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Rail industry preparing for national strikes

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Grumpy Git

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Notice that MP’s have had inflation busting pay increases in recent years, with definitely NO increase in productivity or the calibre of employee, (quite the opposite in fact, particularly in the Cabinet). The tax payer has always afforded these.
 
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Wolfie

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And I think this is the bit that is easy to overlook. I only spent 5 years or so in the Civil Service (in a specialist grade), in that time I realised that pay was not about what was realistic for the job but was about how much money HMT let the department have. We had a lot of skilled specialists, then HMT cut our budget so we had both a pay freeze AND removed progression up the salary band- quite a few staff left (I was amongst them).



I hope the whole issue of cutting Network Rail Maintenance and Ops staff doesn't get lost in the headline "it's about pay" message. There's some really worrying things proposed for Maintenance, I remember Phase 2b/c being bad but this is a whole league on from that. The difficulty is that bean-counters (including HMT?) do not understand the cost of reliability. Nor is the lack of staff in the signalling grade (vacancy level) helping.

I recall that in one particular part of Network Rail maintenance that I dealt with a few years ago, there was a cycle: reliability of S&T equipment would deteriorate, delay minutes stack up and be costly. So, more staff would be got and put on preventative maintenance. Lo and behold, over 6 months or so the reliability would improve until the delay minutes were minimal. About 6 months after that, the bean-counters would demand getting rid of a bunch of S&T preventative maintenance staff because the delay minutes were down so obviously they were not needed any more.......... :rolleyes: The concept that in preventative maintenance, your goal is "nothing" (no failures, no delay minutes) so your success is measured in being at "nothing" seemed totally beyond their comprehension.

The whole idea of "remote monitoring" as a staff cost-cutter has been kicking around for over a decade now. It suffers from some practical flaws: (1) You still need staff to attend the pending failure before the item fails; (2) the technology is simple on one level- the comms and sensors. But the challenge is what the sensors measure- what is the "about to fail" signal in the equipment? How long do you get after the signal starts before it fails? What is the lead-time of the possibly-obsolete part to fix the kit? And with a variety of equipment, you need to establish that for all the different types of kit. This is currently in the heads of skilled staff who over time build up this knowledge, but replacing the slowly-built "local knowledge" in the heads of staff isn't that simple. Then you have to somehow manage the big data output and convert it into a work regime.... and do all this whilst running trains. To (slightly mis)quote Ben Goldacre, "I think you'll find it's not as simple as you thought."

[I am sure there is room for cuts in Network Rail, but as I've said, not in Ops or Maintenance front-line staff and their local management/support. Possible economies might be from looking at the Projects regimes (the big projects don't seem able to understand/manage costs compared to other utilities) and also the amount of double-staffing in areas like Track Renewals (where too often there is a NR person as well as a contractor person doing the same thing where one would do). Similarly, integrating TOCs more could/should reduce senior management without a deleterious impact on the front line- how many TOC MDs are really required when DfT is running the show for example?]



Unfortunately, I fear you may be correct.



Indeed. At the start of my career, I spent a number of years in Local Government (in a rural local authority) before getting a Civil Service post. I worked in a Highways department- dealt with roads and transport including bus subsidies. Watching how budget decisions were made by the Elected Members was instructive. All departments competed for the fixed amount of funds from that years settlement- cash from council tax, business rates and the govt Revenue Support Grant (RSG). Council tax was capped and the RSG was whatever HMT decided we could have (in accordance with applicable formulae of the day for local govt funding).

The winners of the argument were inevitably those with (a) Statutory Duties to discharge and (b) the most emotive argument. Which meant that if it was a bit more money for schools vs enough to maintain the Highway in a good state/subsidise a rural bus service, I can assure you the the Highways dept lost out every time, we always got the absolute bare minimum. See, there's more votes in books for schools than there is in fixing potholes (or subsidising rural bus services). We tried every which way to argue our case. We tried to explain the role of transport as a social enabler. We mostly failed to get that message across.

And that's the situation the railway is now in. It's reliant on govt subsidy- which is not of itself a problem because transport infrastructure is a massive enabler of social mobility and access to services for all. However, when competing for funding out of a limited pot (and the pot is always limited) against the NHS, schools, defence and social care (etc), the railways will lose. BR had this same problem. (Roads tend to to a bit better on the national scale because the government takes so much tax from fuel- 75% or so of a litre of petrol/diesel being tax- and because some 90% or so journeys are by car). Where there is an uplift, too often it is earmarked for a vanity project or covering cost over-runs on existing projects.

Like others I am not trying to make political statements, just looking at where we are on a practical level. I believe that railway staff have a bunch of genuine grievances which need addressing, and that the picture is much more nuanced and complex than "merely" wanting a pay-rise. Whether or not RMT tactics address the grievances remains to be seen. Nor am I convinced it would be much different with Labour in govt as I suspect the way this will play out will be driven in large part by HMT. Also take into account those persons at the top with careers to build in GBR (can't imagine you will get promoted by openly defying HMT.....).

It is with a deep sorrow that I follow this thread, it's difficult to see an outcome that won't hurt a lot of people both within the industry and outwith it.

TPO
A really good explanatory post. Incidentally l worked as a CS specialist grade for most of my career.
 

mike57

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Sorry to be the one who breaks this to you, but subsidies don't confer any rights to totally unconnected people to dictate the terms and conditions of anyone's employment. This really is a poor take, do better, It's no different to (or better than) the children I used to drive to school telling me I had to do what they wanted as "our parents pay your wages". Puerile.
I was saying it slightly tounge in cheek, but I do think there is sometimes a disconnection between 'The government should fund this or that' and the source of that funding in peoples minds. No the public dont have direct say, but they do elect a government which represents them. Any settlement which increases costs either has to be funded by increased fares or increased subsidies or some combination.
 

LOL The Irony

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It’s a democratically controlled organisation comprised of the colleagues that you work with day in day out. If they vote to take strike action, and you undermine them by continuing to work while they are losing money, many of them will be less than impressed. And that can make things difficult when you have to continue to work with them afterwards.
That sounds a lot like a cult, whereby former and non members are looked down upon.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I have a strict policy these days about not commenting on something that I know little about, so I won’t get too involved. All I’ll say is, it appears the railway is becoming less and less of a passenger service these days, and more all about pacifying the unions. The ironic thing being, if the unions continue to drive customers away, they’ll then want to strike again when cuts are made due to the inevitable fall in passengers.

That’s how it appears anyway. I won’t comment further as it would be unwise to without more context. :)
 

Bumper

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Sorry I didn't reply to your original post. Those making helpful observations to your questions have hopefully reassured you somewhat. I can only concur with the view of staying in a trade union.

I've previously posted that I don't always agree with the RMT leadership, or stuff that comes out of Unity House. However, as a staff representative I, to the best of my abilities, try to help and advise signalling colleagues where I can - be it questions about leave, rosters or health, safety and welfare issues.

Like many others, I also advocate membership as an insurance policy. I've accompanied colleagues in disciplinary hearings or those that may be suffering health issues preventing them from doing their everyday role. Two differing examples of assisting colleagues.
  • New starter is implicated in a sexual harassment case whilst in signalling school, and potentially facing the sack. Disciplined, but kept their job.
  • Colleague with long-term health issues. Unable to continue in safety critical role. All possible options for redeployment discussed with management/ HR. Suitable resolution achieved for the member of staff. In this case ill health severance - though Network Rail view this as a "dismissal with pay".

Cheers High Dyke, another thoughtful and sensible response. I’ve been convinced to stick it out today by you and the other grown-ups and I feel much better about the whole thing, even though I still don’t have to particularly like it! I only wish I shared the certainty of the people who seem to think that disagreeing with the union on this point of principle = wanting to shaft your colleagues.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Notice that MP’s have had inflation busting pay increases in recent years, with definitely NO increase in productivity or the calibre of employee, (quite the opposite in fact, particularly in the Cabinet). The tax payer has always afforded these.
I think that your knowledge of the required functions of a Member of Parliament are somewhat lacking, especially when you make reference to productivity as being a requirement...:rolleyes:
 

142blue

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How true are the rumours of victimisation of those not participating in industrial action, with respect to the RMT? Or is that some fantasy 1970s thing that I have stuck in my head?

What am I truly giving up if I leave the union? The policies of Network Rail seem quite robust and I don’t see my immediate management as being particularly antagonistic from my admittedly short time on the railway. I am aware that these strong HR policies may only be there because of the existence of a strong union and that’s one of the reasons I’m struggling with this decision.

.
1. It's bullying. Sackable offence if anyone does that

2. I'd rather be in a union than not. Nothing stops you joining TSSA if you prefer.
 

paul1609

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Could the roads into and around London cope if all the rail commuters who can't work from home have to drive into the city?
It really depends on which axis you live. Driving in from Kent and Essex is really a matter of setting off an hour early with a push bike in the boot. The A23/ Brighton Line is a bit of a nightmare with no easy route in. Once you get round to West Sussex, Hampshire if you head to Richmond Park it's not too bad. The North West and North sectors have the tube not far from the M25.
 

matacaster

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There most certainly isn't. My word, if the last two years should have shown people anything, it's that. Google 'Quantitive Easing'. Being so forthright while being plain wrong really weakens any input you have in the wider discussion, the nation's finances are NOT like those of a household budget, the Bank Of England exists.
Whilst the bank of England can and does print money or indeed remove money and can also borrow money, it's not a free lunch. When the money supply is increased, then all money in that country is effectively devalued in respect of foreign imports. So if
everyone in the country got a 10% rise funded by simply printing money the number of pounds in everyone's pockets would be greater, but the value of each pound would be less. This can be seen as one of the factors affecting the exchange rates with other currencies. For some time, interest rates available to the govt have been next to nothing, so capital projects were best financed by debt, assuming there was some presumed payback -like hs2. This is likely to be changing and fixed deals over a long period may well be harder to get. Borrowing money to pay for recurring costs is generally considered bad economics and both Conservative and Labour have said they won't do it.
 

NI 271

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So what happens if the majority of members accept this deal, Boris forces it through the treasury, but Mick Lynch refuses to allow them to take it?
As this thread gets longer, it's becoming harder to distinguish between people saying things in earnest and those who are simply trolling.
 

43096

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Now that fare revenues are back up to circa 80% of pre pandemic levels perhaps there’s scope for removing railway staff from the definition of “public sector”. That would be a quick and easy way of avoiding any arbitrary pay cap.
Costs are not at 80% of pre pandemic levels, though.

And you can’t just remove NR staff (in particular) from the public sector definition, as that is what they are. Unless you’re prepared to throw them under the bus for the sake of TOC staff. There is plenty of precedent for drivers doing over other grades historically…
 

northwichcat

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Notice that MP’s have had inflation busting pay increases in recent years, with definitely NO increase in productivity or the calibre of employee, (quite the opposite in fact, particularly in the Cabinet). The tax payer has always afforded these.

Be careful what you wish for. MPs agreed to have an independent pay board review their salaries to ensure they are paid rates comparable to similar roles. It sounded good to voters, as it would prevent them giving themselves pay rises when similar occupations saw pay frozen. Unfortunately, the pay board review decided MPs were underpaid compared to similar roles.

Now think if the independent pay board was asked to review railway salaries, what role is there equivalent to a cleaner that pays more than a cleaner employed on the railway? Most cleaners earn the minimum wage, so as long as the railways comply with the minimum wage act, they probably wouldn't recommend any increase. Then what role is equivalent to a train driver? If they decide train drivers earn, on average, £5k more than equivalent roles outside the industry, you could face years and years of pay freezes if you have the same system in place as MPs!

It's also a bit of a generalisation that all MPs didn't increase their productivity. While there's MPs who are greedy and useless, there's also MPs who gave up significant amounts of their free time during the COVID pandemic to support the most vulnerable people.
 

dk1

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As this thread gets longer, it's becoming harder to distinguish between people saying things in earnest and those who are simply trolling.
I was thinking the same. It’s getting as tedious as it is speculative now.
 

Wolfie

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This stuff is very much the day to day bread and butter of the railway unions.
It's the daily bread and butter of any trade union. I was certainly glad to be a TU member a couple of years ago....
 

matacaster

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So not the apocalyptic close all booking offices , mothball the branchlines and implement DOO approach that the rhetoric from some on this forums suggests would be the case then

For once the treasury should listen to the industry and facilitate a negotiated settlement.

Hopefully Johnson will force it through.
I am sure that most people involved would be happy with a fair settlement. The union and its members would like 10% with no strings. I am certain Boris and the treasury ain't going to agree to that. However, much more flexible working practices and some job lossesmight mean that a doable maybe 2% could be significantly increased to everyone's joy!
 

NI 271

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Whilst the bank of England can and does print money or indeed remove money and can also borrow money, it's not a free lunch. When the money supply is increased, then all money in that country is effectively devalued in respect of foreign imports. So if
everyone in the country got a 10% rise funded by simply printing money the number of pounds in everyone's pockets would be greater, but the value of each pound would be less. This can be seen as one of the factors affecting the exchange rates with other currencies. For some time, interest rates available to the govt have been next to nothing, so capital projects were best financed by debt, assuming there was some presumed payback -like hs2. This is likely to be changing and fixed deals over a long period may well be harder to get. Borrowing money to pay for recurring costs is generally considered bad economics and both Conservative and Labour have said they won't do it.
A lot of words there, when "yes, I was wrong" would have sufficed. You said "That isn't how public finances work, there is a finite amount of cash knocking about & once its gone its gone." There isn't a finite amount of cash available, ever. That's not opinion, it's fact, at least until the Bank of England ceases to exist.

It's no good replying attributing things I've not said to me. My post was simple, if the government needs/wants cash at any time, even in times of rampant inflation, it can use QE to release it. It generally won't if it's unwise, for obvious reasons, but your post was factually inaccurate, mine wasn't, so didn't need 'correcting'.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Now that fare revenues are back up to circa 80% of pre pandemic levels perhaps there’s scope for removing railway staff from the definition of “public sector”. That would be a quick and easy way of avoiding any arbitrary pay cap.
I think it's passengers which are back to 80% (in some cases), but revenues will be considerably less with fewer season and business passengers paying high fares.
Network Rail staff are public sector permanently, and something like a third of TOCs are under direct government control (OLR, TfW, TS, TfL, Merseytravel).
Even the remaining "private" TOCs have no real control over their finances.
 
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matacaster

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A lot of words there, when "yes, I was wrong" would have sufficed. You said "That isn't how public finances work, there is a finite amount of cash knocking about & once its gone its gone." There isn't a finite amount of cash available, ever. That's not opinion, it's fact, at least until the Bank of England ceases to exist.

It's no good replying attributing things I've not said to me. My post was simple, if the government needs/wants cash at any time, even in times of rampant inflation, it can use QE to release it. It generally won't if it's unwise, for obvious reasons, but your post was factually inaccurate, mine wasn't, so didn't need 'correcting'.
It wasn't me who said what you quoted I'm afraid. I was just explaining that the government can print money, but it has consequences.
 

43066

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It's the daily bread and butter of any trade union. I was certainly glad to be a TU member a couple of years ago....

Indeed.

It strikes me that the problem with this thread and many similar ones is simply that many contributors:
a. don’t really understand what trade unions are or what their purpose is; or
b. are completely idiologically opposed to them (or a mixture of the two).

So constructive discussion becomes difficult and descends into people complaining that the RMT aren’t considering passengers’ interests, comparing them to cults, or suggesting that they should be saying to their members “Look at that other group of workers who haven’t had a pay rise for ten years, therefore neither should you expect one.”

That’s probably because relatively few workers belong to unions these days.

I think it's passengers which are back to 80% (in some cases), but revenues will be considerably less with fewer season and business passengers paying high fares.
Network Rail staff are public sector permanently, and something like a third of TOCs are under direct government control.

This was discussed on another thread recently and it was confirmed by someone with access to the latest figures that it is indeed revenue that’s now back up to 80%.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Cheers High Dyke, another thoughtful and sensible response. I’ve been convinced to stick it out today by you and the other grown-ups and I feel much better about the whole thing, even though I still don’t have to particularly like it! I only wish I shared the certainty of the people who seem to think that disagreeing with the union on this point of principle = wanting to shaft your colleagues.

I think that’s a very sensible decision.
 
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ComUtoR

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I have a strict policy these days about not commenting on something that I know little about, so I won’t get too involved. All I’ll say is, it appears the railway is becoming less and less of a passenger service these days, and more all about pacifying the unions. The ironic thing being, if the unions continue to drive customers away, they’ll then want to strike again when cuts are made due to the inevitable fall in passengers.

That’s how it appears anyway. I won’t comment further as it would be unwise to without more context. :)

It really is a matter of perspective. The Unions will often argue that they are protecting safety arrangements and protecting passengers. Does someone onboard a train provide customer service or should that member of staff be removed in favour of DOO ? You could easily argue that the Union is defending its members; and all of the other DOO arguments but ultimately doesn't that second member of staff benefit the passenger ? The Union will constantly fight for increased staffing levels and a reduction of rest day reliance. Yes, that's often through increased pay and conditions but again, ultimately isn't a better staffed railway a benefit for the passenger ?

The Union also does other things too. Pushing for LGBT rights and recognition, helping drive women in rail campaigns, fairness and inclusivity in recruitment etc.. Yes those are things that should be happening and protected by other means but ultimately this is encouraging people to apply for jobs and providing a happy working environment for all.

I remember the fight over whistle boards. While that fight was lost it was, and still is, about safety. I don't blow up at Whistle Boards for my benefit or even for the benefit of PWay. It was the public that they were trying to protect.

The Union/Gov/TOC relationship is much more than what is portrayed in the media or on a railway forum.

I'd be interested to know why you think its the Unions that are driving the passengers away.
 

the sniper

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Indeed.

It strikes me that the problem with this thread and many similar ones is simply that many contributors:
a. don’t really understand what trade unions are or what their purpose is; or
b. are completely idiologically opposed to them (or a mixture of the two).

So constructive discussion becomes difficult and descends into people complaining that the RMT aren’t considering passengers’ interests, comparing them to cults, or suggesting that they should be saying to their members “Look at that other group of workers who haven’t had a pay rise for ten years, therefore neither should you expect one.”

That’s probably because relatively few workers belong to unions these days.

Entirely agree. I think the age of some contributors is also a factor. I think there are a lot of young people now unfortunately for whom even stable employment is an alien concept, yet alone an organised workforce.
 

Bletchleyite

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Entirely agree. I think the age of some contributors is also a factor. I think there are a lot of young people now unfortunately for whom even stable employment is an alien concept, yet alone an organised workforce.

And some of us work in industries where the employer-employee relationship tends to be much less adversarial and can see the benefits of that. Without placing blame on either side, and from outside observation only, I think the relationship between employer and employee on the railway is not only adversarial but utterly poisonous. I don't however know how that can be fixed.
 

WelshBluebird

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There's also an element of jealously I think. "I don't have a union and have to settle for whatever scraps get thrown may way, why should they have it better" - totally ignoring the union is the very reason they have it better (and without unions we wouldnt have half of the employment rights we do these days).
 

muz379

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Hmm... maybe because they're threatening to make the railway useless to passengers for months on end? Could be something to do with it? :rolleyes:
This really is just hyperbole at this stage , no strikes have been announced only the ballot result and with the clear option of meaningful talks to avoid strike action .
 

ar10642

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There's also an element of jealously I think. "I don't have a union and have to settle for whatever scraps get thrown may way, why should they have it better" - totally ignoring the union is the very reason they have it better (and without unions we wouldnt have half of the employment rights we do these days).

There really isn't. I simply couldn't work in an environment where this rubbish is going on, imagine losing money and trashing your industry in pursuit of a pay deal that's never going to happen and trying to emotionally blackmail your colleagues into doing the same. If you don't like your pay and/or conditions, other jobs are available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This really is just hyperbole at this stage , no strikes have been announced only the ballot result and with the clear option of meaningful talks to avoid strike action .

OK, then I can point to the Southern DOO strikes which trashed our service for months and achieved nothing. That's a clear example of the unions making the railway a worse experience for passengers.
 
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