Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Greybeard33]

I think I’m going to disagree. There are certain fleets, with life left in them, where diesel battery hybridisation can be done relatively easily and will have good benefit. Chiltern springs to mind, some of Northern, and arguably Cross Country.

And it should be remembered that the 769 is not particularly "green". It does not have regenerative braking, even in AC mode, and the 1980s DC traction motors and traction package are not very efficient by modern standards. The diesel engines run continuously in diesel mode, causing pollution in stations, unlike a diesel battery hybrid.

On a route that is only 20% under the wires, a 769 might well burn more fuel and emit more CO2 than a hybrid 195, despite the latter not taking advantage of the OLE.

 

[AM9]

And it should be remembered that the 769 is not particularly "green". It does not have regenerative braking, even in AC mode, and the 1980s DC traction motors and traction package are not very efficient by modern standards. The diesel engines run continuously in diesel mode, causing pollution in stations, unlike a diesel battery hybrid.

On a route that is only 20% under the wires, a 769 might well burn more fuel and emit more CO2 than a hybrid 195, despite the latter not taking advantage of the OLE.

Nevertheless there aren't any battery hybrid 195 anywhere at all, let alone for a secondary service like that to Southport. The 769s are still far more green than a pair of 150s deployed in the place of the &^(s.

 

[Greybeard33]

Nevertheless there aren't any battery hybrid 195 anywhere at all, let alone for a secondary service like that to Southport. The 769s are still far more green than a pair of 150s deployed in the place of the &^(s.

Not yet. But see

Potential Order for 20 hybrid 195s for Northern - Speculative discussion

Split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/195s-truly-awful-not-a-step-forward.223797/ Commercial notice out for a potential order of an additional 20 195s, which could be delivered in bimode form...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[The Ham]

But even with electrification progressing at it's current snail's pace, there will be fewer and fewer trains running services that don't spend a considerable amount of their journeys under wires. So a battery-diesel hybrid (probably battery-diesel-electric), multiple unit fleet would be quite a niche requirement. The additional weight, complexity and (ultimately through-life cost) of providing for full electric running under wires or over 3rd rail would make the proposed micro-fleet(s) look not particularly cost effective and more of a green gesture designed to stave off demands for electrification extensions.

Whilst such trains (i.e. DMU with batteries added) will become more and more niche, assuming that the batteries last for (say) up to 10 years that's probably about the story of timeframe before things will happen to allow them to be removed from service.

Even then it could be that the battery rafts could be used for other purposes.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I didn't realise the 769s were proper bi-modes like the 755s.

They are actually dual voltage EMUs where Porterbrook have contracted Wabtec to fit a MAN engine raft under the driving trailer cars. The diesel alternator sets were designed to supply the equivalent of 750V DC to the bus. It is not quite as simple as that though.

 

[childwallblues]

I needed to ride five 769s so yesterday I was out and managed io get three of them 424 450 and 456. Also rode 434 and hoped to ride 448. I was waiting for it at Parbold but it got cancelled.

 

[AMD]

I was waiting for it at Parbold but it got cancelled.

It's back out today, it was just low on fuel yesterday.

 

[brad465]

Apologies if this has been shared before, but this picture has been doing the rounds on Facebook and as I believe it's of a 769 car, thought I'd share it here:

Wine Time

www.facebook.com

 

[LOL The Irony]

Apologies if this has been shared before, but this picture has been doing the rounds on Facebook and as I believe it's of a 769 car, thought I'd share it here:

Wine Time

www.facebook.com

View attachment 109064

This picture is from the early days.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Picture is of 769426 which I believe is still at Cardiff?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Picture is of 769426 which I believe is still at Cardiff?

Seems some doubt about where the unit actually is. AIUI the unit was deliveredto Canton with a different end car because it 's own was damaged. I then believe 769426 was taken back to Wabtec. That car looks like a 769 painted into base Northern livery, so would that have been the car used to deliver 769426 to Canton initially ?

I have no idea

 

[Dspatula]

Apparently someone managed to take a pantograph off a 769on Milies Platting bank yesterday, so that'll be one less for a while. 769434 by the looks of it. No photographic evidence so I can only go off what I've been told.

 

[Geeves]

Oh yes it's definitely broken. Probably the first time the pantograph head went for a ride inside the train after being retrieved from the line side!

---

 

[507020]

Apparently someone managed to take a pantograph off a 769on Milies Platting bank yesterday, so that'll be one less for a while. 769434 by the looks of it. No photographic evidence so I can only go off what I've been told.

Would that someone have been the driver by any chance? Surely no one else could have taken it off when it shouldn’t have been raised east of Victoria.

Oh yes it's definitely broken. Probably the first time the pantograph head went for a ride inside the train after being retrieved from the line side!

What has happened to it? Did it run off the end of the wires or has it hit something?

 

[Greybeard33]

Would that someone have been the driver by any chance? Surely no one else could have taken it off when it shouldn’t have been raised east of Victoria.

What has happened to it? Did it run off the end of the wires or has it hit something?

Presumably the incident occurred on the 1131 Southport to Stalybridge:

Realtime Trains | 2W52 1131 Southport to Stalybridge | 03/02/2022

Real-time train running information for 2W52 1131 departure from Southport to Stalybridge on 03/02/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It lost 6 minutes between Moses Gate and Farnworth, so maybe that was where the pantograph was initially damaged and 769434 reverted to diesel for the remainder of the working?

The return working from Stalybridge was terminated short at Victoria and 150133 later took over the remainder of the diagram.

 

[175001]

No the pan was definitely damaged on the Down Slow out of Victoria

 

[scrapy]

Presumably the incident occurred on the 1131 Southport to Stalybridge

No, the time lost at Farnworth was due to a failure to call at Moses Gate.

 

[david l]

It would appear that 769434 arrived at Man Vic on ac (as booked), then left Man Vic towards Stalybridge in diesel mode (as booked) but the pan did not drop on the power changeover at Man Vic, ran out of wire on Miles Platting bank and hit Rochdale Road bridge. Train continued to Stalybridge (terminated) and returned to Man Vic in diesel mode, as booked. When switchover back to ac took place at Man Vic, there was no pan there to raise.
AFAIK when you change over from ac to diesel, the one button in the cab drops the pan and starts the diesels.

 

[507020]

No, the time lost at Farnworth was due to a failure to call at Moses Gate.

How did this happen?

It would appear that 769434 arrived at Man Vic on ac (as booked), then left Man Vic towards Stalybridge in diesel mode (as booked) but the pan did not drop on the power changeover at Man Vic, ran out of wire on Miles Platting bank and hit Rochdale Road bridge. Train continued to Stalybridge (terminated) and returned to Man Vic in diesel mode, as booked. When switchover back to ac took place at Man Vic, there was no pan there to raise.
AFAIK when you change over from ac to diesel, the one button in the cab drops the pan and starts the diesels.

I had a suspicion this was more likely than a driver error. That is correct there is only a single button for “Pan down engine start” and “Pan up engine stop” but was the damage not noticed until after the train had returned to Manchester Victoria and not during the long layover at Stalybridge? Did the driver attempt to raise the pantograph at Victoria only to find that the engine stopped and there was no traction, get out to check and find that the pantograph had gone? Could the train not have continued to Southport on Diesel mode in that circumstance? Did it strike one of the gantries after the end of the wires?

 

[Trackman]

AFAIK when you change over from ac to diesel, the one button in the cab drops the pan and starts the diesels.

That is correct there is only a single button for “Pan down engine start” and “Pan up engine stop”

I've only seen and been on one 769 many months ago.
I alighted at Bolton and watched the changeover.
The pan went up but the diesel engines were still running.
Right away- but as soon as the driver took power the diesel engines cut out- is this normal?

 

[507020]

I've only seen and been on one 769 many months ago.
I alighted at Bolton and watched the changeover.
The pan went up but the diesel engines were still running.
Right away- but as soon as the driver took power the diesel engines cut out- is this normal?

Normally the Diesel cuts out before the train has left Bolton but sometimes when the dwell has been shorter I’ve seen the engines take longer to shut down.

 

[edwin_m]

How did this happen?

I had a suspicion this was more likely than a driver error. That is correct there is only a single button for “Pan down engine start” and “Pan up engine stop” but was the damage not noticed until after the train had returned to Manchester Victoria and not during the long layover at Stalybridge? Did the driver attempt to raise the pantograph at Victoria only to find that the engine stopped and there was no traction, get out to check and find that the pantograph had gone? Could the train not have continued to Southport on Diesel mode in that circumstance? Did it strike one of the gantries after the end of the wires?

Would the line light remain lit if the train was in diesel mode?. If not, the driver would have no way of knowing the pan was still up, and if so they may not have been trained to check it, as the usual failure mode of a pan is to drop unexpectedly not to stay up. Either way, the driver would have no reason to suspect that the pan had been damaged until they tried to raise it again at Victoria. When lowered it probably wouldn't be visible from platform level so a check at Stalybridge wouldn't show anything out of the ordinary. Once it was discovered to be missing, it would be the right course of action to fail the train because the damage might have made it unsafe to continue.

 

[Trackman]

Normally the Diesel cuts out before the train has left Bolton but sometimes when the dwell has been shorter I’ve seen the engines take longer to shut down.

Could have been a coincidence, as I say I've only seen it once.

 

[sportzbar]

I've only seen and been on one 769 many months ago.
I alighted at Bolton and watched the changeover.
The pan went up but the diesel engines were still running.
Right away- but as soon as the driver took power the diesel engines cut out- is this normal?

When switching between modes the diesel generators disengage with the power now being provided by the over heads. What then happens is the generators slowly wind down and can take several minutes depending on the temperature. It's more efficient from a maintenance point of view rather than just shutting off straight away.

 

[Roast Veg]

There are certain fleets, with life left in them, where diesel battery hybridisation can be done relatively easily and will have good benefit. Chiltern springs to mind, some of Northern, and arguably Cross Country.

I hope the XC argument is poor, because any life extension of the Voyagers would be most unwelcome.

 

[Greybeard33]

It would appear that 769434 arrived at Man Vic on ac (as booked), then left Man Vic towards Stalybridge in diesel mode (as booked) but the pan did not drop on the power changeover at Man Vic, ran out of wire on Miles Platting bank and hit Rochdale Road bridge. Train continued to Stalybridge (terminated) and returned to Man Vic in diesel mode, as booked. When switchover back to ac took place at Man Vic, there was no pan there to raise.
AFAIK when you change over from ac to diesel, the one button in the cab drops the pan and starts the diesels.

I believe the pan should have dropped automatically once it reached full extension, after running off the end of the wire. But perhaps there was insufficient time for this to occur before it hit the Rochdale Road bridge? The bridge is only about 150m beyond the end of the wiring at Bromley Street. About 8s at 40mph.

 

[AM9]

I believe the pan should have dropped automatically once it reached full extension, after running off the end of the wire. But perhaps there was insufficient time for this to occur before it hit the Rochdale Road bridge? The bridge is only about 150m beyond the end of the wiring at Bromley Street. About 8s at 40mph.

It's also a fundamental part of the original 319 design so hardly a failing of the 769'ness of the train. On a few occasions that I remember, the 319s* would come a cropper when transitioning from ac to DC where the driver hadn't dropped the pantograph before the wiring overrun ran out.
* there was a recent case of a 700 clouting the structure over the ramp up to Blackfriars a few month ago.

 

[Llama]

It would appear that 769434 arrived at Man Vic on ac (as booked), then left Man Vic towards Stalybridge in diesel mode (as booked) but the pan did not drop on the power changeover at Man Vic, ran out of wire on Miles Platting bank and hit Rochdale Road bridge. Train continued to Stalybridge (terminated) and returned to Man Vic in diesel mode, as booked. When switchover back to ac took place at Man Vic, there was no pan there to raise.
AFAIK when you change over from ac to diesel, the one button in the cab drops the pan and starts the diesels.

Not saying 100% that you are wrong there but that doesn't appear to be what happened from the info we have so far.

Yes it's one button to press (after putting the master switch to neutral) on 769s to drop the pan and start the diesel engines. There is indeed a line light on the desk which should also be lit when the unit is in diesel mode with at least one engine running properly (just as 319s do when on DC mode).

When changing from diesel to AC mode the engines can take a while to run down, it's normal to have set off from Bolton in the up direction before they've stopped.
When changing to diesel mode it's apparent that from the engines actually starting to traction power being demanded to can be as little as 10 seconds, I'm no mechanical engineer but I wouldn't expect that is good for reliability.

 

[175001]

How did this happen?

Failure to calls happen regularly. Can be a range of things but usually it's loss of concentration.

 

[edwin_m]

Not saying 100% that you are wrong there but that doesn't appear to be what happened from the info we have so far.

Yes it's one button to press (after putting the master switch to neutral) on 769s to drop the pan and start the diesel engines. There is indeed a line light on the desk which should also be lit when the unit is in diesel mode with at least one engine running properly (just as 319s do when on DC mode).

When changing from diesel to AC mode the engines can take a while to run down, it's normal to have set off from Bolton in the up direction before they've stopped.
When changing to diesel mode it's apparent that from the engines actually starting to traction power being demanded to can be as little as 10 seconds, I'm no mechanical engineer but I wouldn't expect that is good for reliability.

So if the same light signifies the diesel is running and that AC power is present, the driver has no indication that the pan has dropped when switching to diesel, other than to get out and have a look. Maybe it would go out for a few seconds in between dropping the pan and the diesel starting up, but that would be easy to miss.