Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[D821]

It'll be 'interesting' to see what state the 507s and 508s will be after another year or so of use. Most have spots where the paint has bubbled on them and its left a hole in the plastic wrap.

 

[507020]

It'll be 'interesting' to see what state the 507s and 508s will be after another year or so of use. Most have spots where the paint has bubbled on them and its left a hole in the plastic wrap.

They aren’t painted underneath they were taken back to bare aluminium and the surface prepared for the vinyl application, but it’s currently showing that it wasn’t designed to last another 10 years.

 

[Pacef8]

Vinyl of any grade be it 3m or similar is only 3-5 years life span . Including the anti graffiti laminate.

 

[507020]

Vinyl of any grade be it 3m or similar is only 3-5 years life span . Including the anti graffiti laminate.

Well that was already up pre-covid…

 

[py_megapixel]

Don't worry, the RMT members voted against the operating proposal, so you'll get to enjoy the warmth of the 50x units for a while at least.

What's their problem now? They've got door control panels, isn't that what they wanted?

Can we stick a panto on the 777 and send them down to Birmingham? If the Scousers like their 40 year old trains so much they can keep them for another 40.

Not sure they need to go as far as Birmingham... if we get some wires up elsewhere in the North then they'll come in quite handy!

 

[507020]

What's their problem now? They've got door control panels, isn't that what they wanted?

Their problem might have been with the pay free freeze in the 3rd and 5th years and nothing to do with the operating procedure.

 

[py_megapixel]

Their problem might have been with the pay free freeze in the 3rd and 5th years and nothing to do with the operating procedure.

That's a reasonable point. But if the issue was with pay, would staff not be threatening actual strikes, rather than just refusing to work the new stock (which presumably represents an improvement in their working environment)?

 

[507020]

That's a reasonable point. But if the issue was with pay, would staff not be threatening actual strikes, rather than just refusing to work the new stock (which presumably represents an improvement in their working environment)?

If they just don’t accept the deal then they won’t get a 2 year pay freeze. Is the passenger saloon where they might get punched etc by fare evaders considered a better working environment than the privacy of the rear cab?

 

[adc82140]

The passengers have to sit in the passenger saloon. If it's too dangerous for the staff, then surely it's too dangerous for the customers, and the whole lot should be shut down [/hyperbole]. In seriousness though, isn't part of the role of the guard customer service and customer reassurance? This does nothing to dispel the myth that all guards do is sit in the back cab opening and closing doors.

 

[Bertie the bus]

You really can’t blame the guards for rejecting it. If the new units enter traffic they have to do more for less money – less in real terms taking the pay freezes into account. If the new units don’t enter service they can carry on as they are indefinitely. That is why it is so difficult to see an end to this. MerseyTravel have red lines which they are apparently not prepared to cross, the RMT have red lines which we all know they definitely won’t cross, and when the two come to some sort of, admittedly poor for every side, agreement the guards won’t agree to it. And even if they do eventually come to some agreement with the RMT and the guards there are still the drivers.

 

[MattRat]

You really can’t blame the guards for rejecting it. If the new units enter traffic they have to do more for less money – less in real terms taking the pay freezes into account. If the new units don’t enter service they can carry on as they are indefinitely. That is why it is so difficult to see an end to this. MerseyTravel have red lines which they are apparently not prepared to cross, the RMT have red lines which we all know they definitely won’t cross, and when the two come to some sort of, admittedly poor for every side, agreement the guards won’t agree to it. And even if they do eventually come to some agreement with the RMT and the guards there are still the drivers.

And they have to pay for two sets of trains....

Guess they're going bankrupt (or maybe the trains break first).....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Their problem might have been with the pay free freeze in the 3rd and 5th years and nothing to do with the operating procedure.

I don't entirely understand why they put something as emotive as a pay freeze in there when they could instead have offered a lower percentage per year for the same overall outcome. It's like they wanted it to fail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2022 ==

You really can’t blame the guards for rejecting it. If the new units enter traffic they have to do more for less money – less in real terms taking the pay freezes into account. If the new units don’t enter service they can carry on as they are indefinitely. That is why it is so difficult to see an end to this. MerseyTravel have red lines which they are apparently not prepared to cross, the RMT have red lines which we all know they definitely won’t cross, and when the two come to some sort of, admittedly poor for every side, agreement the guards won’t agree to it. And even if they do eventually come to some agreement with the RMT and the guards there are still the drivers.

I think a lot of it comes down to what the drivers will or won't do. If they could be bought into agreeing DOO, you can just impose it, Southern-style - i.e. you accept that or we do away with the grade entirely. There would be a period of disruption, but on the background of less commuting...

I'll admit I do foresee a "dockers" style outcome here if something doesn't give. Though I just don't get why they don't just fit guards' panels and use driver release, guard close. If the guards are going to be there, I really can't see an issue with it, and if they don't agree that then I think they could easily justify imposing it.

 

[Vespa]

RMT would have to be careful for what they wish for, if the 507/8 stops working eventually there won't be any jobs for drivers or guards, not sure how long the franchise has left to run, it's not the first time franchises have been handed back when its no longer cost effective.

 

[507020]

RMT would have to be careful for what they wish for, if the 507/8 stops working eventually there won't be any jobs for drivers or guards, not sure how long the franchise has left to run, it's not the first time franchises have been handed back when its no longer cost effective.

The 25 year concession ends in 2028.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You really can’t blame the guards for rejecting it. If the new units enter traffic they have to do more for less money – less in real terms taking the pay freezes into account. If the new units don’t enter service they can carry on as they are indefinitely. That is why it is so difficult to see an end to this. MerseyTravel have red lines which they are apparently not prepared to cross, the RMT have red lines which we all know they definitely won’t cross, and when the two come to some sort of, admittedly poor for every side, agreement the guards won’t agree to it. And even if they do eventually come to some agreement with the RMT and the guards there are still the drivers.

I just love it a Labour controlled administration prepared to support and expand public transport and RMT don't want to play along. Time for appeasement has passed time to go to defcon 3 and implement DOO. Use the savings from the guards to buy off the drivers and bring in a private security company to provide on board presence and support revenue protection teams.

 

[the sniper]

Use the savings from the guards to buy off the drivers

That won't work under the circumstances you prescribe. Well, not well...

 

[Ribbleman]

777049, the first of the batch to be delivered with large batteries, was undertaking test runs this evening between Sandhills and Ormskirk. I don’t know if it was running off the batteries or the third rail, but suspect the former as previous mileage accumulation trips have been to Southport. Ormskirk is a shorter run and passes Kirkdale Depot, which would be easier to reach in the event of problems.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That won't work under the circumstances you prescribe. Well, not well...

Indeed it is extreme but how is this to ever move forward. Ultimately this has been very poorly handled by MerseyRail and LCA and they are reaping the consequences but concessions have already been made at considerable extra cost let alone the long run additional operating costs of not going DOO.

Whats for sure is the 507/508 will the last camshaft operated DC rolling stock on the UK main line network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That won't work under the circumstances you prescribe. Well, not well...

If the drivers agreed DOO there would be a significant period of very sparse or no service because you'd need to train them all up before you could reinstate the service. That's the difficulty, though I can see the attraction of the "nuclear button" if something sensible isn't agreed. On the other hand I think putting "no increase" years in the deal was just silly; you could have done it without those but costing the same. I guess the idea was so the percentages looked bigger, but it seems to have done the exact opposite.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2022 ==

Indeed it is extreme but how is this to ever move forward. Ultimately this has been very poorly handled by MerseyRail and LCA and they are reaping the consequences but concessions have already been made at considerable extra cost let alone the long run additional operating costs of not going DOO.

It probably wouldn't be hard to recoup most or all of that by destaffing the stations. If they moved away from their obsession with traditional paper ticketing and implemented TVMs, contactless and e-tickets (or even m-tickets, much as I hate them) they could easily destaff pretty much all - if not actually all* - stations. In ticketing terms there's no real reason it has to differ all that much from London Underground, it's very similar to the Metropolitan Line in concept.

Furthermore, station staff strikes would have pretty much no effect on the operation - indeed, if they played it right ("the ticket offices are closed so it's free today") passengers would be on side, too.

* You can't have no staff at underground stations, but you don't need the booking office if you have others e.g. gateline staff.

Whats for sure is the 507/508 will the last camshaft operated DC rolling stock on the UK main line network.

Will they outlast the SN 313s? They seem to be the ultimate survivors.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Will they outlast the SN 313s? They seem to be the ultimate survivors.

The smart money says they will be gone by end of year when Southern get back some more of their 377/5s once SE get the balance of the 707's.

The ultimate survivors will be Bakerloo line stock though.

 

[Sam 76]

I think there's a couple like that now. Very noticeable coming out of Moorfields to Sandhills on a busy home-time train. You can feel the suspension bottoming out quite harshly!

Yep that’s normally where it’s most noticeable. Formby- Hall Road is another classic for that

 

[setdown]

I wonder why there isn’t more long-term thinking on the part of Merseytravel. These 777s need to get into service ASAP, the local purse can’t support two fleets of trains indefinitely.

The new trains are going to last, what, 40 years in service? If “defcon” (as described above) is pressed now, you’ll have a couple of years of industrial action and significant disruption. After, you’ll then have 38 years of cheaper DOO operation.

Not that I agree with that, I’m just trying to play devil’s advocate and wondering why Merseytravel wouldn’t do that.

 

[Mordac]

I wonder why there isn’t more long-term thinking on the part of Merseytravel. These 777s need to get into service ASAP, the local purse can’t support two fleets of trains indefinitely.

The new trains are going to last, what, 40 years in service? If “defcon” (as described above) is pressed now, you’ll have a couple of years of industrial action and significant disruption. After, you’ll then have 38 years of cheaper DOO operation.

Not that I agree with that, I’m just trying to play devil’s advocate and wondering why Merseytravel wouldn’t do that.

Trade unions are major donors for Labour. Also, the local branch of ASLEF is refusing to negotiate until the RMT is happy, because on Merseyside, even ASLEF is militant

 

[MattRat]

Trade unions are major donors for Labour. Also, the local branch of ASLEF is refusing to negotiate until the RMT is happy, because on Merseyside, even ASLEF is militant

And if Merseyrail goes bankrupt and the Government gets involved as operator of last resort, and forces DOO through replacing any dissenters with new staff, expect an uproar talking about 'evil Tories', even though they'll have brought the new trains into service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we know what the RMT are likely to accept? (I won't say "want" as I suspect it's full guard operation and a whacking pay rise, neither of which they're likely getting).

Would they be likely to accept driver open, guard close? If so I'd just get on with fitting the panels, probably cost less than more extensions of the PEP leases.

 

[507020]

Do we know what the RMT are likely to accept? (I won't say "want" as I suspect it's full guard operation and a whacking pay rise, neither of which they're likely getting).

Would they be likely to accept driver open, guard close? If so I'd just get on with fitting the panels, probably cost less than more extensions of the PEP leases.

It would help if we could establish whether the guards’ objection was to the proposed new role or the 2 year pay freeze, or both. What was put to the ballot was actually acceptable to both the RMT itself and Merseytravel. It was their members currently employed as guards who rejected it.

 

[railwaytrack]

Do we know what the RMT are likely to accept? (I won't say "want" as I suspect it's full guard operation and a whacking pay rise, neither of which they're likely getting).

Would they be likely to accept driver open, guard close? If so I'd just get on with fitting the panels, probably cost less than more extensions of the PEP leases.

Northern Rail on their 195/331 and Transport For Wales on their 197/230/231/398/756 and London North Western Railway and West Midlands Railway on their 196/730 have all agreed with the RMT to continue the current method where the Guard has full control of both opening the doors and closing the doors and the Driver continues to have nothing to do with the doors so if they can there is no reason why Merseyrail can not agree the same on their 777 trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would help if we could establish whether the guards’ objection was to the proposed new role or the 2 year pay freeze, or both. What was put to the ballot was actually acceptable to both the RMT itself and Merseytravel. It was their members currently employed as guards who rejected it.

It was rather silly to put them both in the same ballot. But then it was also rather silly to have "no pay rise" years when you could have offered a smaller rise every year for the same cost. It seems to be pointlessly antagonistic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2022 ==

Northern Rail on their 195/331 and Transport For Wales on their 197/230/231/398/756 and London North Western Railway and West Midlands Railway on their 196/730 have all agreed with the RMT to continue the current method where the Guard has full control of both opening the doors and closing the doors and the Driver continues to have nothing to do with the doors so if they can there is no reason why Merseyrail can not agree the same on their 777 trains.

There's one very good reason not to agree that - it's slow. It's slow on Northern too. Driver release, guard close is a much better option when you have trains that fit all the platforms or ASDO.

 

[railwaytrack]

It was rather silly to put them both in the same ballot. But then it was also rather silly to have "no pay rise" years when you could have offered a smaller rise every year for the same cost. It seems to be pointlessly antagonistic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2022 ==



There's one very good reason not to agree that - it's slow. It's slow on Northern too. Driver release, guard close is a much better option when you have trains that fit all the platforms or ASDO.

It may be slower but i believe that safety should always takes priority over speed. Incidents such as wrong side door release and off platform door release are much rarer on trains with Guard release and more common on trains with Driver release. I have seen data to show that. On trains with Guard release the Guard will first open their local door and step on to the platform to check it is safe first before then releasing all of the other doors. So that makes the above incidents much harder to occur. So i think that Guard release is a lot safer than Driver release even if it is slower.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It may be slower but i believe that safety should always takes priority over speed. Incidents such as wrong side door release and off platform door release are much rarer on trains with Guard release and more common on trains with Driver release. I have seen data to show that. On trains with Guard release the Guard will first open their local door and step on to the platform to check it is safe first before then releasing all of the other doors. So that makes the above incidents much harder to occur. So i think that Guard release is a lot safer than Driver release even if it is slower.

Wheres the evidence of that not seen it on 30 years of DOO travel on Thameslink