DBS are now offering 90's for sale.

[junglejames]

67s (on the ECML not sure what is used on GEML) provide more flexibility than a 90 would. A 67 could come in and rescue a train stranded by a failure in the OHLE whilst a 90 would be unable to do anything. 67 could also drag a failed set away from the wires altogether should the need arise whilst rescuing a failed set. To me using a diesel as a Thunderbird makes more sense than using a 90 or any other electric loco.

47s and 90s on the GEML. Usually 47s.
As you say, there isnt much point using 90s as a thunderbird on the ECML, but if they wanted to run extra services, then you could hire in a rake of Mk3s, and run the 90s to Leeds. They can keep to time on the Leeds runs.
Frees up 91s for any extra services etc etc.
This was originally the plan when they looked at the Lincoln services.

 

[captainbigun]

47s and 90s on the GEML. Usually 47s.
As you say, there isnt much point using 90s as a thunderbird on the ECML, but if they wanted to run extra services, then you could hire in a rake of Mk3s, and run the 90s to Leeds. They can keep to time on the Leeds runs.
Frees up 91s for any extra services etc etc.
This was originally the plan when they looked at the Lincoln services.

Paths and timings for EC require 125mph stock, 90s and Mk3s would not fit in the current timetable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

captainbigun.. have they got rid of the remaining DBSO s I thought they were in store at long marsden.i know network rail had two for one of their inspection trains,that would leave about 10

NR have converted 3 maybe 4 for use with blue star, TDM in the bin. The remainder are with Riviera plus one in Ireland and a couple of others scattered. I don't think any remain in Eversholt's ownership. There was one at LM, but I think it's gone now. They weren't in great condition when Anglia had them, they will be thoroughly rotten by now.

 

[DarloRich]

arent all ther DBS 90's for sale basically fu*!ed? Fire damge, crash damage, general decay and unpleasentness - cant see much of a future for them other than the torch.

Hope some of the better ones can be reused.

 

[captainbigun]

The main issue with those that have stood for so long will be damp and water damage. I suspect the roofs will have failed to some degree.

Being full of electronics, other than the bits that have been robbed, further decreases the chances of rescuing components. I also understand that some items have already been cut out, any loco that has suffered that will be a write off for sure.

They all require wheelsets/bogie overhaul. I'd not expect to see a loco reactivated for much less than £400k, after purchase. So around the half million including purchase/transport/faffing.

Two hopes of that happening....

 

[junglejames]

Paths and timings for EC require 125mph stock, 90s and Mk3s would not fit in the current timetable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


NR have converted 3 maybe 4 for use with blue star, TDM in the bin. The remainder are with Riviera plus one in Ireland and a couple of others scattered. I don't think any remain in Eversholt's ownership. There was one at LM, but I think it's gone now. They weren't in great condition when Anglia had them, they will be thoroughly rotten by now.

ECs paths must have changed slightly then, because it was definitely the original plan, and its happened before, with the 90 happily keeping to time on a 125mph Leeds path with enough stops.

 

[Pumbaa]

ECs paths must have changed slightly then, because it was definitely the original plan, and its happened before, with the 90 happily keeping to time on a 125mph Leeds path with enough stops.

It was the plan - its not any more! Now the plan is for full 125 running only; 90s are not an option anymore.

 

[Nym]

How about an 89, could that keep time?

 

[yummy125]

I've always felt strongly about the 90's & 92's being dumpted at "CE".

Why not use them again on passenger services for WCML, Midlands, Liverpool St to Norwich, Kings Lynn & ECML. I'm sure there are loads of freight services which they can also be used instead of a "Shed", "Do-nut" or "Skip".

Or is a case of 2 many loco's & horrible units and not enough services.

 

[ainsworth74]

Why not use them again on passenger services for WCML, Midlands, Liverpool St to Norwich, Kings Lynn & ECML. I'm sure there are loads of freight services which they can also be used instead of a "Shed", "Do-nut" or "Skip".

A few problems with that, firstly using what spare coaching stock would you run these services? Secondly locos+stock will struggle to keep time with current stop start services (which is what most of the routes you propose are) compared to units. Thirdly Liverpool - Norwich isn't electrified throughout, and where electrics can be used on freight they generally already are, there aren't dozens of freight flows with diesels running under the wires, some yes but often that's due to stop start nature of electrification on that run.

It's shame to see these locos laid up doing nothing (especially in the case of the 92s) but there isn't the work there for them to do!

 

[RichW1]

does this mean the last place that 90's are running on the network now is Great Eastern?

 

[ainsworth74]

They crop up on freight turns still with Freightliner I think on the WCML, not sure though. However the only place they are in service in any significant number everyday is on the GEML (I think on freight as well as with NXEA now I think about it).

 

[RichW1]

Thanks; seems a shame really. The more I think about what stock's left the more I feel we should really make the most of the next decade of what little's left in terms of variety and specials etc; I really do think by 2020 things will look very generic, even moreso than now. Now maybe the time to get out there and see what's left.

I know it all has to go that way but I think we're in the last years of the enthusiast that can see anything left of any character on the network with a lot having gone already.

I'm wondering how many 37's are left too now! I saw 2 together recently on a dead engine run but i don't know if they've still got any regular diagrams or how long they've got left!

 

[captainbigun]

How about an 89, could that keep time?

Without any problems, of course it was in daily use on the Leeds circuit with GNER between 1997 and 2000 until it's rather untimely demise.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

does this mean the last place that 90's are running on the network now is Great Eastern?

Don't forget the Caledonian Sleepers.

Or the Pretendolino...

 

[ainsworth74]

Don't forget the Caledonian Sleepers.

Or the Pretendolino.

I knew I was forgetting a few services there just seemed to be a few missing! Thanks for that

 

[Peter Sarf]

When the Pendolinos started arriving we should have been completing electrification of another route. That way we would have had somewhere to use the perfectly good stock (Mk3s and AC locos) they replaced. I know its a bit simplistic but its better than where we are now heading.

This country wont electrify something until there are too many new diesel trains around to make it worhtwhile and all spare electric locos have gone to heaven or Romania etc.

If the ROSCOs bought Network Rail perhaps they could guarantee to co-ordinate electrification with rolling stock procurement better than the government can ?.

 

[dave59]

A few problems with that, firstly using what spare coaching stock would you run these services? Secondly locos+stock will struggle to keep time with current stop start services (which is what most of the routes you propose are) compared to units. Thirdly Liverpool - Norwich isn't electrified throughout, and where electrics can be used on freight they generally already are, there aren't dozens of freight flows with diesels running under the wires, some yes but often that's due to stop start nature of electrification on that run.

It's shame to see these locos laid up doing nothing (especially in the case of the 92s) but there isn't the work there for them to do!

I'd like to see the 90's dragging TPX 185's and freight (66 DIT) on the northern WCML, being used as thunderbirds, icebreakers and on more charter trains.

Looking back a few years rather than re-engine the Class 43 for the ECML why didn't operators ''think electric' and modify braking, ETS and gearing on the 90's/DVT's allowing them to haul HST MK3's at 125mph? Would it have cost more to do this than re-engine and refurbish the power cars? BR was guilty of having not procured enough 225 sets and not advocating loco changes for the Hull, H'gate and northern Scotland turns from the start.

Government apathy towards large scale electrification will continue the trend of the UK's unique high speed diesel railway. Scrapping and exporting electrics yet spending huge amounts of money maintaining and refurbishing clapped out old oil burners.

 

[captainbigun]

I'd like to see the 90's dragging TPX 185's and freight (66 DIT) on the northern WCML, being used as thunderbirds, icebreakers and on more charter trains.

This level of ad-hoc has no business case for DBS given the expenditure required to re-activate these machines. You couldn't drag a 185 without provision of a barrier on installation of a new coupling on the 90, no business case. Freight? Not enough haulage capacity, hence pairs of 86s are used in preference.

Looking back a few years rather than re-engine the Class 43 for the ECML why didn't operators ''think electric' and modify braking, ETS and gearing on the 90's/DVT's allowing them to haul HST MK3's at 125mph? Would it have cost more to do this than re-engine and refurbish the power cars? BR was guilty of having not procured enough 225 sets and not advocating loco changes for the Hull, H'gate and northern Scotland turns from the start.

Simple really, it's not possible without completely rebuilding the loco. Probably cheaper to buy new.

Providing a three phase supply big enough would have been nigh on impossible, that's a massive static converter, no room at the inn. Allowing the loco to run at 125 would have required major surgery to the power circuits and provision of another set of batteries for the field circuits. Another bridge too far. Re-gearing for 125 would be marginal, performance would have taken a big hit. All that alongside the HGR really needed anyway? No chance.

 

[dave59]

.

Simple really, it's not possible without completely rebuilding the loco. Probably cheaper to buy new.

Providing a three phase supply big enough would have been nigh on impossible, that's a massive static converter, no room at the inn. Allowing the loco to run at 125 would have required major surgery to the power circuits and provision of another set of batteries for the field circuits. Another bridge too far. Re-gearing for 125 would be marginal, performance would have taken a big hit. All that alongside the HGR really needed anyway? No chance.

Thanks for the explanation of the technical reasons. It seems heavy modifications are fine for diesels but not electrics. A programme of re-engining the 43 (and electrical work on some former WCML mk3's to work with them) is a great 21st century proposition but for the relatively modern 90 "no chance."

If the 90's were such a no-no for any speed modification following the daft ORR 125mph ECML rule, was any thought put into procuring a tranch of suitable electric locos/DVT's rather than making wholesale changes to HST's? I doubt it and that's the disappointing aspect. There has been no will to procure further 125mph electric traction (and implement loco changes for the unwired bits) in the 20 years or so after ECML electrification. If the DfT ever get round to making an IEP announcement it will be interesting if they come up with this very solution.

 

[Peter Sarf]

In the 1950s Britain modernised its railways with new, state of the art (?), steam locomotives. At the same time the rest of Europe was buying diesel locos and/or electrifying. We then got rid of all those relatively new steam engines in the 1960s and replaced them with too many untried diesel designs. We are still perfecting diesel traction whilst the rest of the world is still Electric. We are even disposing of relatively new electric locomotives to the rest of Europe. Of course we wont elecrify even if the price of fossil fuels is rocketing .