TIL - Couldn’t collect TOD

[_toommm_]

It pains me to be posting in this part of the forum as someone who has succumb to the rules, but here we go.

I was making a very early journey from Leeds to Oban, which I booked on TrainSplit. Due to lack of sleep, I forgot to bring my card to collect my tickets, as I normally just pay with Apple Pay. I tried to collect at the ticket office, but the one person couldn’t change it/wasn’t allowed to change it to allow it to be released, so I was told to ask on the train. I approached the guard/TM on the Crosscountry service before departure, and she said take a seat. I of course cooperated with giving her my details and provisional license, and showed her the TOD reference and I apologised as I know it’s my fault. She said she’d put in the report that I cooperated and hopefully they’d just ask for proof of my tickets. She also issued a zero fare ticket.

I’ve received the below letter today, asking for a payment of £193.80, which is a relief that they aren’t going straight for prosecution. I understand from being on the forum for a few years that this is obviously my fault, and it may be a strict liability offence? I also understand that it may take a few appeals to reason with TIL. Does anyone have any advice please? For clarity, when the TrainSplit Customer Service opened in the morning, they changed it swiftly to any card and I collected it at Queen Street.

Thanks in advance!

 

[miklcct]

I think it's the fault of the booking office. I have never encountered trouble when forgetting to take my card at the booking office.

 

[185143]

The first thing that springs to mind is that if you collected your ticket at Glasgow Queen Street, you had a valid ticket from Glasgow to Oban. So if the settlement is calculated based on travelling Leeds-Oban ticketless, then it ideally needs recalculating.

Presumably Trainsplit as the retailer if necessary would be able to provide evidence that you contacted them at the earliest opportunity, had already purchased a ticket and collected it at the earliest opportunity? Though that almost certainly won't get you out of it as you have failed to show a ticket when requested, it could at least show that you did not intend to avoid paying as you'd already paid, and you did not intend to fraudulently refund the tickets afterwards or something as you attempted to collect them at Leeds, and did so in Glasgow.

 

[transportphoto]

You have not committed any offences. Speaking to the TM before boarding and gaining permission to travel on the service from them without a valid ticket negates bylaw offences, and you have not the mens rea to avoid payment for any RoRA offences.

This seems like a harsh punishment for doing the right thing - although inevitable consequence of it being outsourced to TIL. I’d be inclined to say the outcome would be different if the conversation was with XC themselves.

 

[185143]

You have not committed any offences. Speaking to the TM before boarding and gaining permission to travel on the service from them without a valid ticket negates bylaw offences, and you have not the mens rea to avoid payment for any RoRA offences.

This seems like a harsh punishment for doing the right thing - although inevitable consequence of it being outsourced to TIL. I’d be inclined to say the outcome would be different if the conversation was with XC themselves.

That's a good point. Actually proving you were given permission to board is normally difficult, however I'd like to think if the TM has noted the OP was co operative in their report, then they have also noted they came forward to report the issue rather than being discovered.

I dare say the ticket office staff may well remember the case too. I can't believe too many people travel from Leeds to Oban if I'm honest! And far less have TOD issues. Plus presumably the barrier staff have let you through.

 

[LowLevel]

That's a bit unfortunate. I'd have been very reluctant myself to have committed that to paperwork at all at that point in proceedings, and that's with knowing our own prosecutions office are a lot more understanding than TIL.

I'd have been inclined to issue an unpaid fares notice for my part of the journey (which is a fairly simple process to appeal) rather than go straight for a ticket irregularity report.

Hope you manage to get somewhere with TIL.

 

[_toommm_]

You have not committed any offences. Speaking to the TM before boarding and gaining permission to travel on the service from them without a valid ticket negates bylaw offences, and you have not the mens rea to avoid payment for any RoRA offences.

Thank you

Just for my peace of mind, I boarded before the train set off and found the TM before I sat down, who said to sit down and she would come talk to me once the journey starts. Does your point still stand, and if so, could I quote the NRCoT to TIL in an appeal?

Am I right in saying an appeal stops it from going to prosecution too?

 

[swt_passenger]

Thank you

Just for my peace of mind, I boarded before the train set off and found the TM before I sat down, who said to sit down and she would come talk to me once the journey starts. Does your point still stand, and if so, could I quote the NRCoT to TIL in an appeal?

Am I right in saying an appeal stops it from going to prosecution too?

AIUI the type of appeal you’re thinking of only relates to penalty fares. This isn’t a penalty fare situation.

 

[Jason12]

At the moment there is nothing to appeal. You are just in receipt of an assertion, by TIL, that you may have committed an offence.

You should respond, with your version of events, making it crystal clear that having sought advice from the train manager you were asked to travel on the XC service, even though the train manger was aware you had not collected your ticket for the journey.

 

[_toommm_]

AIUI the type of appeal you’re thinking of only relates to penalty fares. This isn’t a penalty fare situation.

Ah right. So with this type of appeal what are the rules? And is email fine?

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah right. So with this type of appeal what are the rules? And is email fine?

At this stage you’re not really appealing, you’re just providing them your version of events. But there are others who are much more familiar with exactly what to do next than I am...

 

[Snow1964]

The letter seems to be a standard one which is rather vague and not specific to unable to collect prepaid tickets

I am not convinced getting permission from Train Manager automatically becomes ….spoken to by a member of railway revenue protection staff….

and ... dispose of this allegation…. and ….may have committed an offence… is rather vague, especially as the letter is signed by someone who has included senior prosecutions in their job title (a rather threatening title for what is basically a letter asking for your version of events)

I think you need to respond that you went to the ticket office but they were unable to get the prepaid tickets printed either at the early hour, and you subsequently collected them at your next main station when more facilities were open

Seems to me you would have been in same situation if your bank card was with you, but collecting station had a single machine whose printer wasn’t working.

I am actually wondering if the zero fare ticket is being followed up, rather than the customers non offence.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’d ask how the settlement was calculated first. If you were issued a zero fare ticket then you were covered with a valid ticket for all parts of the journey except the portion up to where you were caught. You bought and paid for your ticket so there is no revenue loss argued by the company.

 

[philthetube]

Thank you

Just for my peace of mind, I boarded before the train set off and found the TM before I sat down, who said to sit down and she would come talk to me once the journey starts. Does your point still stand, and if so, could I quote the NRCoT to TIL in an appeal?

Am I right in saying an appeal stops it from going to prosecution too?

Sorry to point this out but it did amuse me.

 

[Watershed]

Unfortunately as soon as the Train Manager started issuing a zero fare, alarm bells would have been ringing for me. They generally don't do that unless they complete a TIR, as they will be asked about every zero fare they issue.

There's nothing you can do now to change what happened, but just for future reference I would say that it's worthwhile obtaining some form of evidence that you obtained permission to board, if you don't hold a valid ticket. That could be for example by asking the member of staff to put their permission in writing, or making a recording (whether audio or video, covert or overt).

Whilst 'mere' verbal permission is just as valid, in the absence of independent evidence such as the above, you may face difficulties in proving that permission was given, particularly as XC Voyagers don't have CCTV (and in any case it would be too long ago for any footage to remain). It could come down to whether the Train Manager remembers giving permission, which given that this was all the way back In February... is somewhat unlikely, I'm afraid to say.

It's up to you how you handle the situation, but as always, TIL know that they have you between a rock and a hard place, because the only guaranteed way of avoiding Court is to pay the extortionate settlement!

From what you have described, I don't think you have committed any offence (certainly if anything, it would be a Byelaw offence, rather than RoRA, as you have evidently paid your fare). But it is a question of whether you have the appetite for a potential protracted dispute and trip to Court.

 

[PG]

I’d ask how the settlement was calculated first. If you were issued a zero fare ticket then you were covered with a valid ticket for all parts of the journey except the portion up to where you were caught.

I've struckthrough the last bit since:

• I don't believe @_toommm_ was caught - they sought out the TM prior to departure who gave permission to remain on board and subsequently issued a ticket for travel

She also issued a zero fare ticket

Which stations were listed on this ticket?

 

[_toommm_]

Thank you to you all for your replies! In answer to @PG I believe it was Leeds to Oban, but I’ll double check when I’m home from work as I’ve kept all the tickets. There’s an email on the letter, so I’ll fire one off so there’s a ‘paper’ trail. I’ll explain what I put in the post, but I don’t think I’ll go on the defensive with the NRCoT yet, unless that’s what you’d advise?

I’m just conscious that I don’t want to get TIL’s backs up by being rude on the email.

 

[robbeech]

You had permission to board by an authorised member of staff the moment the ticket office staff told you to ask on the train.

Of course that counts for very little on the railway as it isn’t set up to be accommodating for passengers.

 

[Watershed]

Thank you to you all for your replies! In answer to @PG I believe it was Leeds to Oban, but I’ll double check when I’m home from work as I’ve kept all the tickets. There’s an email on the letter, so I’ll fire one off so there’s a ‘paper’ trail. I’ll explain what I put in the post, but I don’t think I’ll go on the defensive with the NRCoT yet, unless that’s what you’d advise?

I’m just conscious that I don’t want to get TIL’s backs up by being rude on the email.

The NRCoT isn't really relevant, as there are no provisions applying in this situation - it's Byelaw 18(3)(iii) you're concerned with:

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

If you want to defend yourself I see no point in skirting around the key issue - namely that you were given permission to travel, and hence have committed no offence.

 

[transportphoto]

I’m just conscious that I don’t want to get TIL’s backs up by being rude on the email.

I think there’s a balance to be struck between being direct and being rude. Being rude will not get you anywhere, but equally being overly polite and fluffy will mean the point gets missed. I’d agree with Watershed’s comments in their last posting above re bylaw 18(3).

Of course, to be prosecuted, TIL will have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you did not have permission to travel from an authorised person.

 

[Snow1964]

Whilst 'mere' verbal permission is just as valid, in the absence of independent evidence such as the above, you may face difficulties in proving that permission was given, particularly as XC Voyagers don't have CCTV (and in any case it would be too long ago for any footage to remain).

Although if this got to court, (and I mean a proper court with both sides, not one where defendant isn’t invited), then it works both ways, they would have just as much difficulty proving you didn’t.

Actually it would be much harder for the other side, as they have confirmed they got your details by speaking to you, so they are admitting a conversation took place, and it would be one persons word against another about the permission to take a seat.

 

[some bloke]

The prosecutor would need to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt to secure a lawful conviction, but not each element of the case such as the absence of permission to travel. The burden of proof for that would be on the defendant:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/43/section/101

"Where a legal burden of proof is on a defendant, s/he can satisfy it if s/he proves the issue on the balance of probabilities"

https://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/enforcementguide/court/rules-prove.htm

 

[transportphoto]

The prosecutor would need to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt to secure a lawful conviction, but not each element of the case such as the absence of permission to travel. The burden of proof for that would be on the defendant:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/43/section/101


https://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/enforcementguide/court/rules-prove.htm

I bow to your greater knowledge!

 

[Haywain]

Although if this got to court, (and I mean a proper court with both sides, not one where defendant isn’t invited),

We don’t have courts in this country where “the defendant isn’t invited”.

 

[RPI]

I've only skimmed through this, but it seems you have been treated harsh.

I would have attempted to print the TOD on my machine on the train.

Failing that as @LowLevel had said, I'd have done a UFN for my part of the journey advising collection at the next staffed station.

Though this is all irrelevant now.

If I read correctly you did I fact collect the ticket at Glasgow? Therefore the railway has lost nothing, if it can be proven that permission was granted to board the train (it would be interesting to read what the Train Manager wrote in their report) then I personally can't see any offences, but don't hold me to that.

TIL are a nightmare, others have posted good advice, it is situations like this that give the railways and particularly Revenue Protection staff a bad reputation.

 

[island]

I think the OP may fall down on the need to prove they were given permission to travel, which is a shame really as I think CrossCountry haven't been very fair here. Sadly that tends to be par for the course now.

 

[Jason12]

If it came to court, what would prevent the OP calling the train manager as a witness?

 

[RPI]

I think the OP may fall down on the need to prove they were given permission to travel, which is a shame really as I think CrossCountry haven't been very fair here. Sadly that tends to be par for the course now.

Agreed, however, obtaining a copy of the guards statement could be handy.

For all we know they may well have put in there that they allowed the op to board!

 

[transportphoto]

Would there be any benefit in the OP trying to deal with XC directly, rather than TIL? I’d hope any sensible individual with the right authority in XC would tell TIL to discontinue the case in the view of customer service.

The problem would be making contact with the right person - does anyone know CrossCountry’s email format? Colette Casey is their Customer Director who is responsible for ensuring “customers receive a great CrossCountry experience every day.” (https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/about-us/meet-the-team)

My guess would be FirstName.LastName@ crosscountrytrains.co.uk based on their publicly advertised email addresses.

 

[island]

If it came to court, what would prevent the OP calling the train manager as a witness?

Nothing, but the train manager may well say they don't remember giving permission.