Fantasy Crossrail: Farringdon to King's Cross St Pancras

[MattRat]

So on the surface, this might seem a little pointless, but with a 'minor' Crossrail extension from Farringdon to King's Cross St Pancras, you have connected the GWML via Paddington and the WCML mainline via Old Oak Common to both the ECML, and Eurostar.

And yes while technically you can do this journey via Thameslink with one extra transfer, less transfers are always better for passengers.

For bonus points, you could make it a connect to both sides, which would connect it to Liverpool Street and the GEML.

Now, all this seems like massive potential for relatively little work, and solve the HS1 to HS2 problem via Old Oak Common, but what are your thoughts? Anything I missed?

 

[swt_passenger]

So on the surface, this might seem a little pointless, but with a 'minor' Crossrail extension from Farringdon to King's Cross St Pancras, you have connected the GWML via Paddington and the WCML mainline via Old Oak Common to both the ECML, and Eurostar.

And yes while technically you can do this journey via Thameslink with one extra transfer, less transfers are always better for passengers.

For bonus points, you could make it a connect to both sides, which would connect it to Liverpool Street and the GEML.

Now, all this seems like massive potential for relatively little work, and solve the HS1 to HS2 problem via Old Oak Common, but what are your thoughts? Anything I missed?

The purpose of Crossrail 1 was to relieve the Central and Jubilee Lines. You want Crossrail 2.

 

[zwk500]

I admire your definition of 'relatively little work'. Do you have any idea how congested the ground is underneath King's Cross St Pancras?

A branch would be a terrible idea as it'd waste paths through the core, building a loop out to King's Cross would make for some interesting geometry although it's feasible, I suppose, in a technical sense. Have a look at Carto metro for a sense of the actual geography: https://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/

Paddington to King's Cross without a change is possible via the circle line if you're that bothered. WCML to ECML/Eurostar will be easier to walk between Euston and St Pancras or King's Cross than any transfer, especially if they do improve Phoenix Road.

 

[yorkie]

So on the surface, this might seem a little pointless, but with a 'minor' Crossrail extension from Farringdon to King's Cross St Pancras, you have connected the GWML via Paddington and the WCML mainline via Old Oak Common to both the ECML, and Eurostar.

And yes while technically you can do this journey via Thameslink with one extra transfer, less transfers are always better for passengers.

For bonus points, you could make it a connect to both sides, which would connect it to Liverpool Street and the GEML.

Now, all this seems like massive potential for relatively little work, and solve the HS1 to HS2 problem via Old Oak Common, but what are your thoughts? Anything I missed?

This would be huge work and be really complex; it would be far better to simply build Crossrail 2!

Crossrail 2

Crossrail 2 would link national and international networks across London and the South East of England

crossrail2.co.uk

The new railway would stop at key locations throughout the city centre, including Tottenham Court Road, Euston St. Pancras, Victoria, Clapham Junction and Wimbledon. This would improve access to and from London across the wider South East, and significantly reduce congestion on existing Tube and National Rail services.

 

[MattRat]

The purpose of Crossrail 1 was to relieve the Central and Jubilee Lines. You want Crossrail 2.

This would be huge work and be really complex; it would be far better to simply build Crossrail 2!

Building a short extension would be harder than an entirely new line? How?

 

[zwk500]

Building a short extension would be harder than an entirely new line? How?

1. You've got to disrupt an existing line
2. Crossrail 1 goes nowhere near King's Cross.

 

[yorkie]

Building a short extension would be harder than an entirely new line? How?

I was more thinking it would be difficult operationally, with trains going a multitude of different routes all on one "line".

But it can also be harder to extend existing lines than build new ones, because you have to interface with what's already there and minimise disruption.

 

[swt_passenger]

Building a short extension would be harder than an entirely new line? How?

You mean another branch? From the middle of the core section?

 

[MattRat]

You mean another branch? From the middle of the core section?

Thameslink already has a path between the two. In fact, maybe connect the two lines if it's too much work to build a new line.

 

[mmh]

I was more thinking it would be difficult operationally, with trains going a multitude of different routes all on one "line".

That is what will be the case when Crossrail 1 fully opens. It's what happens on Thameslink, and we've often been told multiple destinations on a high frequency line are desirable as it means terminuses need not cope with huge numbers of trains and can be simple. Engineering practicality aside, I don't see why Crossrail is any different here.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thameslink already has a path between the two. In fact, maybe connect the two lines if it's too much work to build a new line.

You’re being ridiculous now.

 

[yorkie]

That is what will be the case when Crossrail 1 fully opens. It's what happens on Thameslink, and we've often been told multiple destinations on a high frequency line are desirable as it means terminuses need not cope with huge numbers of trains and can be simple. Engineering practicality aside, I don't see why Crossrail is any different here.

Not quite! Crossrail 1 is going to be a linear line with branches at each end.

But the suggestion here is to further add a triangular junction within the core, with some trains going GWML <> ECML, some ECML <> GEML and some GWML <> GEML. That's just crazy.

 

[mmh]

But the suggestion here is to further add a triangular junction within the core, with some trains going GWML <> ECML, some ECML <> GEML and some GWML <> GEML. That's just crazy.

Ah. Yes indeed, that would be crazy.

 

[306024]

Not quite! Crossrail 1 is going to be a linear line with branches at each end.

But the suggestion here is to further add a triangular junction within the core, with some trains going GWML <> ECML, some ECML <> GEML and some GWML <> GEML. That's just crazy.

Back to ‘my idea‘ (always a bad start) for a Hayes and Harlington to Harlington (Beds), Harlington (Beds) to Hayes (Kent) and Hayes (Kent) to Hayes and Harrington service. What could possibly go wrong

 

[Mikw]

I did Elizabeth line yesterday. I took Thameslink from St Pancs to Farringdon. journey time and the change took about 9 minutes. Can't imagine the time saving would warrant the billions of pounds needed.

 

[Starmill]

Thameslink already has a path between the two. In fact, maybe connect the two lines if it's too much work to build a new line.

If you built a new route off the crossrail core to Euston, you would have to use up the last remaining space under Euston - Kings Cross which is already protected for Crossrail 2. There is no further space available to build under the area.

 

[Basil Jet]

So on the surface, this might seem a little pointless, but with a 'minor' Crossrail extension from Farringdon to King's Cross St Pancras, you have connected the GWML via Paddington and the WCML mainline via Old Oak Common to both the ECML, and Eurostar.

And yes while technically you can do this journey via Thameslink with one extra transfer, less transfers are always better for passengers.

For bonus points, you could make it a connect to both sides, which would connect it to Liverpool Street and the GEML.

Now, all this seems like massive potential for relatively little work, and solve the HS1 to HS2 problem via Old Oak Common, but what are your thoughts? Anything I missed?

It looks like GWML trains will alll call at Old Oak which will have HS2 to whisk you to Euston quicker than the Elizabeth Line can get the platform doors closed. All Euston needs is a travelator to KXSP and you've got everything you want without messing up the Elizabeth Line. I suspect one travolator is cheaper than what you advocate.

 

[zwk500]

It looks like GWML trains will alll call at Old Oak which will have HS2 to whisk you to Euston quicker than the Elizabeth Line can get the platform doors closed. All Euston needs is a travelator to KXSP and you've got everything you want without messing up the Elizabeth Line. I suspect one travolator is cheaper than what you advocate.

A travellator along Euston Road is a completely unnecessary solution. All it needs is some better signs to Phoenix Road, maybe some arrows on the pavement, and a golf buggy-type thing for those who can't make the walk.

 

[Magdalia]

All it needs is some better signs to Phoenix Road, maybe some arrows on the pavement, and a golf buggy-type thing for those who can't make the walk.

That may be ok for young able bodied men, but the Phoenix Road walk is out of the question for old people, people with reduced mobility or women, especially after dark.

 

[stuu]

It looks like GWML trains will alll call at Old Oak which will have HS2 to whisk you to Euston quicker than the Elizabeth Line can get the platform doors closed. All Euston needs is a travelator to KXSP and you've got everything you want without messing up the Elizabeth Line. I suspect one travolator is cheaper than what you advocate.

I would be surprised if passengers are allowed to board at OOC to go to Euston.

The original idea in this thread is as barking as I have seen on these forums. Crossrail is designed to get across London and relieve the existing Underground network, not solve every conceivable problem. A glance at an actual map will show why it is so bad an idea

 

[swt_passenger]

I would be surprised if passengers are allowed to board at OOC to go to Euston.

The original idea in this thread is as barking as I have seen on these forums. Crossrail is designed to get across London and relieve the existing Underground network, not solve every conceivable problem. A glance at an actual map will show why it is so bad an idea

It might even be “riverside” - that’s the new beyond barking…

 

[Basil Jet]

I would be surprised if passengers are allowed to board at OOC to go to Euston.

Why? Passengers are allowed to board at Stratford International to go to St Pancras.

 

[The Planner]

Why? Passengers are allowed to board at Stratford International to go to St Pancras.

It isn't intended for those small hops, in the same way you are very unlikely to see OOC as a passenger stop on northbound trains. I would expect them to be set down/pick up only.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might even be “riverside” - that’s the new beyond barking…

"That's positively Upminster"

 

[cle]

Why? Passengers are allowed to board at Stratford International to go to St Pancras.

I actually think this journey should be encouraged and included in Oyster/PAYG per a tube journey.

Stratford Int is not Stratford - and that area needs to encourage growth beyond the Regional station too. A 7 min trip to the main Northern complex (and many jobs too, Kings Cross campus but also all the education and health closer to Euston) - is an amazing reliever of other lines. Especially off peak.

To the main post, nope. It'll be 24tph before long, and might even go upwards of that one day. It'll be too busy to divert. KXSP has plenty of provision.

It's time to stop building everything to KXSP, and to Stratford for that matter. CW is probably good now too. And let some density/agglomeration/hubbing happen elsewhere, at other compass points. OOC and various solutions for the Overground lines, Central walking, Chiltern etc etc etc - should be next to blow out. Especially if no-one wants to take on Clapham Junction.

Beyond that, get the Bakerloo past a nice new Elephant down to New Cross Gate and Lewisham which are all future important spots too in the SE direction.

 

[43096]

It might even be “riverside” - that’s the new beyond barking…

I thought the phrase was “It’s totally upminster”? In other words, eight stops beyond barking.

 

[Bald Rick]

All Euston needs is a travelator to KXSP and you've got everything you want without messing up the Elizabeth Line.

That may be ok for young able bodied men, but the Phoenix Road walk is out of the question for old people, people with reduced mobility or women, especially after dark.

there’s a thread on this somewhere, but there’s nowhere to put a translator - or even a walkway - without demolishing listed buildings.

and I now old people, including women, who are more than happy to walk between the two The ‘back’ way.

 

[WideRanger]

It isn't intended for those small hops, in the same way you are very unlikely to see OOC as a passenger stop on northbound trains. I would expect them to be set down/pick up only.

It reminds me of the fact that in Tokyo, Shinkansen leaving Tokyo station all stop at either Shinagawa (heading South) or Ueno (heading North). I've had a lot of acquaintances tell me that they are going to sample the Shinkansen by travelling the hop, and I always need to point out that between the stations the journey is similar to taking the local train, and definitely doesn't get up to Bullet Train speeds. Just a very, very expensive local hop of a few minutes.

 

[Basil Jet]

there’s a thread on this somewhere, but there’s nowhere to put a translator - or even a walkway - without demolishing listed buildings.

and I now old people, including women, who are more than happy to walk between the two The ‘back’ way.

Why couldn't you put a travelator in a trench under Phoenix Road and Brill Place?

 

[zwk500]

Why couldn't you put a travelator in a trench under Phoenix Road and Brill Place?

Presumably there's a sewer, gas and electric lines there at the moment.