Rail industry preparing for national strikes

[Towers]

There will be a fair few this time round who not only can't afford to strike, they probably can't afford to work to rule.

Plus the rather large elephant in the room, the fact that any eventual pay rise will have already been spent by the staff striking over it. Bizarre politics indeed.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well that *certainly* isn’t how public finances have worked over the past couple of years when the Tories magically found the money to socialise the entire economy. There’s room for a little more of the same!

Quite honestly how the finances were handled was appalling, we shut too many businesses down for way to long, wasted ridiculous amounts of money, are shattered our economy for years. But it doesn't mean we can be free 'n' easy again.

But that wasn’t in any way done to benefit the staff, or something they had control over. I suggested a number of ways money could be raised - one of which was simply borrowing a little more.

Sorry you are saying furlough payments weren't for the benefit if staff? If so I'd tend to disagree, workers chucked out of their jobs because the government ordered them shut have a habit of needing money. The only other way they could have been paid would be to put them on Universal Credit (actually quite a few on 80% did end up on it).

Everyone hates the RMT anyway so they aren’t playing for sympathy. The disruption is unfortunate but that’s ultimately a bi product of people exercising their democratic right to withdraw their labour.

I seem to recall the RMT weren't exactly passenger friendly during the restrictions, so you know, swings and roundabouts.

I’m not actually one of them as I hope I’ve made clear. I just find the attack on a union representing modestly paid staff utterly depressing as it completely misses the real villains of the piece…

Unfortunately this is quite inevitable, and why unions need to drag their PR & negotiation teams, as well as methods out of the 1970s.

 

[LAX54]

Regardless of one’s views on the whole thing, I don’t think anyone can say there isn’t a fairly solid mandate for all this.

Unfortunately people are hacked off at the moment, the railway industry is by no means unique in this. I don’t think the RMT are out of step with a significant proportion of members.

This is only a mandate at this point, let’s hope some progress can be made in the meantime. I have to say I’m not hopeful that’s what will happen.

In the meantime we can merely hope that Sue Gray or someone else can manage to land a sufficiently hard punch to get rid of Johnson. Some seriousness in government in place of the sewer show we currently have must surely help things.

It was an unusual high turn out on the vote 71% of members voting, and of that as good as 90% voting Yes. having said that, a strike is the last thing they should start with, a ban on overtime would have a more disruptive effect, as they cannot cover many shifts on a normal day, and rely on overtime.
UK has the safest system in the World...... at the moment.......dilution of the way work is done is not the answer.

 

[Grumpy Git]

The only recent government which seems to have successfully managed to quietly get on with the job was the 2010-15 coalition, and for whatever reason that government seems to be remembered with dis fondness

.... because the leader of that government got spooked by his right-wing MP’s into believing Farage was going to win all their seats in ‘Little England’ and agreed to the disaster that was a referendum in 2016. Everything that is wrong in the UK stems from that descision.

 

[bramling]

Plus the rather large elephant in the room, the fact that any eventual pay rise will have already been spent by the staff striking over it. Bizarre politics indeed.

Not really, as in practice most places have RDW available, so the strike losses can be recouped by working a rest day. This applies even if there’s a “work to rule / no RDW” in place, as people can simply do it before or after.

 

[Towers]

Not really, as in practice most places have RDW available, so the strike losses can be recouped by working a rest day. This applies even if there’s a “work to rule / no RDW” in place, as people can simply do it before or after.

How can people work rest days if there is a continual work to rule in place?! Strike action will be odd days, WTR will likely be ongoing.

 

[High Dyke]

Thank you very much for this comment. You make a strong and reasonable argument and it’s reassuring to hear when a lot of the discourse, both on here and elsewhere, can be a bit heated. As I said, yours and other comments are doing a good deal to convince me to stick it out and take the hit this time.

Sorry I didn't reply to your original post. Those making helpful observations to your questions have hopefully reassured you somewhat. I can only concur with the view of staying in a trade union.

I've previously posted that I don't always agree with the RMT leadership, or stuff that comes out of Unity House. However, as a staff representative I, to the best of my abilities, try to help and advise signalling colleagues where I can - be it questions about leave, rosters or health, safety and welfare issues.

Like many others, I also advocate membership as an insurance policy. I've accompanied colleagues in disciplinary hearings or those that may be suffering health issues preventing them from doing their everyday role. Two differing examples of assisting colleagues.

• New starter is implicated in a sexual harassment case whilst in signalling school, and potentially facing the sack. Disciplined, but kept their job.
• Colleague with long-term health issues. Unable to continue in safety critical role. All possible options for redeployment discussed with management/ HR. Suitable resolution achieved for the member of staff. In this case ill health severance - though Network Rail view this as a "dismissal with pay".

 

[43066]

Quite ironic isn't it? Pay is often at least part of the reason for a strike, yet those who can't afford to strike get victimised by those who can afford to strike.

The objection is that those same colleagues are effectively standing on the backs of others by benefiting from Ts and Cs the union has previously negotiated. Unions also do a great deal more than enter into disputes, albeit that isn’t visible to those outside the industry.

What makes you think those respecting the mandate can afford the strike either? It’s a matter of principle for many. It also isn’t about victimisation but, if your colleagues simply dislike you, they will be less inclined to help you out. That’s same in any workplace, surely?

It’s sounds like you (and others) fundamentally reject the concept of trade unions and collective action in the first place, so there’s probably not much to be gained by discussing it further.

 

[matacaster]

You don't have a right to choose without consequences, though. Try booking a Ryanair flight with cash. Some choices will exclude one from some other choices. As a wildly different example, one can go to Iran on holiday, but doing so excludes one from travel to the US without a visa, and possibly at all

This has already been answered:


Agreed and I will firmly assign a significant chunk of the blame to the RMT, and I don't think I will have any sympathy for those who voted for it.

Whilst I accept that the strike vote is overwhelming for rail unions, its a shame that a corresponding vote is not held of the travelling public who I suspect would overwhelmingly reject the proposed strike.

 

[43066]

I, to the best of my abilities, try to help and advise signalling colleagues where I can - be it questions about leave, rosters or health, safety and welfare issues.

Like many others, I also advocate membership as an insurance policy. I've accompanied colleagues in disciplinary hearings or those that may be suffering health issues preventing them from doing their everyday role. Two differing examples of assisting colleagues.

This stuff is very much the day to day bread and butter of the railway unions.

 

[RPI]

Plus the rather large elephant in the room, the fact that any eventual pay rise will have already been spent by the staff striking over it. Bizarre politics indeed.

I'm inclined to agree.

I'm in the middle with this one, I genuinely think that the government want this to happen and its all playing into their hands.

It could probably have been avoided by an offer even of 2/3% being offered but I fear the RMT will now dig their heels in with massive unrealistic demands and ultimately everyone loses - except Bozo and his mates.

After everyone has had enough of striking/losing money more terms will be sold down the river for a few quid and it will be dressed up as a pay rise.

Excuse my cynicism but I've been on the railway a while, had several "harmonisation's" to which a few quid get offered but lose conditions.

I also accept that things do have to change and adapt as in every other industry and the unions need to start being clever on how this is achieved rather than just sabre rattling and I hate to say it, they need to lose this 1970's militant mentality if the public are to be taken on side which is vital.

This is the beginning of a massive shake up of both the unions and the rail industry, I'm afraid to say there are aspects of the industry that do need a huge wake up call, I don't think there is a single TOC that isn't hugely top heavy with middle management, the cost savings need to start there.

 

[matacaster]

Probably not . But there will be if it keeps on being no rises.

.... And what job might that be?

 

[bramling]

.... because the leader of that government got spooked by his right-wing MP’s into believing Farage was going to win all their seats in ‘Little England’ and agreed to the disaster that was a referendum in 2016. Everything that is wrong in the UK stems from that descision.

This can only come from two things though. Either Farage’s electoral prospects were being overplayed (in which case, why?), or there was a genuine risk. I’d more put it down to the fact Blair promised “In Europe but not run by Europe”, but seemed to deliver the precise opposite, and failed to recognise the fundamental point that Britain has always been reluctantly European. Failure of successive governments / oppositions to recognise this led us to 2015.

But I completely agree we’ve been in a mess ever since, not least with any domestic agenda being comprehensively sidelined for several years now. Unfortunately I think we have plenty more years to come of this, and looking at what fills the commons these days hardly inspires confidence for the future.

I don’t think anyone will “win” or “lose” this whole affair, it will simply turn out to be a mess.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

How can people work rest days if there is a continual work to rule in place?! Strike action will be odd days, WTR will likely be ongoing.

Many people will have already seen this coming, and already been working rest days.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But aren't public sector workers just expected accept bad pay rises forever, under the Tories? That would seem to be one of the major issues...

Labour governments are quite capable of enforcing pay freezes, and not just in the public sector.
It's what led to the "winter of discontent" and Margaret Thatcher.
It was called the "counter-inflation policy" in the late 1970s (Denis Healey was Chancellor).
Extra pay only for demonstrable productivity improvements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many people will have already seen this coming, and already been working rest days.

With such fast hikes to the price of fuel and electricity, I suspect people have been working rest days to maintain their standard of living rather than to save up - it is not an easy time to save and low interest rates discourage it anyway.

 

[43066]

its a shame that a corresponding vote is not held of the travelling public who I suspect would overwhelmingly reject the proposed strike.

But they aren’t union members, and the union doesn’t represent their interests. So this statement makes no sense whatsoever.

.... And what job might that be?

This is your real beef, we’re all overpaid in the first place aren’t we!? How dare the working class oiks on the railway have the temerity to stand up for themselves .

 

[matacaster]

Lots of people get above inflation increases and rail workers have had that in the past. But getting a good pay rise in the past doesn't stop them wanting more and more in the future.

I am quite certain that there are precious few people who wouldn't like a pay rise. However, what is described as RMT union strength might by other workers be considered in the light of the playground bully. Perhaps a better approach from both sides could achieve a reasonable result. ALDI workers do not have a rigid rulebook with dozens of different grades and arcane shift patterns which exclude Sundays. However, they are paid more than some of the mainstream supermarkets as they are flexible and muck in filling shelves when checkouts aren't busy. Perhaps combining some functions into one job description might yield benefits which the employer can see is real?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

For clarity, the view that it isn't practical at present for a large pay rise to be given to traincrew doesn't mean we look down on traincrew or think they are "lever monkeys". I think people in most industries are going to get very poor pay rises this year.

Fully agree with this.

 

[irish_rail]

.... because the leader of that government got spooked by his right-wing MP’s into believing Farage was going to win all their seats in ‘Little England’ and agreed to the disaster that was a referendum in 2016. Everything that is wrong in the UK stems from that descision.

Spot on. The rot set in the minute that referendum was called. Farage and co have a lot to answer for not least all the lies on the big red bus. Funnily enough we have all got accustomed to our politicians lying none stop these past few years....

 

[baz962]

.... And what job might that be?

Any on the railway. If they were to keep getting no rises and normal Monday to Friday workers catch up , then many might leave. Why would you work weekends or have annual leave dictated to you or find out if you are getting that ad hoc day you wanted , only three days before you want it. Or start at 4am etc if eventually you could get the same money for driving a lorry , bus or van say on Monday to Friday.

 

[A0]

Labour governments are quite capable of enforcing pay freezes, and not just in the public sector.
It's what led to the "winter of discontent" and Margaret Thatcher.
It was called the "counter-inflation policy" in the late 1970s (Denis Healey was Chancellor).
Extra pay only for demonstrable productivity improvements.

Not quite what happened.

In 1978 the government *tried* to enforce a pay freeze, or more accurately a limit on increases, even on the private sector. It failed because Ford's workers (mainly T&GWU) wanted more and voted for strike action, their justification was Ford had made sufficient profits to pay more. Ford's management faced with an interminable strike or upsetting the government opted for the latter, and thereafter the government's attempts at pay control in the private sector at least was dead and buried. This, of course, then infuriated the public sector unions which lead to what has become known as the 'Winter of Discontent' as one by one each of the public sector unions - so the likes of the GMB, COHSE, NUPE etc all went out on strike. And in those days secondary picketing was also permitted, so it had a much wider impact.

 

[Towers]

Many people will have already seen this coming, and already been working rest days.

And equally, many won't. Many will also have been doing the same overtime that they do all the time, because it gives a vital boost to their basic earnings which helps them pay the bills.

There is often an unfortunate attitude displayed at these times, where those who are comfortably able to lose pay completely fail to understand the position of those who cannot. One person might be financially comfortable - perhaps approaching middle age or thereabouts, kids grown up, mortgage looking healthy etc - however another will have costly bills, young children who need feeding, clothing and entertaining during the summer, and all manner of other expenses which can't be conveniently put on hold for months at a time. A healthy stash of savings to fall back on is increasingly a rare thing these days, too. These people simply do not have the arrogant luxury of sitting in the garden all summer preaching about the importance of solidarity. The RMT is about to cause a great deal of people a very difficult choice between financial hardship or potential fall-out in their workplace, I'm afraid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am quite certain that there are precious few people who wouldn't like a pay rise. However, what is described as RMT union strength might by other workers be considered in the light of the playground bully. Perhaps a better approach from both sides could achieve a reasonable result. ALDI workers do not have a rigid rulebook with dozens of different grades and arcane shift patterns which exclude Sundays. However, they are paid more than some of the mainstream supermarkets as they are flexible and muck in filling shelves when checkouts aren't busy. Perhaps combining some functions into one job description might yield benefits which the employer can see is real?

It's this rigidity on the railway that I often have difficulty with. I'm an IT consultant and generally my work involves designing and implementing fairly complex systems. But occasionally it's expedient for me to do a bit of data entry while preparing for a go-live. It's a bit of a waste of money to pay consultant rates for this, but equally when the need is very short-term it makes more sense than employing someone specifically to do that. To me it seems a bit like getting drivers or guards to pick up litter while they walk through the train to change ends - it's a bit boring but it needs doing. I've never really had an issue with it to be honest.

 

[johncrossley]

What makes you think those respecting the mandate can afford the strike either? It’s a matter of principle for many. It also isn’t about victimisation but, if your colleagues simply dislike you, they will be less inclined to help you out. That’s same in any workplace, surely?

Is there no Human Resources department that can deal with unpleasantness from fellow staff members?

 

[quantinghome]

The only recent government which seems to have successfully managed to quietly get on with the job was the 2010-15 coalition, and for whatever reason that government seems to be remembered with disfondness.

Can't agree with that I'm afraid. The decision to hold a referendum on the EU is of course cited by many as a huge mistake. However this was merely a symptom of the many problems with the coalition government:

- Complete lack of strategy, focussing instead on short term tactics to resolve issues, storing up bigger problems later.
- Austerity policies, originating as a political tactic to beat up the Labour party, then believing their own propaganda, then manifestly failing even on its own terms. Austerity prolonged the deficit rather than reduced it. The focus should have been on growth.
- Ministers allowed to indulge in their own ideological hobby horses, change for change's sake, making huge upheavals in Education, NHS, social security, which have had no obvious benefit and in many cases were later reversed at great expense.
- Pretty much every major policy botched in one way or another.
- Demonising people on benefits, immigrants etc.

The problems we see with the current government were all present during the coalition. They set the course for where we are now.

 

[jfowkes]

Is there no Human Resources department that can deal with unpleasantness from fellow staff members?

HR departments primary goal is to protect the company and its interests and will only help employees as long as that aligns with that primary goal.

 

[johncrossley]

It's this rigidity on the railway that I often have difficulty with. I'm an IT consultant and generally my work involves designing and implementing fairly complex systems. But occasionally it's expedient for me to do a bit of data entry while preparing for a go-live. It's a bit of a waste of money to pay consultant rates for this, but equally when the need is very short-term it makes more sense than employing someone specifically to do that. To me it seems a bit like getting drivers or guards to pick up litter while they walk through the train to change ends - it's a bit boring but it needs doing. I've never really had an issue with it to be honest.

I remember the first time I used ICE 1st class in Germany and I ordered a drink. I was so surprised when it was the person who had checked my ticket bringing me my drink. I immediately thought, this would not happen in the UK. This was about 20 years ago.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

HR departments primary goal is to protect the company and its interests and will only help employees as long as that aligns with that primary goal.

Are you saying that TOCs tolerate workplace bullying? Seems unlikely.

 

[baz962]

It's this rigidity on the railway that I often have difficulty with. I'm an IT consultant and generally my work involves designing and implementing fairly complex systems. But occasionally it's expedient for me to do a bit of data entry while preparing for a go-live. It's a bit of a waste of money to pay consultant rates for this, but equally when the need is very short-term it makes more sense than employing someone specifically to do that. To me it seems a bit like getting drivers or guards to pick up litter while they walk through the train to change ends - it's a bit boring but it needs doing. I've never really had an issue with it to be honest.

All well and good if you have time and if I as a driver was asked to pick up litter , I wouldn't massively have a problem. I would be worried about putting someone out of a job . To be honest though , some turnarounds are impossible. When I drove for the Overground , most turnarounds were between six and ten minutes. It took at least 7/8 minutes to go to the toilet and set up the train and then you have to trts two minutes before you depart.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I remember the first time I used ICE 1st class in Germany and I ordered a drink. I was so surprised when it was the person who had checked my ticket bringing me my drink. I immediately thought, this would not happen in the UK. This was about 20 years ago.

More likely that the first class steward checked tickets in first class as on occasions has happened in the UK rather than the guard selling drinks.

However, thinking back, regional lines were quite different - I once rode a Prignitzer Eisenbahnen railbus (one of the old Ferkeltaxen, basically very similar to the Stourbridge 139s but 1960s build), which was DOO and the driver came round checking/selling tickets before then sitting down to drive. On some RegionalExpress services the guard would sell coffee and chocolate bars. So there probably was a bit more flexibility there. There was a joke on uk.railway a while back about whether guards should be "Kit Kat sellers" - I think I did buy a Kit Kat from that Ferkeltaxi driver just out of principle

 

[jfowkes]

Are you saying that TOCs tolerate workplace bullying? Seems unlikely.

Depends on the company culture. If company A values a healthy working environment, it will instruct the HR department appropriately and give it the resources to deal with it. If company B decides that's costing too much time and money compared to just accepting employee burnout and turnover, the HR department will just as easily dismiss things and concentrate on the basics of pay, overtime, holidays etc.

Company A can very easily become Company B if there's a shift in management, a downturn in profits, etc...

 

[43066]

The decision to hold a referendum on the EU is of course cited by many as a huge mistake.

Only amongst those who didn’t like the way it went!

Are you saying that TOCs tolerate workplace bullying? Seems unlikely.

Nobody said workplace bullying
is tolerated - it absolutely isn’t. If people don’t like you they won’t go out of their way to make small talk with you and they probably won’t be inclined to help you out by doing things like swapping shifts, which they’re under absolutely no obligation to do. It’s entirely a matter of those individuals.

What does any of that have to do with the HR department?

I immediately thought, this would not happen in the UK. This was about 20 years ago.

You’d be wrong nowadays, certainly if you travelled in 1st on my TOC the same thing would happen.