London Buses Discussion

[GusB]

A major fire has broken out at Potters Bar garage today

Buses on fire after 'huge explosion' at London transport depot

One eyewitness heard an 'unbelievable noise that sounded like a jet'.

metro.co.uk

Already being discussed here:

Metroline Potters Bar depot fire

Metroline are suffering a fire at Potters Bar depot. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-61543634 Four buses have caught fire at a town centre transport depot. Heavy smoke drifted across Potters Bar after Hertfordshire crews were called to the scene on the High Street at...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

The annual TfL Bus fleet audit report has been published (data for 31st March 2022).

TfL Bus Fleet is now 8795 buses (down 273 buses on year ago), and 821 buses (or 8.5%) on 5 years ago when fleet was 9616 buses

Of the 8795 buses
2467 single deck, 6328 double deck
4134 are diesel, 3854 hybrid, 22 hydrogen, 785 electric

Average fleet age has increased to 7.12 years
But this masks huge variations between operators
eg Arriva fleet average age 8.06 years (5.93 years 5 years ago)
eg RATP fleet average age 5.95 years (6.82 years 5 years ago)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2022.pdf

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-audit-31-march-2017-final.pdf

Doesn’t seem to be any comments in the media about how TfL have cut their bus fleet by 8.5% over 5 years

 

[johncrossley]

The annual TfL Bus fleet audit report has been published (data for 31st March 2022).

TfL Bus Fleet is now 8795 buses (down 273 buses on year ago), and 821 buses (or 8.5%) on 5 years ago when fleet was 9616 buses

Of the 8795 buses
2467 single deck, 6328 double deck
4134 are diesel, 3854 hybrid, 22 hydrogen, 785 electric

Average fleet age has increased to 7.12 years
But this masks huge variations between operators
eg Arriva fleet average age 8.06 years (5.93 years 5 years ago)
eg RATP fleet average age 5.95 years (6.82 years 5 years ago)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2022.pdf

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-audit-31-march-2017-final.pdf

Doesn’t seem to be any comments in the media about how TfL have cut their bus fleet by 8.5% over 5 years

What was the fleet size in 2000? More or less than now?

 

[Mikey C]

The annual TfL Bus fleet audit report has been published (data for 31st March 2022).

TfL Bus Fleet is now 8795 buses (down 273 buses on year ago), and 821 buses (or 8.5%) on 5 years ago when fleet was 9616 buses

Of the 8795 buses
2467 single deck, 6328 double deck
4134 are diesel, 3854 hybrid, 22 hydrogen, 785 electric

Average fleet age has increased to 7.12 years
But this masks huge variations between operators
eg Arriva fleet average age 8.06 years (5.93 years 5 years ago)
eg RATP fleet average age 5.95 years (6.82 years 5 years ago)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2022.pdf

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-audit-31-march-2017-final.pdf

Doesn’t seem to be any comments in the media about how TfL have cut their bus fleet by 8.5% over 5 years

Interesting that due to the lack of hybrid single deckers, there are now more pure diesel single deckers than double deckers

The comparative age profile of single and double deckers will be interesting too, I'm guessing that the average age of single deck fleet in London will be higher

 

[Snow1964]

What was the fleet size in 2000? More or less than now?

Sorry don’t have that number now, threw out some old LOTs books before moving house.

Earliest I can find is 2006 with 7964 buses
then climbed about 150 per year until Olympics*
then only went up slightly for 3 years
and 2015 was similar to now at 8977 buses

* about 300 of that was replacing the bendy-bus fleet with lower capacity double decks, so needed more buses

I do recall that bus numbers increased by about 1000 when the congestion charge came in about 2003, so am guessing in 2000 would have been about 6500 buses.

The low point for London bus fleet was 40 years ago in 1982

 

[johncrossley]

Earliest I can find is 2006 with 7964 buses

Wow, so they still have more buses than during the height of the Livingstone years!

 

[Snow1964]

Interesting that due to the lack of hybrid single deckers, there are now more pure diesel single deckers than double deckers

The comparative age profile of single and double deckers will be interesting too, I'm guessing that the average age of single deck fleet in London will be higher

The single and double deck fleet age profile are in table 1

Single deck numbers are quite low in 2013 and 2014
From memory this was a hangover from the low floor conversion in mid to late 1990s, as many low floor single decks needed replacing 2008-2012.

The completion of the low floor conversion meant new bus numbers were very low from early 2006 until late 2008, most of these have now gone as they didn’t get euroVI upgrades.

There are over 1300 buses that are 12+ years old, so either fleet size needs to reduce, or expensive zero emission replacements need to be ordered soon (many seem to take 9-15 months to get into service, including because chargers take ages to install)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2022.pdf

 

[Mikey C]

The single and double deck fleet age profile are in table 1

Single deck numbers are quite low in 2013 and 2014
From memory this was a hangover from the low floor conversion in mid to late 1990s, as many low floor single decks needed replacing 2008-2012.

The completion of the low floor conversion meant new bus numbers were very low from early 2006 until late 2008, most of these have now gone as they didn’t get euroVI upgrades.

There are over 1300 buses that are 12+ years old, so either fleet size needs to reduce, or expensive zero emission replacements need to be ordered soon (many seem to take 9-15 months to get into service, including because chargers take ages to install)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2022.pdf

Table 2 doesn't give the average age though, and I can't be bothered to work it out!

I'm not sure it makes much difference from an emissions standpoint whether a diesel bus is 12 or 6 years old, when both are Euro VI. The issue is more that a 12 year bus will be showing its age and wearing out...

 

[Snow1964]

Manchester Bus Tours has made a London Service Permit (LSP) application to run sightseeing tours from Waterloo every 20 minutes from July using routemaster buses

Proposal
Manchester Bus Tours Ltd has applied to Transport for London to operate new route A as follows:

Route
Waterloo Station Taxi Road, York Road, Addington Street, Westminster Bridge Road, Bridge Street, Parliament Square, Great George Street, Parliament Street, Whitehall, Trafalgar Square, Cockspur Street, Pall Mall, Waterloo Place, Regent Street Saint James, Piccadilly, Half Moon Street, Curzon Street, Queen Street, Charles Street, Fitzmaurice Place, Curzon Street, Bolton Street, Piccadilly, Coventry Street, Haymarket, Cockspur Street, Trafalgar Square, Whitehall, Parliament Street, Bridge Street, Westminster Bridge Road, Station Approach Road, Waterloo Station Taxi Road

Vehicles
Double deck AEC Routemaster, maximum length 9.12 metres, width 2.55 metres.

Your Views
Please give us your views by completing the online consultation form by Friday 10 June 2022.

https://ehq-production-europe.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/f5bd97bb9bcb3f1aeb99847ab322df5ba005f260/original/1653386636/1b22907118a5021d869094eed0edaa18_Manchester_Bus_Tours_-_A_-_July_22.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIBJCUKKD4ZO4WUUA%2F20220525%2Feu-west-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220525T122450Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=1d9e1758f7abb37a315e6c2f0ff84e8fa2d7c52c6c849fb2c38e2ea8d9f77814

 

[Mikey C]

Manchester Bus Tours has made a London Service Permit (LSP) application to run sightseeing tours from Waterloo every 20 minutes from July using routemaster buses

The length suggests RMLs or RCLs. I assume they'd be open top versions, but they'd also need to be re-engined to Euro VI to meet emissions rules. Unless they can convert them to battery power

And would the accessibility exemption given to the 15H be given to a new private operator?

 

[galwhv69]

The length suggests RMLs or RCLs. I assume they'd be open top versions, but they'd also need to be re-engined to Euro VI to meet emissions rules. Unless they can convert them to battery power

And would the accessibility exemption given to the 15H be given to a new private operator?

RM's are exempt from emissions regulations as they were built before 1973

 

[James H]

A look at Companies House reveals that one of the directors of Manchester Bus Tours Ltd is well known to readers of this forum.

 

[markymark2000]

A look at Companies House reveals that one of the directors of Manchester Bus Tours Ltd is well known to readers of this forum.

For those who aren't aware, Manchester Bus Tours Ltd is ran by Phillp Higgs and Rhys Hand. The same people who run Sightseeing Manchester and Catch22/Coastliner buses in Blackpool.

 

[Busaholic]

No great length to the route: I assume a two-bus operation is planned. I suspect the 20 minute interval would become an actual 30 minute one quite regularly.

 

[galwhv69]

For those who aren't aware, Manchester Bus Tours Ltd is ran by Phillp Higgs and Rhys Hand. The same people who run Sightseeing Manchester and Catch22/Coastliner buses in Blackpool.

Believe this operation will be called "Londoner Buses" as that is referenced in this vacancy https://www.transporagroup.co.uk/duty-manager/london

 

[MotCO]

Believe this operation will be called "Londoner Buses" as that is referenced in this vacancy https://www.transporagroup.co.uk/duty-manager/london

Surprised that they are not using DMSs then

 

[busesrusuk]

Surprised that they are not using DMSs then

It would be a lot more interesting if they did....

 

[dan5324]

Manchester Bus Tours has made a London Service Permit (LSP) application to run sightseeing tours from Waterloo every 20 minutes from July using routemaster buses

https://ehq-production-europe.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/f5bd97bb9bcb3f1aeb99847ab322df5ba005f260/original/1653386636/1b22907118a5021d869094eed0edaa18_Manchester_Bus_Tours_-_A_-_July_22.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIBJCUKKD4ZO4WUUA%2F20220525%2Feu-west-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220525T122450Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=1d9e1758f7abb37a315e6c2f0ff84e8fa2d7c52c6c849fb2c38e2ea8d9f77814

Just what London needs…

 

[Snow1964]

Tower Transits one remaining bus garage Lea Interchange has been bought by Stagecoach

Westbourne Park became part of RATP last year

So Tower Transit has lasted 9 years since it was formed when First Group sold off their London operations

404 HTML Template

Stagecoach acquires east London bus operations from Kelsian Group

Stagecoach is pleased to confirm that its subsidiary, Stagecoach Bus Holdings Limited, has entered into binding agreements to acquire Kelsian Group's east London bus operations and depot at Lea Interchange for total consideration of £20m. Upon completion, £10m will be payable, with a further £1m per annum payable for ten years commencing on the first anniversary following completion, subject to certain conditions.

The acquisition is a good strategic fit with Stagecoach's existing operations in east and south-east London. Lea Interchange depot is well located close to Stratford, the busiest station in the UK. It operates eleven contracts on behalf of TfL using a fleet of around 150 buses, with an annual turnover of around £38m.

The acquired contracts have an acceptable expiry profile and there are opportunities to improve operational performance and grow contract margins as routes are retendered.

Additionally, the acquired depot provides a positive platform to bid for new contracts in the area over the short and medium term. In addition to the initial £10m consideration, we would anticipate the incremental impact on Stagecoach's net debt upon completion to increase by around a further £20m, reflecting the IFRS 16 liabilities associated with the vehicle and property leases.

Martin Griffiths, Stagecoach Chief Executive, said: "We have an extensive track-record of operating high-quality and profitable bus services on behalf of Transport for London.

"This targeted acquisition provides operational and margin improvement opportunities that we have successfully delivered at our other London bus depots.

"We look forward to working with TfL to deliver even better bus links to local communities in east London and also helping support the Mayor's drive to deliver a net zero transport system."

Lea Interchange is currently operating with about 140 buses, well short of its capacity which is nearer 250. It remains to be seen if Stagecoach will use it for growth, or shut another garage. Leyton and West Ham are nearest, both locations that have been suggested for apartments in the past.

 

[Mikey C]

Tower Transits one remaining bus garage Lea Interchange has been bought by Stagecoach

Westbourne Park became part of RATP last year

So Tower Transit has lasted 9 years since it was formed when First Group sold off their London operations

404 HTML Template

Lea Interchange is currently operating with about 140 buses, well short of its capacity which is nearer 250. It remains to be seen if Stagecoach will use it for growth, or shut another garage. Leyton and West Ham are nearest, both locations that have been suggested for apartments in the past.

Which will further reduce local competition in tendering. If such a thing exists now, other than minor swaps between operators!

 

[TitanMike]

Tower Transits one remaining bus garage Lea Interchange has been bought by Stagecoach

Westbourne Park became part of RATP last year

So Tower Transit has lasted 9 years since it was formed when First Group sold off their London operations

404 HTML Template

Lea Interchange is currently operating with about 140 buses, well short of its capacity which is nearer 250. It remains to be seen if Stagecoach will use it for growth, or shut another garage. Leyton and West Ham are nearest, both locations that have been suggested for apartments in the past.

Tower Transit still have their 12.5% stake in RATP London Transit but cant see that lasting too much longer.

 

[Statto]

Tower Transits one remaining bus garage Lea Interchange has been bought by Stagecoach

Westbourne Park became part of RATP last year

So Tower Transit has lasted 9 years since it was formed when First Group sold off their London operations

404 HTML Template

Lea Interchange is currently operating with about 140 buses, well short of its capacity which is nearer 250. It remains to be seen if Stagecoach will use it for growth, or shut another garage. Leyton and West Ham are nearest, both locations that have been suggested for apartments in the past.

Can't see West Ham being sold for flats or apartments, it's in an Industrial area which looks to be unsuitable for flats or apartments, although i know stranger things have happened, if anything Leyton most likely depot to be sold for flats or apartments

 

[Man of Kent]

Can't see West Ham being sold for flats or apartments, it's in an Industrial area which looks to be unsuitable for flats or apartments, although i know stranger things have happened, if anything Leyton most likely depot to be sold for flats or apartments

Agreed, particularly as I understand TfL own the West Ham premises - Stagecoach is just the leaseholder.

 

[Statto]

Agreed, particularly as I understand TfL own the West Ham premises - Stagecoach is just the leaseholder.

Didn't know that, i know West Ham replaced Stratford, which was redeveloped for the Olympics.

 

[Flinn Reed]

Tower Transits one remaining bus garage Lea Interchange has been bought by Stagecoach

Westbourne Park became part of RATP last year

So Tower Transit has lasted 9 years since it was formed when First Group sold off their London operations

404 HTML Template

Lea Interchange is currently operating with about 140 buses, well short of its capacity which is nearer 250. It remains to be seen if Stagecoach will use it for growth, or shut another garage. Leyton and West Ham are nearest, both locations that have been suggested for apartments in the past.

Stagecoach's Bow garage is not far away from Lea Interchange either

 

[Intro298]

Where on the lots website do you find that information? Do you buy a magazine or something

Where on the lots website do you find that information? Do you buy a magazine or something

Lots of the information from LOTS (no pun intended) and other reliable sources is thrown around in The Bus Forum and if you don’t already use it I recommend it for finding the latest news.

 

[Snow1964]

Didn't know that, i know West Ham replaced Stratford, which was redeveloped for the Olympics.

West Ham and Lea Interchange bus garages were both as a result of original sites at Stratford and Waterden Road respectively being required for the Olympics.

I think the Olympic Delivery Authority bought the sites, got Pringle Richards Sharratt (architects) to design new garages then passed West Ham to TfL to lease out to Stagecoach. Lea Interchange was leased to First bus, until First sold it out to Transit Systems of Australia (now Kelsian).

I know Lea Interchange is leased (it is in Tower Transits accounts), but I think site might be owned by London & Continental Railways (it was part of the old Temple Mills rail yards).

As far as I’m aware the large former bus parking area just to the north of West Ham bus garage building is being redeveloped as part of the 3838 home development called Twelve Trees Park

National planning award for 3,800-home West Ham development

A 3,838-home development in West Ham which transformed disused industrial land has been recognised with a national planning award.

www.newhamrecorder.co.uk

 

[Busoccultation]

Which will further reduce local competition in tendering. If such a thing exists now, other than minor swaps between operators!

That part of East London and bits of North London is one of the most competitive areas of London when it comes to tenders in the recent years where it is common for some of the routes in the area to receive 5 bidders for that tender and even when Lea Interchange goes to Stagecoach, you still got Arriva, Go-Ahead, HCT and even Metroline for a small number of routes in the area as the competitions.

 

[Statto]

West Ham and Lea Interchange bus garages were both as a result of original sites at Stratford and Waterden Road respectively being required for the Olympics.

I think the Olympic Delivery Authority bought the sites, got Pringle Richards Sharratt (architects) to design new garages then passed West Ham to TfL to lease out to Stagecoach. Lea Interchange was leased to First bus, until First sold it out to Transit Systems of Australia (now Kelsian).

I know Lea Interchange is leased (it is in Tower Transits accounts), but I think site might be owned by London & Continental Railways (it was part of the old Temple Mills rail yards).

As far as I’m aware the large former bus parking area just to the north of West Ham bus garage building is being redeveloped as part of the 3838 home development called Twelve Trees Park

National planning award for 3,800-home West Ham development

A 3,838-home development in West Ham which transformed disused industrial land has been recognised with a national planning award.

www.newhamrecorder.co.uk

I see that proposal is on disused land north of Stagecoach West Ham depot, not currently occupied by anyone, that land that was originally proposed for West Ham United's new stadium, until West Ham decided to move to the London Stadium,, nothing in the article mentions building on Stagecoach West Ham depot, which is next to other industrial units.

 

[busesrusuk]

I see that proposal is on disused land north of Stagecoach West Ham depot, not currently occupied by anyone, that land that was originally proposed for West Ham United's new stadium, until West Ham decided to move to the London Stadium,, nothing in the article mentions building on Stagecoach West Ham depot, which is next to other industrial units.

The area in question was the site of one of the two "pop up" bus garages that was created for the Olympic games in 2012 as mentioned in the blurb on the link provided above about the redevelopment.