Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[edwin_m]

Does it mean that if electric mode becomes unavailable at some point early in the day, it won't have enough fuel to finish its diagram on diesel?

 

[175001]

That said, being electric depots, how much refuelling infrastructure exists at Allerton and Springs Branch and how often do 769s reach Newton Heath, where there of course is.

There should be a 769 on Newton Heath every night, comes in empty from. Stockport via Denton and goes the reverse in the morning. This is the case until the May timetable change.

 

[Greybeard33]

Does it mean that if electric mode becomes unavailable at some point early in the day, it won't have enough fuel to finish its diagram on diesel?

The Alderley Edge diagrams are more than half under the wires. Also see this example upthread of a low fuel cancellation:

...hoped to ride 448. I was waiting for it at Parbold but it got cancelled.

It's back out today, it was just low on fuel yesterday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2022 ==

Automerged post:

Well the simple answer is that operators must 'cut their coat according to their cloth'. Diagrams must recognise the reality of the situation.

Or to put this another way, an operator cannot just drop 769s into existing DMU diagrams that are partly under the wires. It may be necessary to plan in additional ECS workings to/from a fuelling point. These incur additional mileage and driver hours and so increase operating costs.

 

[AM9]

Or to put this another way, an operator cannot just drop 769s into existing DMU diagrams that are partly under the wires. It may be necessary to plan in additional ECS workings to/from a fuelling point. These incur additional mileage and driver hours and so increase operating costs.

The actual increase will depend on how well it is planned so yes at least try it.

 

[Grumpy Git]

The damn things are a disaster. Next stop Sims please.

 

[507020]

Does it mean that if electric mode becomes unavailable at some point early in the day, it won't have enough fuel to finish its diagram on diesel?

This is how they’ve run out before but it doesn’t mean it will happen every time.

There should be a 769 on Newton Heath every night, comes in empty from. Stockport via Denton and goes the reverse in the morning. This is the case until the May timetable change.

So they have to switch power at Stockport and run that way. What will be the case after the timetable change?

The Alderley Edge diagrams are more than half under the wires. Also see this example upthread of a low fuel cancellation:

Southport - Alderley Edge diagrams are 53.6% under the wires, but 769s only run 47.75% of the distance in electric mode, running the 3 miles from Lostock Junction to Bolton on Diesel. They really should stop and do the changeover there.

Or to put this another way, an operator cannot just drop 769s into existing DMU diagrams that are partly under the wires. It may be necessary to plan in additional ECS workings to/from a fuelling point. These incur additional mileage and driver hours and so increase operating costs.

They are of course not DMUs and there are additional requirements specific to bi-mode operation. This increase in operating costs needs to be offset by savings in Diesel for them to be viable.

If they were to run Buxton or Rose Hill Marple services, they would likely have the same access to Newton Heath via Brewery Junction as now, but if they ran Southport - Manchester Airport, they may need to run round the Ordsall Chord. Presumably Diesels on the existing services already have their own ECS movements, if not stabled in the shed at Piccadilly.

 

[175001]

So they have to switch power at Stockport and run that way. What will be the case after the timetable change?

2W00 which currently starts at Alderley, will revert back to starting from Victoria from May. This was the case last year. It should be a 769... Should....

 

[Greybeard33]

2W00 which currently starts at Alderley, will revert back to starting from Victoria from May. This was the case last year. It should be a 769... Should....

...but has actually been a 2-car DMU every day this week....

 

[175001]

That's why I said "should"

 

[D9006]

Am surprised the 3 that started off this morning are still going strong, the warm weather not affecting them today, was thinking as day got warm there would be issues with the cooling system e

 

[AMD]

running the 3 miles from Lostock Junction to Bolton on Diesel. They really should stop and do the changeover there.

In the up direction the wires don't start until the junction itself, and stopping to do power changeover would incur a time penalty, when it's only 3 miles to Bolton.
As long as nobody suggests doing it in the other direction - the wire runoff does go a fiar distance towards Westhoughton, however with the number of trains cancelled at Bolton we would have had umpteen disruptive events as having to go wrong road back to Bolton wouldn't be ideal.

 

[Geeves]

There are still issues changing power modes, and issues at Lostock junction would soon bring half the NW to a halt seeing as near enough everything goes to Wigan these days

 

[Greybeard33]

Am surprised the 3 that started off this morning are still going strong, the warm weather not affecting them today, was thinking as day got warm there would be issues with the cooling system e

Eventually there were 4 units out on Friday 29th. 458 appeared mid morning, joining 442, 450 and 456. RTT attributed the preceding cancellations to traincrew issues.

On Saturday 30th 434, 442, 450 and 456 were out first thing. 442 was later replaced by 156460, but from RTT it is unclear why. It was caught up in the chaos caused by a signalling failure at Oxford Road.

It must be a long time since 769s worked all six of their booked diagrams on the same day.

 

[507020]

Eventually there were 4 units out on Friday 29th. 458 appeared mid morning, joining 442, 450 and 456. RTT attributed the preceding cancellations to traincrew issues.

On Saturday 30th 434, 442, 450 and 456 were out first thing. 442 was later replaced by 156460, but from RTT it is unclear why. It was caught up in the chaos caused by a signalling failure at Oxford Road.

It must be a long time since 769s worked all six of their booked diagrams on the same day.

156496 also appeared at Southport, an unusual ex-ScotRail example with the new ironing boards instead of the usual Chapman seats, not usually found on the west side. It then went ECS to Allerton depot, which presumably means it was on a booked 769 diagram.

 

[jfollows]

On Saturday 30th 434, 442, 450 and 456 were out first thing. 442 was later replaced by 156460, but from RTT it is unclear why. It was caught up in the chaos caused by a signalling failure at Oxford Road.

The chaos was a mess, complete lack of announcements at Oxford Road, 6-car ECS in platform 4 "not for public use" which blocked platform 3, another train in platform 2, in the end I walked over to P3 so that I could see the Alderley Edge train in Deansgate (769434 on the 12:16 from Southport) which started moving in our direction so I worked out it was going to use platform 1, still no announcements, but I had time to walk over the bridge (again) and get on it there. I think the ECS eventually went to Stockport but at least the train I wanted managed to circumvent the signalling problem by using platform 1, it actually lost almost no time having been 21 minutes late at Bolton and was 23 minutes late into Wilmslow.

 

[AM9]

The chaos was a mess, complete lack of announcements at Oxford Road, 6-car ECS in platform 4 "not for public use" which blocked platform 3, another train in platform 2, in the end I walked over to P3 so that I could see the Alderley Edge train in Deansgate (769434 on the 12:16 from Southport) which started moving in our direction so I worked out it was going to use platform 1, still no announcements, but I had time to walk over the bridge (again) and get on it there. I think the ECS eventually went to Stockport but at least the train I wanted managed to circumvent the signalling problem by using platform 1, it actually lost almost no time having been 21 minutes late at Bolton and was 23 minutes late into Wilmslow.

So, that wasn't anything to do with a 769 failing?

 

[jfollows]

So, that wasn't anything to do with a 769 failing?

No, indeed, nothing at all to do with a 769.
Which is unusual in itself currently.

 

[175001]

So, that wasn't anything to do with a 769 failing?

No, track circuit fault on the corridor

 

[mcnw35282]

Was fun trying to get a train from St Helens Junction yesterday...10:54 and 11:54 cancelled. 12:53 so full only about 3 passengers were able to board. 13:55, 14:53 and 15:53 also cancelled. Luckily, Central is not that far!

 

[Greybeard33]

So, that wasn't anything to do with a 769 failing?

No, track circuit fault on the corridor

To try to clarify the chaos a little:

RTT indicates 769434 worked the 0716 Southport to Alderley Edge. It arrived in Oxford Road P4 at 0832, 4L. The remainder of this service was then cancelled "due to a problem with the traction equipment". Subsequent eastbound services through the station used P3 instead of P4 and suffered long delays. P4 was not reoccupied until 1124. It is unclear when 434 vacated the platform.

RTT indicates 769442 departed Alderley Edge RT working the 0850 to Southport. It was delayed approaching Piccadilly and eventually arrived in Oxford Road P1 at 0952, 32L. The remainder of this service to Southport was cancelled "due to late arrival of crew from an inbound service" (there is normally a crew change at Oxford Road).

RTT then shows a service (unit(s) unidentified) departing Oxford Road P1 at 1053 and arriving Southport at 1229. This train, or part of it, then formed the delayed 1216 to Alderley Edge, departing 19L. RTT identifies the unit as 769442, but @jfollows, who boarded this service at Oxford Road, reported above that the unit was 434. RTT indicates that 442 remained on this diagram (which is the one initially worked by 434) for the rest of the day, although unit numbers can get confused in the system after severe disruption.

The 1116 from Southport, which forms part of the diagram initially worked by 442, was cancelled between Southport and Wigan Wallgate "due to late arrival of an inbound service", but RTT indicates that 156460 worked the remainder of the leg from Wallgate to Alderley Edge, then remained on this diagram for the rest of the day. RTT does not show any ECS working to get 156460 to Wigan; possibly it had been stabled in the Wallgate carriage sidings.

It seems possible/likely that the attribution of the first cancellation to "traction equipment" was an incorrect entry and that 769434 was in fact trapped in Oxford Road P4 by the signalling failure.

It also seems possible that the 1053 working from Oxford Road P1 to Southport consisted of both 434 and 442, with 434 having shunted across from P4 and coupled to the rear of 442. 442 was then uncoupled and left at Southport, while 434 resumed the remainder of its diagram. This would account for RTT mis-identifying 434 as 442.

I could be wrong though....

 

[jfollows]

Thanks, a word of warning, I was on 2K87 12:16 Southport-Alderley Edge from Oxford Road but I didn't correlate the unit number with RTT (IE I didn't look at the actual number on the train I was on), the latter had 769434 yesterday (see attached PDF) but it now shows on RTT as 769442, so it's been changed for some reason. So my statement that I was on 769434 yesterday only came from RTT at the time ..... so the more recent update could well be correct and it was in fact 769442.

Sorry for any confusion and that's taught me not necessarily to believe everything I see in RTT.

 

[Greybeard33]

Thanks, a word of warning, I was on 2K87 12:16 Southport-Alderley Edge from Oxford Road but I didn't correlate the unit number with RTT (IE I didn't look at the actual number on the train I was on), the latter had 769434 yesterday (see attached PDF) but it now shows on RTT as 769442, so it's been changed for some reason. So my statement that I was on 769434 yesterday only came from RTT at the time ..... so the more recent update could well be correct and it was in fact 769442.

Ah, thanks - I had assumed you had eyeballed the number.

In which case a less convoluted explanation of events is that the 1053 Oxford Road to Southport was worked by 769442 solo, which had remained in P1 since 0952. It then took over the remainder of 434's diagram as now shown in RTT.

Edit: This being so, it seems possible that the track circuit fault only affected Oxford Road P3 and so did not become critical until 769434 sat down in P4.

Even if the 769 did fail, it occurred under the wires and so likely involved the original 319 equipment rather than the new systems.

 

[jfollows]

Ah, thanks - I had assumed you had eyeballed the number.

In which case a less convoluted explanation of events is that the 1053 Oxford Road to Southport was worked by 769442 solo, which had remained in P1 since 0952. It then took over the remainder of 434's diagram as now shown in RTT.

Yes, thank you, that makes sense.

 

[PlatformEdgeVT]

2W00 which currently starts at Alderley, will revert back to starting from Victoria from May. This was the case last year. It should be a 769... Should....

Last time I went it was a 156, though most times I've had a 769

 

[507020]

Edit: This being so, it seems possible that the track circuit fault only affected Oxford Road P3 and so did not become critical until 769434 sat down in P4.

Even if the 769 did fail, it occurred under the wires and so likely involved the original 319 equipment rather than the new systems.

And in the event a 769 has issues in electric mode, they actually have the advantage over 319s and other EMUs of being able to use the Diesel as a backup, but that appears not to have happened in this case.

 

[Llama]

769 movements are now to run in diesel mode throughout and must not be used in AC mode until further notice apparently.

 

[507020]

769 movements are now to run in diesel mode throughout and must not be used in AC mode until further notice apparently.

Source?

 

[Geeves]

More investigations on power change overs according to one of the notices other than the big on the desk of the signing on point saying no more electric please

 

[td97]

A signalling interference issue at Manchester Oxford Road occurred recently, which was resolved by the 769 in the station dropping its pan and continuing onwards using diesel mode.

 

[175001]

Source?

A massive notice on the booking on desk at our signing on point.