Tube or Train in zone 1, cost being one of the reasons. Plus, the Tube can be really unpleasant due to the humidity, & overcrowded. I often prefer the bus because of this when I'm in London.

 

[johncrossley]

But if you've got to choose between cuts in central/inner London or in outer London, you have to choose central/inner London, because there is less of a likelihood of people switching to cars.

 

[Mikey C]

There's 2 opposing patterns I've seen on the 13/113 buses going out of London (and vice versa)

1) People using the tube in Central London, and switching to the bus at Finchley Road to go out of London. Presumably this is because the tube is quicker in central London, than taking the bus all the way from Oxford Street or Victoria
2) People using the bus in Central London, and switching to the tube at St John's Wood to go out of London. Presumably this is because that way they avoid expensive Zone 1 fares and season tickets, I've noticed a number of East Europeans for example doing this.

Thus the 13 and 113 buses have quite a high churn between Swiss Cottage and Finchley Road stations, even though it's only 1 stop on the tube!

 

[johncrossley]

2) People using the bus in Central London, and switching to the tube at St John's Wood to go out of London. Presumably this is because that way they avoid expensive Zone 1 fares and season tickets, I've noticed a number of East Europeans for example doing this.

If we are running more buses than necessary just because people are trying to save money then that's a waste of resources. This doesn't happen in cities outside the UK because buses and metros normally have integrated fares. Paris was a major exception but even they've now introduced an integrated bus/metro ticket.

 

[Busaholic]

A huge consultation on cutting a number of London bus routes has been published

Due to its size, not going to attempt to quote large sections of it, especially as it includes dozens of further maps on pdfs

Seems to be cutting following routes
Go Ahead 11/12/14/74/521/D7
Arriva 78/242/349
Metroline 4/16/31
RATP 72/C3
Abellio 24/45

Central London Bus Review

Update 6 March 2023 Today we have published our Response to issues raised document. This sets out our response to the key issues raised during the Central London Bus Review (CLBR) consultation held in summer 2022. We once again thank everyone that took part in this

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

I've spent a couple of hours reading and inwardly digesting every one of these proposals, returning to two or three of them because I was so astounded by the 'justifications' given. If these changes are introduced in full but only cut 4% from bus mileage, then they would appear to me to be way over the top in order to achieve this. I would expect at least double that percentage in passenger numbers to abandon buses on a regular basis because of the illogicallity of so many of these plans, which appear to have been produced by people who know nothing of bus travel patterns and can never use them themselves other than in an emergency. Speaking of patterns, one that emerges strongly is the almost sadistic culling of ancient, even 'iconic', routes like the 11,16 and 24, let alone the 12, 14 and 31. Somebody at the heart of this is either a bus hater, or is playing a very dangerous game if the intention is to foment such public outrage that the whole package gets ditched, which is the best place for it. It's hard to choose the most egregious 'proposal', but the axeing of the 521 and its wholly inadequate 'replacement' in part probably takes the biscuit. Heads should roll. There are many inaccuracies, contradictions, misspellings and grammatical errors too, the whole exercise should be awarded an F minus minus.

 

[Mikey C]

Interesting with all the talk about the 13 and 113 above, that one of the changes is to divert the 113 at Swiss Cottage to replace the 31 route to White City (with the 189 diverted to replace the 31 to Camden Town)

Not long along ago 3 bus routes went between Swiss Cottage and Baker Street, the 13, 82 and 113, and after these proposals there will only be 1. Having already removed 1 route south of Swiss Cottage with the 13/82 changes, I'm amazed that TfL STILL think there's bus over capacity on this corridor.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If we are running more buses than necessary just because people are trying to save money then that's a waste of resources. This doesn't happen in cities outside the UK because buses and metros normally have integrated fares. Paris was a major exception but even they've now introduced an integrated bus/metro ticket.

However, this is London. The hallowed place where they do things differently than elsewhere in the UK. The place that other metropolitan locations look to... promises of regulation that will deliver "London style" this and that.

The fact is that London managed to record increases in bus use through high levels of public subsidy and that money simply isn't being provided to the same level. Cities in Europe have integrated fares and the like because of the money.... The money has to be there and then you have to spend it wisely, and I'm not convinced that it's doing that either.

I've spent a couple of hours reading and inwardly digesting every one of these proposals, returning to two or three of them because I was so astounded by the 'justifications' given. If these changes are introduced in full but only cut 4% from bus mileage, then they would appear to me to be way over the top in order to achieve this. I would expect at least double that percentage in passenger numbers to abandon buses on a regular basis because of the illogicallity of so many of these plans, which appear to have been produced by people who know nothing of bus travel patterns and can never use them themselves other than in an emergency. Speaking of patterns, one that emerges strongly is the almost sadistic culling of ancient, even 'iconic', routes like the 11,16 and 24, let alone the 12, 14 and 31. Somebody at the heart of this is either a bus hater, or is playing a very dangerous game if the intention is to foment such public outrage that the whole package gets ditched, which is the best place for it. It's hard to choose the most egregious 'proposal', but the axeing of the 521 and its wholly inadequate 'replacement' in part probably takes the biscuit. Heads should roll. There are many inaccuracies, contradictions, misspellings and grammatical errors too, the whole exercise should be awarded an F minus minus.

The fact is that the bus hopper fare at £1.65 is simply not sustainable without large amounts of public subsidy. That subsidy isn't there and the weight of that election bribe is beginning to drag the system down.

Then factor in the way in which London organises its bus services. They are so grossly inefficient that short workings are banned, timings are unbelievably slack. Resources could be better employed and utilised but instead, simply cutting services (and so depriving you of revenue generating capacity) is going to fuel a downward spiral whilst dead duck or vanity services in the 'burbs are provided.

As for iconic routes.... we will have to disagree. 99.9% of passengers have zero regard for their history or anything. It's something that is important for a few London-centric enthusiasts. I don't give a fig if the 11 disappears per se....I'm more bothered about the general approach to London about its transport policy.

 

[miklcct]

As for iconic routes.... we will have to disagree. 99.9% of passengers have zero regard for their history or anything.

It's important for the elderly - I have heard that some people know only a certain trunk route (which is frequent) to get home despite there are dozens of alternatives because this route is the one they have taken for their whole life.

 

[Simon75]

Should the bus fare be more realistic (ie to outside London) of say £2 per journey?

 

[Joe Paxton]

A huge consultation on cutting a number of London bus routes has been published

Due to its size, not going to attempt to quote large sections of it, especially as it includes dozens of further maps on pdfs
[...]

Central London Bus Review

Update 6 March 2023 Today we have published our Response to issues raised document. This sets out our response to the key issues raised during the Central London Bus Review (CLBR) consultation held in summer 2022. We once again thank everyone that took part in this

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

A good post about this by Roger French on his 'Bus and Train User' blog:
Carnage on the buses (in central London)

He links to a good article by Callum Maruis, the Transport Editor of the news site MyLondon:
All the London bus routes TfL plans to axe and the impact it will have


I've lots of thoughts, but the one I come back to is the sheer absurdity of the current hand-to-mouth short term emergency funding deals coming from central government since the pandemic hit and destroyed TfL's finances (which aren't expected to stabilise until April 2023, according to this article).

 

[GusB]

It's important for the elderly - I have heard that some people know only a certain trunk route (which is frequent) to get home despite there are dozens of alternatives because this route is the one they have taken for their whole life.

Older people will find out what changes there are and will adapt, just like anyone else.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Older people will find out what changes there are and will adapt, just like anyone else.

Two points:

(1) Axing and changing long established routes, especially lots at the same time, carries the risk of confusing (potential) passengers, losing their trust and putting them off travelling by bus.

(2) TfL's bus publicity and information provision was for a period really quite good, but it's really fallen apart in recent years which is a great shame. Finding out what changes there are, especially when there are loads of changes all at once, is going to need a strong publicity campaign alongside reliable and comprehensive ongoing provision of information. There hasn't been much of that evidence lately.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's important for the elderly - I have heard that some people know only a certain trunk route (which is frequent) to get home despite there are dozens of alternatives because this route is the one they have taken for their whole life.

In which case, you'd never, ever change anything, and indeed, those people will have never changed their entire lives.... never moved, never changed jobs etc. Whilst wholesale, constant change is not a recipe for success, neither can things be preserved in aspic.

Two points:
(1) Axing and changing long established routes, especially lots at the same time, carries the risk of confusing (potential) passengers, losing their trust and putting them off travelling by bus.

(2) TfL's bus publicity and information provision was for a period really quite good, but it's really fallen apart in recent years which is a great shame. Finding out what changes there are, especially when there are loads of changes all at once, is going to need a strong publicity campaign alongside reliable and comprehensive ongoing provision of information. There hasn't been much of that evidence lately.

I agree with both points. However, point 2 is particularly important. Change is not necessarily a bad thing but ensuring that it is sufficiently well publicised is key. Something that TfL seems to have got progressively worse at.

 

[Andyh82]

As others have said, it’s as if they’ve decided every road only needs one or two services so cut and changed as many routes as possible to reach that aim. A massive number of changes that I’m not even sure operators in ‘not London style’ operations would do as lightly.

I also wonder who in reality is going to catch buses in central London between places that would now require a change of buses and up to a 12 minute wait if fairly straightforward tube links are available. Journey times are painfully slow in central London already without adding a 12 minute delay in the middle

 

[bakerstreet]

I also wonder what a 12 minute wait (post frequency cuts) - as oppose to a 6-7 min wait - might do to the numbers of journeys requiring a change of bus which will no longer covered by the 60 min Hopper fare. The hopper fare used to be (unadvertised) at 70 mins when buses were more plentiful and frequent and is now (unadvertised) at 62 mins.
I’m sure more will be paying double bus fare which in some cases will make a one way bus journey more expensive than the tube or train.

 

[Busaholic]

Interesting with all the talk about the 13 and 113 above, that one of the changes is to divert the 113 at Swiss Cottage to replace the 31 route to White City (with the 189 diverted to replace the 31 to Camden Town)

Not long along ago 3 bus routes went between Swiss Cottage and Baker Street, the 13, 82 and 113, and after these proposals there will only be 1. Having already removed 1 route south of Swiss Cottage with the 13/82 changes, I'm amazed that TfL STILL think there's bus over capacity on this corridor.

Just suppose there was a great demand to link Edgware with White City (it would only be in the fevered mind of a transport planner) - why the hell would you go via Swiss Cottage? Couldn't they 'save' a bit more money by going via Ealing and withdrawing the 207, as it would obviously no longer be required in this Brave New World? As for the 189 going to Camden Town to enable the residents of Adelaide Road, Chalk Farm etc to access Brent Cross, they already have the C11 and trains on the Northern Line every few minutes to nearby Hendon Central! Many of these proposals actually increase examples of buses paralleling tube lines, which is nonsensical. Another nonsense is the 388 extended to Peckham. Now, there might well be some from that area wanting to reach Hackney or Stratford by public transport, and years ago such a route might have made more sense, but now with Overground and the Jubilee Line S.E. Londoners have many much more convenient ways to make such journeys.

 

[philjo]

Interesting with all the talk about the 13 and 113 above, that one of the changes is to divert the 113 at Swiss Cottage to replace the 31 route to White City (with the 189 diverted to replace the 31 to Camden Town)

Not long along ago 3 bus routes went between Swiss Cottage and Baker Street, the 13, 82 and 113, and after these proposals there will only be 1. Having already removed 1 route south of Swiss Cottage with the 13/82 changes, I'm amazed that TfL STILL think there's bus over capacity on this corridor.

These buses also serve Lords cricket ground. At the close of play the buses are often full and then cannot pick up again until Baker Street. So it is helpful when several buses arrive in quick succession to clear the crowd at the bus stop. It is a 15 min walk to Baker Street so those of reduced mobility generally rely on getting the bus as it stops outside the ground.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2022 ==

When attending an evening T20 match at Lords after work I have used the bus from Golders Green station to Lords after work ( the office is on the Edgware branch of the northern line) which is quicker than using the tube to Baker Street/St Johns Wood then walking.

 

[Andyh82]

I’m sure the 388 changes it’s south/west terminus every time there are service changes. How many different terminals will it have had now?