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There's risk across the industry, but some guards on commuter routes, along with booking office staff, might be worried. Those roles, in some parts of the country at least, really need re-skilling and their job roles tweaking.
This has been coming for about the last ten years.
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I have to say I’ve never felt *more* confident in my job security as a driver than I do now, after seeing how thin on the ground we are these days. We regularly receive emails begging for overtime and passenger numbers on the trains I work, and those I commute on, are increasingly healthy.
I think passenger TOC drivers are pretty safe. In the short term some rail freight may contract if the industry shows that it is unreliable this year, but the role and numbers of TOC drivers is unlikely to change much, other than perhaps taking on some DOO duties (expect that of course to come with a negotiated pay premium).
Hard for a government to claim anything is unaffordable when they’ve just today spent £10bn (the amount not covered by the “windfall tax”) on subsidising peoples energy bills.
Of course, whether they *want* to afford it is another matter.
Um, in the same way that in your personal finances if you just had to fork out thousands to do essential repairs on your roof you would be less likely to go on an expensive holiday. In the current international inflationary situation, printing money is clearly a recipe for disaster, tackling the cost of living crisis was regarded as essential, I suspect that the railways are regarded more as a luxury that the country can't afford right now.
I have to say I’ve never felt *more* confident in my job security as a driver than I do now, after seeing how thin on the ground we are these days. We regularly receive emails begging for overtime and passenger numbers on the trains I work, and those I commute on, are increasingly healthy.
given the demographics of Drivers in general, I think it’s fair to say they have the least to worry about. Unless you work in a FOC, some of whom have a real threat of losing substantial traffic, and potentially going out of business, in the event of a serious strike.
Signallers similarly. Not coincidentally it is these two ‘grades’ that hold the power of industrial action.
the rest of us of us are much more at risk. Please do think about what striking might do to the job security of the 90%+ of those in the industry who are not drivers or signallers.
Even as a driver, I don’t feel overly safe these days. Safe in the job, yes, but not safe from fire and rehire. I’ve spent the last couple of days looking at alternative employment opportunities and it turns out I can’t do squat outside the railway so I hope I can stay.
Still no interest in striking over a (lack of) pay deal this year.
Even as a driver, I don’t feel overly safe these days. Safe in the job, yes, but not safe from fire and rehire. I’ve spent the last couple of days looking at alternative employment opportunities and it turns out I can’t do squat outside the railway so I hope I can stay.
Still no interest in striking over a (lack of) pay deal this year.
Nobody being bankrolled by the Treasury should be too complacent in the coming years, big cuts are almost certain to happen somewhere to offset the cost of covid & energy crisis spending.
Hard for a government to claim anything is unaffordable when they’ve just today spent £10bn (the amount not covered by the “windfall tax”) on subsidising peoples energy bills.
Of course, whether they *want* to afford it is another matter.
That £10 billion is £10 billion less for other government spending, and only increases the pressure on everything else.
At the very least it adds a year to the notional recovery time from the Covid overspend/economic impact.
Spending on the energy/food crises was unavoidable, unlike spending on rail.
Opening Crossrail moves that enterprise from capital to opex spend and so is part of the TfL cost burden.
HS2 will be mostly capex ("investment") spend for the rest of the decade.
Yes I can see them trying it but it won’t work for exactly the reasons you outlined very clearly.
I am only halfway through my career, just under 30 years service to go, so the whole modernising agenda and potential for a long drawn out battle between the union and the government is really worrying. There is nowhere else I could work, I have only ever worked on the railway and have no qualifications. If I get booted out of NR then I’m stuffed. I’d have to go and work in one of those hand carwashes or something. It is, of course, my own fault for not trying harder at school.
Even as a driver, I don’t feel overly safe these days. Safe in the job, yes, but not safe from fire and rehire. I’ve spent the last couple of days looking at alternative employment opportunities and it turns out I can’t do squat outside the railway so I hope I can stay.
Still no interest in striking over a (lack of) pay deal this year.
You will be surprised how many jobs out there suit the person and not the qualifications.
I have crawled up three career ladders without having the required qualifications at the outset. The third when I was 48.
The oft quoted 'should have tried harder at school' was clearly a PR disaster. However, there is a point to be made. The days when you had a job for life are gone. Those people who want to 'get on' and insulate themselves from the vagaries of technological change and closure of complete industries, like mining, study for qualifications. Qualifications mean you can look for other jobs both in the railway and outside it. Do nothing in an industry where there are few or no similar jobs paying similar wages elsewhere and you are vulnerable. Mainframe computer operators used to earn very good money for what they did as they could shut down businesses, but only the biggest businesses use mainframes now, many redundant operators found they could only get a fraction of their wages in new jobs.
The oft quoted 'should have tried harder at school' was clearly a PR disaster. However, there is a point to be made. The days when you had a job for life are gone. Those people who want to 'get on' and insulate themselves from the vagaries of technological change and closure of complete industries, like mining, study for qualifications. Qualifications mean you can look for other jobs both in the railway and outside it. Do nothing in an industry where there are few or no similar jobs paying similar wages elsewhere and you are vulnerable. Mainframe computer operators used to earn very good money for what they did as they could shut down businesses, but only the biggest businesses use mainframes now, many redundant operators found they could only get a fraction of their wages in new jobs.
Thanks, I’m fully aware of how vulnerable to redundancy I am. Unfortunately I also know my limits. I’m thick and very unlikely to ever be accepted to college or university to study for proper qualifications. Working for the railway has allowed me and my family to have a decent house and a decent standard of living. I don’t expect the rail industry to be financially underwritten to act as a sort of job creation scheme for no-hopers like me, I’m wiser than that, but it doesn’t change the fact that if (when?) the mass redundancies come my family’s standard of living and home are at threat. I did try very hard at school but people like me are just not cut out for it, that’s why the Yammer comment stung so much.
Thanks, I’m fully aware of how vulnerable to redundancy I am. Unfortunately I also know my limits. I’m thick and very unlikely to ever be accepted to college or university to study for proper qualifications. Working for the railway has allowed me and my family to have a decent house and a decent standard of living. I don’t expect the rail industry to be financially underwritten to act as a sort of job creation scheme for no-hopers like me, I’m wiser than that, but it doesn’t change the fact that if (when?) the mass redundancies come my family’s standard of living and home are at threat. I did try very hard at school but people like me are just not cut out for it, that’s why the Yammer comment stung so much.
You are doing your self a disservice. You had to train to do the job you do and you write well and you spell v well. I'm sure you could learn. I didn't really smash school. I was rubbish at a lot of stuff, but since then and by myself I have become good at math. I have learnt on several different jobs over the years and became a driver at 48. Of course I hope you stay in the job you want , but don't do yourself down.
There's risk across the industry, but some guards on commuter routes, along with booking office staff, might be worried. Those roles, in some parts of the country at least, really need re-skilling and their job roles tweaking.
This has been coming for about the last ten years.
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I think passenger TOC drivers are pretty safe. In the short term some rail freight may contract if the industry shows that it is unreliable this year, but the role and numbers of TOC drivers is unlikely to change much, other than perhaps taking on some DOO duties (expect that of course to come with a negotiated pay premium).
the rest of us of us are much more at risk. Please do think about what striking might do to the job security of the 90%+ of those in the industry who are not drivers or signallers.
Yes, apologies if that came across wrongly. I’m not trying to in any way downplay the fact that it’s a very worrying time for many. However I suspect there may well also be a feeling that, if nothing is done, things will only get worse anyway so there is need to take action.
Oft *misquoted* (as here). She was actually taking about the gap between senior management and frontline worker pay, and included herself in the group who “should have worked harder at school”. It was indeed a badly advised comment, though. Especially for someone who is supposedly a “communications director”.
However, there is a point to be made. The days when you had a job for life are gone. Those people who want to 'get on' and insulate themselves from the vagaries of technological change and closure of complete industries, like mining, study for qualifications.
There’s that tired comparison to mines again. It doesn’t get any less ludicrous every time it’s mentioned.
The “resistance to technology” argument is often a red herring cynically used to play to the (beloved on here) Daily Mail stereotype of unions as being old fashioned/dinosaurs etc. whereas that isn’t necessarily the case. The resistance is generally to changes in working practices making people worse off. Ticket scanning being a prime example: the unions aren’t opposed to the technology per se, they’re opposed to members losing thousands of pounds per year through no fault of their own.
Why on Earth would anyone imagine that a trade union representing railway workers should just accept that lying down? I get the impression many posters here would quite willingly accept their bosses saying “sorry mate, £5000 less for you this year”! Or more likely they wouldn’t, but no matter when it’s happening to someone else…
Most people who have done specialist jobs for long periods, especially if they don’t rank highly in terms of transferable skills, will find it hard to move outside without starting from scratch on lower wages. That includes many specialist technical roles requiring a high degree of training. As for training/upskilling, it’s worth noting the unions themselves do actively encourage this. However perhaps stop to consider that it’s often unrealistic for people to actually do this in practice, especially for low paid workers during a cost of living crisis! People are often working long hours to pay their bills, have the small matter of families to raise etc. Or are simply of an age where they’re too young to retire but too old to start again…
Should they all just be thrown into the scrap heap? I’m sure the answer from many on here is “yes”. Hence the ongoing race to the bottom.
I'd imagine they will be looking at the Dutch model with virtual no ticket offices, fully barriered stations and almost no gateline staff. It works perfectly well there based on my recent trip.
If course we have a much more complex network, but it would fit our large conurbations if not the more rural areas.
The trend in many industries over time has been the use of more plant equipment and less staff - although there have been some cases of things going the other way, like car washes.
I would expect that to continue, although if staff are fortunate perhaps most headcount reductions will be obtained through "natural" attrition rather than redundancies, but I wouldn't count on it.
Back to the original topic question - I’d add platform dispatch staff to the list. In many regards the growth of assisted travel for disabled customers as well as the general safety and security of customers at stations partially helps to reduce the likelihood for total axing of station staff, although I see many locations seem to have what look like agency, or at least lower-paid non safety critical staff.
It seems that many stations still retain dispatch staff I wonder perhaps as a hangover from the days of slam door stock, HSTs and long loco hauled trains where the RA might need to be repeated to the driver and platform staff would be needed to manually close doors to ensure an on time departure.
I’m not talking about every station here - many will retain platform staff for management of customers on the platform from a reliability perspective and of course the safety risks from PTI (platform train interface) incidents which is probably one of the biggest risks on the railway. There are also some locations like Birmingham New St where platform staff use the RA indicator to mitigate against SASPADs (starting against Spads), but it does beg the question how places like Watford Jcn retained platform staff to dispatch 1tph Pendolino in each direction where much busier 8 and 12 car local trains are self dispatch, and similarly all those platform staff provided on the XC network to dispatch 4 and 5 car Voyagers.
I’m not talking about every station here - many will retain platform staff for management of customers on the platform from a reliability perspective and of course the safety risks from PTI (platform train interface) incidents which is probably one of the biggest risks on the railway. There are also some locations like Birmingham New St where platform staff use the RA indicator to mitigate against SASPADs (starting against Spads), but it does beg the question how places like Watford Jcn retained platform staff to dispatch 1tph Pendolino in each direction where much busier 8 and 12 car local trains are self dispatch, and similarly all those platform staff provided on the XC network to dispatch 4 and 5 car Voyagers.
Same at MKC, there's a small team of dispatchers for Avanti services, yet LNR quite happily self dispatch 12-car sets which are only 25m shorter and have far higher loadings and (in the evenings) far worse passenger behaviour.
There are some places where there are issues with curved platforms, but in that case even if you stick with guards you can provide "DOO cameras" and platform monitors to aid guard dispatch, there are some at Berkhamsted and I think one or two Merseyrail stations.
I am only halfway through my career, just under 30 years service to go, so the whole modernising agenda and potential for a long drawn out battle between the union and the government is really worrying. There is nowhere else I could work, I have only ever worked on the railway and have no qualifications. If I get booted out of NR then I’m stuffed. I’d have to go and work in one of those hand carwashes or something. It is, of course, my own fault for not trying harder at school.
I know the feeling. I too have only ever worked for the railway, have very little in the way of outside qualifications, and there's been no other industry that's captured my interest like this one has. Even if there's still a place for me on the railway in the future it won't be the same as the job I knew at first, I can't envision what the closest equivalent role will be for me by the time I reach retirement age in 30, 40 years. The only saving grace is that although railway qualifications mean nothing to the outside world there are still transferrable skills—communication, safety, ability to react to incidents, etc.
I would expect that to continue, although if staff are fortunate perhaps most headcount reductions will be obtained through "natural" attrition rather than redundancies, but I wouldn't count on it.
At the present time I think there are quite a few people who would go. I know several who have been delaying retirement, first due to the pandemic meaning they might as well go to work because there wasn't much else they could do, and then holding out in the hopes of redundancy. If voluntary redundancy was offered a lot would take it, but even if a definitive answer was given that there would be no redundancy offered a lot would be seriously looking at their finances and going anyway if they could afford to. There's a not insignificant proportion of people who are of an age where they're looking to retire in the not too distant future, have already worked through too many changes, and don't have the appetite for this next bout of changes.
Yes I can see them trying it but it won’t work for exactly the reasons you outlined very clearly.
I am only halfway through my career, just under 30 years service to go, so the whole modernising agenda and potential for a long drawn out battle between the union and the government is really worrying. There is nowhere else I could work, I have only ever worked on the railway and have no qualifications. If I get booted out of NR then I’m stuffed. I’d have to go and work in one of those hand carwashes or something. It is, of course, my own fault for not trying harder at school.
I’m with you on this. I have no qualifications beyond GCSE and still a good 30 years to go. University was beyond me, so I do hope I can stay on the railway for a good while longer yet.
You will be surprised how many jobs out there suit the person and not the qualifications.
I have crawled up three career ladders without having the required qualifications at the outset. The third when I was 48.
Thanks, I’m someone who can’t use a computer beyond posting on a railway forum, and I do that on my phone anyway. Almost all jobs need some degree of computer competency these days. The world has left folk like me behind.
Back to the original topic question - I’d add platform dispatch staff to the list. In many regards the growth of assisted travel for disabled customers as well as the general safety and security of customers at stations partially helps to reduce the likelihood for total axing of station staff, although I see many locations seem to have what look like agency, or at least lower-paid non safety critical staff.
It seems that many stations still retain dispatch staff I wonder perhaps as a hangover from the days of slam door stock, HSTs and long loco hauled trains where the RA might need to be repeated to the driver and platform staff would be needed to manually close doors to ensure an on time departure.
I’m not talking about every station here - many will retain platform staff for management of customers on the platform from a reliability perspective and of course the safety risks from PTI (platform train interface) incidents which is probably one of the biggest risks on the railway. There are also some locations like Birmingham New St where platform staff use the RA indicator to mitigate against SASPADs (starting against Spads), but it does beg the question how places like Watford Jcn retained platform staff to dispatch 1tph Pendolino in each direction where much busier 8 and 12 car local trains are self dispatch, and similarly all those platform staff provided on the XC network to dispatch 4 and 5 car Voyagers.
Thanks, I’m fully aware of how vulnerable to redundancy I am. Unfortunately I also know my limits. I’m thick and very unlikely to ever be accepted to college or university to study for proper qualifications. Working for the railway has allowed me and my family to have a decent house and a decent standard of living. I don’t expect the rail industry to be financially underwritten to act as a sort of job creation scheme for no-hopers like me, I’m wiser than that, but it doesn’t change the fact that if (when?) the mass redundancies come my family’s standard of living and home are at threat. I did try very hard at school but people like me are just not cut out for it, that’s why the Yammer comment stung so much.
i think, but gladly except correction, that every job no matter what or where, has to have a degree of training, the old adage "if a manager/anybody is missing we can manage, but if the toilet cleaner is there's chaos", or words to that effect... so all jobs are important, and the experience learnt ,but there's no job for life.
Thanks, I’m fully aware of how vulnerable to redundancy I am. Unfortunately I also know my limits. I’m thick and very unlikely to ever be accepted to college or university to study for proper qualifications. Working for the railway has allowed me and my family to have a decent house and a decent standard of living. I don’t expect the rail industry to be financially underwritten to act as a sort of job creation scheme for no-hopers like me, I’m wiser than that, but it doesn’t change the fact that if (when?) the mass redundancies come my family’s standard of living and home are at threat. I did try very hard at school but people like me are just not cut out for it, that’s why the Yammer comment stung so much.
Don't do yourself down. I don't know your role ( can guess from the picture) but you must have loads of skills (especially practical skills) that would be beyond me. I couldn't do your job and I worked fairly hard at school! Thick people don't construct sentences like your quote. What you mean is that your didn't perform well educationally at school. That is VERY different to being "thick".
get yourself on an adult education course. Computers aren't hard, honestly. You don't need to know how to build or fix one just how to use basic office functions and send emails.
The only saving grace is that although railway qualifications mean nothing to the outside world there are still transferrable skills—communication, safety, ability to react to incidents, etc.
I know it's difficult to be faced with redundancy. I've been put at risk twice in the last 10 years.
I would urge those affected not to worry too much about something that might not even happen and is out of your control if it does. You will tie yourself up in knots and it will do you no good at all.
We are still going to have a railway. We'll still need drivers, signallers, maintenance workers, station staff and onboard staff. Roles may change, but that's been happening from the dawn of time. Numbers may reduce but voluntary severance will probably deal with a lot of that. And ultimately if the worse happens you will have skills and experience that will be valuable to another employer, even in a completely different industry.
Don't do yourself down. I don't know your role ( can guess from the picture) but you must have loads of skills (especially practical skills) that would be beyond me. I couldn't do your job and I worked fairly hard at school! Thick people don't construct sentences like your quote. What you mean is that your didn't perform well educationally at school. That is VERY different to being "thick".
Indeed! Qualifications are not a barrier at all, I'd say it's actually most important to be able to use a computer on a high level in terms of office/productivity applications. Many office jobs are procedure-based anyway, something that the railway also is.
get yourself on an adult education course. Computers aren't hard, honestly. You don't need to know how to build or fix one just how to use basic office functions and send emails.
Then just go to town on it. Break it in every possible way, reinstall Windows 1000 times, get furious because you've trashed your Windows installation yet again, and you can learn everything you need to know. If you enjoy it, then you can start learning how to use Office programmes. There's a wealth of material online that you can learn from, and so many forums where you can ask questions on virtually anything. If you get yourself to the point where you've got a very solid grasp of Microsoft Office, then you're already better than the majority of candidates. For instance, people who really know how to use Microsoft Excel are few and far between.
Thanks, I’m fully aware of how vulnerable to redundancy I am. Unfortunately I also know my limits. I’m thick and very unlikely to ever be accepted to college or university to study for proper qualifications. Working for the railway has allowed me and my family to have a decent house and a decent standard of living. I don’t expect the rail industry to be financially underwritten to act as a sort of job creation scheme for no-hopers like me, I’m wiser than that, but it doesn’t change the fact that if (when?) the mass redundancies come my family’s standard of living and home are at threat. I did try very hard at school but people like me are just not cut out for it, that’s why the Yammer comment stung so much.
You may be rather surprised if you take a closer look at what you have going for you, have achieved and potentially can do. Whilst many people have not done particularly well at school, dismissing yourself or others as thick is defeatist. Some people just don't get school at all, get bullied, get in with wrong crowd, can't stand noise etc and find that later on in life, with appropriate help it makes a lot more sense. It isn't easy but employers often give considerable credit to those who try to improve their knowledge, even from a low base. There are plenty of people with degrees who have less common sense than you do for a start!
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Indeed! Qualifications are not a barrier at all, I'd say it's actually most important to be able to use a computer on a high level in terms of office/productivity applications. Many office jobs are procedure-based anyway, something that the railway also is.
Then just go to town on it. Break it in every possible way, reinstall Windows 1000 times, get furious because you've trashed your Windows installation yet again, and you can learn everything you need to know. If you enjoy it, then you can start learning how to use Office programmes. There's a wealth of material online that you can learn from, and so many forums where you can ask questions on virtually anything. If you get yourself to the point where you've got a very solid grasp of Microsoft Office, then you're already better than the majority of candidates. For instance, people who really know how to use Microsoft Excel are few and far between.
Once you're familiar with the basics, you could try the ECDL (European computer driving licence) , which I believe can be done online and gives you a qualification. A qualification like this shows your current employer or other employer that you are prepared to upskill yourself and can do it. Every little advantage you have over others is of value.
Don't do yourself down. I don't know your role ( can guess from the picture) but you must have loads of skills (especially practical skills) that would be beyond me. I couldn't do your job and I worked fairly hard at school! Thick people don't construct sentences like your quote. What you mean is that your didn't perform well educationally at school. That is VERY different to being "thick".
get yourself on an adult education course. Computers aren't hard, honestly. You don't need to know how to build or fix one just how to use basic office functions and send emails.
Indeed! Qualifications are not a barrier at all, I'd say it's actually most important to be able to use a computer on a high level in terms of office/productivity applications. Many office jobs are procedure-based anyway, something that the railway also is.
Then just go to town on it. Break it in every possible way, reinstall Windows 1000 times, get furious because you've trashed your Windows installation yet again, and you can learn everything you need to know. If you enjoy it, then you can start learning how to use Office programmes. There's a wealth of material online that you can learn from, and so many forums where you can ask questions on virtually anything. If you get yourself to the point where you've got a very solid grasp of Microsoft Office, then you're already better than the majority of candidates. For instance, people who really know how to use Microsoft Excel are few and far between.
You may be rather surprised if you take a closer look at what you have going for you, have achieved and potentially can do. Whilst many people have not done particularly well at school, dismissing yourself or others as thick is defeatist. Some people just don't get school at all, get bullied, get in with wrong crowd, can't stand noise etc and find that later on in life, with appropriate help it makes a lot more sense. It isn't easy but employers often give considerable credit to those who try to improve their knowledge, even from a low base. There are plenty of people with degrees who have less common sense than you do for a start!
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Once you're familiar with the basics, you could try the ECDL (European computer driving licence) , which I believe can be done online and gives you a qualification. A qualification like this shows your current employer or other employer that you are prepared to upskill yourself and can do it. Every little advantage you have over others is of value.
Once you're familiar with the basics, you could try the ECDL (European computer driving licence) , which I believe can be done online and gives you a qualification. A qualification like this shows your current employer or other employer that you are prepared to upskill yourself and can do it. Every little advantage you have over others is of value.
Google also has courses: https://grow.google/certificates/#?modal_active=none - someone who worked on the railway has so many transferable skills. If you've got solid knowledge of Microsoft Office and perhaps one of these IT Support qualifications: https://grow.google/certificates/it-support (or maybe project management) then you're very employable. Everything else can be taught on the job, and usually is.
One thing I'd add is that most graduates usually have very poor Microsoft Office skills. They can do the basics, but real specialists are few and far between.
I don't think you can really make a station that broad-brush. Some roles have much better job security than others; there's certainly no prospect of all public transport permanently shutting down, even if individual lines and areas could see significant cutbacks and closures.
It remains the case that, in many areas, the railway offers higher wages and better conditions than people might be able to attain in equivalent employment outside the industry. So even if the worst were to happen and @DNCharingX were to be made redundant, they would still likely have benefitted from gaining experience and earning better money.
Admittedly the bus industry is not in nearly as good of a position and if that's what they were joining, I'd probably concur.
At the end of the day, I do think it's necessary to go into this with realistic expectations. Conditions and pay will not necessarily stay as generous as they sometimes are at the moment. Provided you're willing to accept that, I'd say crack on and enjoy it while the opportunities exist.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
