Platform detection sensors wouldn't be too difficult, have a distance sensor a bit bellow platform height, if its very close its at a platform, if its far away then its the wrong side.
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Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates
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It’s simply more likely when a driver has a pair of “Door open left” and “door open right” buttons right next to each other for them to press the wrong one than it is for a guard who has to step onto the platform at the local door on the correct side before releasing the other doors on that side, because the guard does not want to fall onto the third rail.
I also don’t buy into the claim that DOO is faster. Dwell times on Merseyrail services are very short.
43096
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Fit Correct Side Door Enable kit then. It’s really not difficult.
They sort of already do it with the existing sensors that are used by the sliding steps. Individual doors won’t release if their step can’t measure a distance to the platform.
They do have ADSO kit fitted. It would just be a case of putting beacons at every platform to enable “real” CSDE.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It objectively takes longer (about 5 seconds*) to do this:
1. Open local door
2. Get out and look if platformed
3. Get back in and press release
than this:
1. Look in DOO cameras to see if platformed
2. Press release
It also takes longer on dispatch, because closing the local door and "ding ding, ding ding" takes somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds.
On a Southport that's a minimum of 220 seconds or about 3 and a half minutes. It makes a difference.
Remember that they had to add two minutes to the Ormskirk-Liverpool running time simply because of the fitment of hustle alarms which make closing up take an extra few seconds over before they were fitted.
I'm not well up on the technology, but as a frequent Merseyrail passenger there often seems to be a long wait for the guard to (reach and) open the doors. Surely there can be a simple fix to enable the driver to do that without risk: that should save a lot of time. I agree that the guard should be the one to check and close the doors though.
DanNCL
Established Member
At this rate the Tyne & Wear Metro Stadler units, which were ordered several years after and are based on the Merseyrail units to a large extent, could enter service first.
DJH1971
Established Member
At the rate they are going the 777's will end up needing to be refurbished before they even enter service. The 507/508's cannot go on forever.
They aren’t based on them at all. They look similar in the renders due to a similar colour scheme and light pattern, but it’s an entirely different package, bodyshell and spec.
I also doubt they’ll have one in service before the first 777 is, but they’ll also not have had the full brunt of a pandemic to deal with so should be in service relatively quickly once delivery starts at pace.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They are both Stadler METRO units, but the Merseyrail units have a body which has much more in common with the regular FLIRT, hence many people (including me) calling them that at times.
DanNCL
Established Member
The Tyne & Wear units are a modified version of the basic Stadler Metro product. The basic Stadler Metro product is quite literally the 777 for Merseyrail.
D821
Member
Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but what exactly are the guards checking for before they open the doors? They haven't always worked on that manner, have they?
Ensure the whole train is on the platform/stopped in the correct position.
To see if the train is fully on the platform, merseyrail trains run in various formations so this is a vital element of the safe running of the services.
And of course the 777s will run in new formations, some of which have even greater difficulty fitting into platforms, which will only make this even more vital.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
If the guard doesn't have to get out and do a check before releasing doors then its entirely possible to get comparable dwell times to DOO.
Not various, only two.
But as I said, this will double immediately upon the 777s entering service.
Add to that hazard perception, and any issues with the PTI that may cause problems for alighting passengers on the train and those already on the platform
Of course. Ensure the train is fully accommodated in the platform in the correct position. Ensure it is safe to release the doors. We were told for example if there is a fight on the platform or something, not to release the doors. In theory the driver would see the fight while pulling in and signal 2-2 (do not release doors). In theory they should signal the same if they have overran the platform - but again the guard should check before releasing the doors.
A few weeks ago we were held outside a station and the driver called saying the signaller had held us due to an intoxicated passenger trying to board a previous train at the next station, so not to release the doors until I am certain he isn't trying to board. Police had him detained when I checked so I then released the doors.
The guard should also know who requires assistance - for example if you see somebody struggling with a pram, case or somebody with poor mobility struggling with the gap, it is best to assist them to avoid a slip, trip, fall down the gap etc. If the guard is keeping an eye on the train internally throughout the journey its easy enough to identify those who might need extra help alighting through ticket checks etc and to position yourself in a suitable position for their station to assist them.
Where I work we don't have dwell time targets as such, we are told to take as much time as we need to ensure the safety of PTI and not to rush. It takes as long as it takes to perform the PTI safety checks, let everybody board and alight, and to assist those who need assistance.
Obviously its quite difficult to judge how long is long enough, but rushing through the process to meet a target surely increases the chances of an incident such as overcarrying a passenger, or trapping somebody in the doors.
do they plan to run 777s along with the old trains on the same lines? I thought the idea was to run all services on one branch with the new trains from the outset. Admittedly that will mean a few stations (eg Kirkdale to Central) having to cope with both types.
I believe the plan is to convert whole lines at once, starting with Ormskirk and Kirkby, then the Wirral lines and finally Southport, so anywhere more than line shares tracks will have to deal with both types in service. Southport may see 4 car 777s run in between 6 car 507s at one point.
The 4-car 777 sets are almost identical in length (within 1 metre?) to the 3-car 507/508s, aren't they? Aside from accounting for different door placements, there aren't any wild differences I could see.
Vespa
Established Member
It was enough of a difference to require platform lengthening by digging out toward the concourse in Southport.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It only affects termini - the door positions are as they are deliberately so they fit 6 car platforms with the back cab hanging off if necessary.
D821
Member
The Liverpool Echo has an article this morning where they have asked when the trains will be in service. The LCRA are saying "phased in from autumn this year."
And as pointed out in the comments, this is likely to be cow excrement as the unions/guards/drivers/everyone is yet to agree exactly how the trains will be operated.
A 3 car 507/508 is 60m but a 4 car 777 is (as it says at the cab end) 65m. Therefore an 8 car 777 is 10m longer than a 6 car 507/508 which is a significant enough difference to require some variation of platform lengthening at most stations.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, it's not. It's only an issue at terminal platforms due to not being able to hang off past the signal. At through stations, the door positioning handles it.
So why have platforms at stations including Freshfield and Birkenhead Park been lengthened slightly? The extensions aren’t vast but they are needed.
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