Phone speaker noise on trains - have we given up completely?

[mmh]

It is a Byelaw offence here too.

Feel free to let us know which mentions laptops, rather than an all-encompassing one. That was rather my point, we already have laws which can cover pretty much everything you'd want to be covered.

At one point Southern's toilet doors had a wheelchair symbol with "Priority By Law." We are not a country that needs to do that. We'll do with "please give up your seat" signs, rather than the Californian approach of "use of this seat is allowed under xxx unless yyy by zzz law"

We have no need to become like that.

 

[py_megapixel]

At one point Southern's toilet doors had a wheelchair symbol with "Priority By Law."

I believe that sort of sign is (generally) intended to refer to the wheelchair space not the toilet.

We are not a country that needs to do that.

If wheelchair-bound passengers are struggling to get access to the space they need to be able to travel because of other passengers obstructing the space, then we absolutely are.

 

[pinkmarie80]

I will admit I’m guilty of having my music up way too loud (but always with AirPods in situ) and I probably do talk quite loudly.
I am very deaf however (and I have been since birth so it’s got absolutely nothing to do with the level of my music) and I can’t always tell how loud I am speaking.
Anti social behaviour really irritates me too, especially those who don’t use headphones but I just wanted to point out that some of us in the Ddeaf community genuinely cannot help it.

 

[GusB]

I will admit I’m guilty of having my music up way too loud (but always with AirPods in situ) and I probably do talk quite loudly.
I am very deaf however (and I have been since birth so it’s got absolutely nothing to do with the level of my music) and I can’t always tell how loud I am speaking.
Anti social behaviour really irritates me too, especially those who don’t use headphones but I just wanted to point out that some of us in the Ddeaf community genuinely cannot help it.

I don't think anyone should be having a go at you if you have a hearing issue. You mention being part of the deaf community - is there any way you can signal to others that you're not just being anti-social? My question is simply out of curiosity (and ignorance) more than anything else.

 

[pinkmarie80]

I don't think anyone should be having a go at you if you have a hearing issue. You mention being part of the deaf community - is there any way you can signal to others that you're not just being anti-social? My question is simply out of curiosity (and ignorance) more than anything else.

I do on occasion (although not so much now masks are less widely worn) have a card on a lanyard round my neck which explains that I am deaf. I know others on the Facebook support pages wear similar lanyards or badges to explain their hearing impairment.

 

[reb0118]

I generally ask for devices to be switched off or headphones used however on a service yesterday after getting the music stopped we could now clearly hear a hen party discussing in great detail their combined gynecological problems & issues. The menfolk of the Scottish Borders were black affronted.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Back when "Quiet Coaches" were relatively new and occasionally enforced, it used to really annoy me if I ended up in one. Not because I like to make noise, but because I'd become paranoid that my headphones could be heard by others, and someone would challenge me on it.

The only time I ever was challenged for that was years later in Germany on an ICE. ČD had kindly booked me in the quiet coach without giving me an option to avoid it. The irony being that the coach wasn't particularly quiet anyway so I'm not sure why a faint hiss from my headphones was such an irritant to one particularly sour-faced old "Fischfrau"!

 

[Traintripper]

I was lucky enough to go from Kings Cross to Inverness last year in first as part of LNERs seat sale. It was a bucket list trip for me. I took my single seat and settled down, looking forward to the journey ahead. Then, a businessman type bloke sat behind me and starting phoning people. I ended up keeping a tally chart of how many calls he was making an hour. I knew all about his job, his plans for the weekend, how was going to set up an allowance for his son who had just started at uni. The most calls was 8 separate calls in one hour, he averaged about 5 per hour. None important, because I had to listen to everyone. I knew before we left London, I’d got him to Stirling! No one else in that carriage made a sound, but for five solid hours I had to listen to an overgrown child talk about himself to whoever would pick up the phone. I’m obviously a mad tempered, intolerant madam, but being 20 years older than me, I’d have expected better behaviour from him. He honestly spoilt my journey.

 

[OliverReed]

It's not just fear of being threatened that might stop people calling it out - if the person causing the noise is sat next to you or at a table with you, then even if they comply, you might have to spend the rest of the journey in an awkward atmosphere because they now resent you.

It should really be the job of train staff. While I get it that no-one wants confrontation (and the threat that might be attached) in their job, if it's already your duty to challenge people travelling without a valid ticket, then you ought also to be able to ask people to turn the noise down.

In 2017 I called out a drunken middle aged male passenger on a late night train for harassing a 15 year old girl. This culminated in me almost having near fisticuffs on the platform at Kettering in the dead of night. Part of getting this guy away from the girl was calling out his behaviour. But guess what. I don’t remember the great British public rushing to my aide. Probably cos he was huge and drunk. I was very much on my own.

Now in a situation like that I will always protect the passenger. But the amount of violent assaults on guards has been on the up and up. I’m not going to get chinned over headphone use. There is a considerable financial cost of being off work after an assault. So my employer won’t thank me and let’s be honest if I cause a delay. Will the public?

Part of successful conflict management is about choosing your battles wisely.

 

[Gareth]

Yeah, no one backs you up. Learned this on a bus, years ago now, when some ******* kids were using a McDonald's straw as a pea shooter, with bits of chewed up paper as ammunition. They were targeting everyone, me included. Not only did no one back me up when I told them to pack it in, one bellend even decided to take their side; presumably so that they'd leave him alone. Driver did sod all either. I find drivers can more often than not end it there and then by threatening to kick them off. And when that doesn't work, actually kick them off. They usually refuse but then the driver pulls over and says he isn't going anywhere until they leave. You'll find, at this stage, other passengers, not wanting to be delayed, suddenly start becoming very vocal and yell at the assailants to bugger off and they usually do. Most drivers don't bother though.

 

[BRX]

In 2017 I called out a drunken middle aged male passenger on a late night train for harassing a 15 year old girl. This culminated in me almost having near fisticuffs on the platform at Kettering in the dead of night. Part of getting this guy away from the girl was calling out his behaviour. But guess what. I don’t remember the great British public rushing to my aide. Probably cos he was huge and drunk. I was very much on my own.

Now in a situation like that I will always protect the passenger. But the amount of violent assaults on guards has been on the up and up. I’m not going to get chinned over headphone use. There is a considerable financial cost of being off work after an assault. So my employer won’t thank me and let’s be honest if I cause a delay. Will the public?

Part of successful conflict management is about choosing your battles wisely.

I get what you are saying, and wouldn't want to see someone put themselves at risk of violence over noise nuisance.

But there is loads of stuff, well short of that, which could be done, but isn't. I don't mean to blame staff - it needs to be led by TOC and their policy. As I said previously, simple things like it being mentioned in announcements and possibly also on signage, so that the basic "rules" are established.

My observation - especially recently - is that the majority of people creating the nuisance are not the type where challenging them appear likely to result in major conflict. If there's someone doing it where a member of staff judges that challenging them would put them at significant risk - then for sure, it's not worth it. But it appears to me that there are a lot of passengers where a simple, polite request - "could I please request that you use headphones if you want to listen to audio, so as not to disturb other passengers?" would have a result. If they refuse to comply, they refuse to comply. But if those kinds of requests were a routine part of doing ticket checks or walk-throughs, combined with a clearly stated policy, then I think it would make a difference.

In the thread title I ask "have we given up completely" because it appears to me that absolutely no attempts are being made to deal with it. Again, I don't direct the blame at staff because they need to be backed up by clear policy from the operators.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Remember when the main irritation was being able to hear tinny noise leaking from headphones, and if you were the culprit, someone might actually ask you to turn the volume down? I'd happily return to that time now.

I feel that things seem to have rapidly gone downhill in the past few years, such that quite a large number of people have now decided it's fine to play whatever you like on your phone or tablet or laptop speakers.

It's become so widespread that I now wonder if it would be me who's out of step with social norms, if I were to ask someone to turn it off or get some headphones.

In the past, there might be one person in a carriage causing the noise irritation and a number of people around looking sufficiently annoyed that you would feel you'd have some backup if you decided to be the challenger.

Doesn't feel so much like that now.

Quiet coaches are not all that much help. I don't think I've ever seen a member of railway staff all someone to turn something down - even in quiet coaches.

So, has society decided it's acceptable and I just have to get used to it, and bring some noise cancelling headphones on any journey where I don't want to have to listen to several people's choice in music/YouTube videos/football matches/speakerphone calls simultaneously?

For longer journeys I think I'd actually pay a little extra to sit in a quiet coach with a fully enforced zero tolerance policy.

I pick my battles. A lady had YouTube blazing on loudspeaker so I said quite bluntly “is there any chance you can turn that down? It’s pretty loud”. She said “oh sorry, sorry, sorry” and it was switched off. Job done

 

[gazzaa2]

In 2017 I called out a drunken middle aged male passenger on a late night train for harassing a 15 year old girl. This culminated in me almost having near fisticuffs on the platform at Kettering in the dead of night. Part of getting this guy away from the girl was calling out his behaviour. But guess what. I don’t remember the great British public rushing to my aide. Probably cos he was huge and drunk. I was very much on my own.

Now in a situation like that I will always protect the passenger. But the amount of violent assaults on guards has been on the up and up. I’m not going to get chinned over headphone use. There is a considerable financial cost of being off work after an assault. So my employer won’t thank me and let’s be honest if I cause a delay. Will the public?

Part of successful conflict management is about choosing your battles wisely.

With regards to noise off a device i'd expect a guard to at least politely ask the passenger if they could either switch off or put their headphones in if they're going past/checking tickets. If they ignore it it's then up to them whether they want to take it further or just walk away. It's guards and other passengers saying and doing nothing that causes this behaviour to become normalised. People should know it's something they shouldn't be doing. You'll always get the minority who couldn't care less about anyone else but the majority will follow rules (i.e. masks when they were required). There'll always be some that won't, but the key is the majority.

If a guard says "would you be able to put your headphones in for the sake of other passengers please, sir, it's loud?" then it's less confrontational anyway than a demand. If they refuse at that point then they don't give a damn about anyone else anyway. Because it's becoming normalised, people will think nothing of it and just need telling. People copy what they see others do.

 

[OliverReed]

“A lady had YouTube on”

What would you do with a drunken football fan who’s team have just lost?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2022 ==

A lot of armchair tough guys on here.

Last week a colleague asked a fare evader if he needed help with his ticket. He had the crap beaten out of him and it took six people to get the guy off him. He’s been off work a fortnight. His train was cancelled.
Also as someone else said. Operators don’t back their staff up. If there was a clear antisocial behaviour policy poster on every train and at every station. It would help. But policy changes like the wind.

 

[jamesst]

“A lady had YouTube on”

What would you do with a drunken football fan who’s team have just lost?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2022 ==

A lot of armchair tough guys on here.

Last week a colleague asked a fare evader if he needed help with his ticket. He had the crap beaten out of him and it took six people to get the guy off him. He’s been off work a fortnight. His train was cancelled.
Also as someone else said. Operators don’t back their staff up. If there was a clear antisocial behaviour policy poster on every train and at every station. It would help. But policy changes like the wind.

This exactly.
You can follow the latest company policy to the letter yet if anything happens it always becomes a game of find the scapegoat.

 

[maniacmartin]

It's interesting to me that people have had so many issues with phone noise. My experience is that the most annoying fellow passengers are often drunken women in their 30s and 40s, off on a "girls night out". They can make an unbelievable amount of noise without any electronic devices.

I have challenged people in the past before, usually only after making eye contact with other passengers who are also irritated. It always results in being told to f*** off and mind my own business, or them claiming they are not being noisy. There's not a lot else you can really do in that case.

I think this is reflective of the general lack of respect generally in society, and the sorry state of policing. On the last few occasions that I've had cause to call the police recently (not railway related), the general impression I got back was that they weren't that interested in what I was reporting anyway.

 

[james_the_xv]

I think this is reflective of the general lack of respect generally in society, and the sorry state of policing. On the last few occasions that I've had cause to call the police recently (not railway related), the general impression I got back was that they weren't that interested in what I was reporting anyway.

If it's not endangering people, they just want you to report it online and get a crime number.

I'm very fond of the modern world, but more efficient discipline wouldn't go a miss at all ages. Between parents, police, and people in positions of authority (Train managers in this case) everyone seems scared of getting sued or just can't be arsed.

I could make some wild accusations and profound statements on the state of the world for young people (as a relatively young person) but the fact is that society seems happy to not challenge troublemakers. If I'm sitting at a table or across on a 390 in the quiet coach and someone is making noise, I might say something. But I'm not going out of my way to cause trouble. IMO should be the TMs job to challenge anti-social behaviour.

 

[gazzaa2]

It's interesting to me that people have had so many issues with phone noise. My experience is that the most annoying fellow passengers are often drunken women in their 30s and 40s, off on a "girls night out". They can make an unbelievable amount of noise without any electronic devices.

I have challenged people in the past before, usually only after making eye contact with other passengers who are also irritated. It always results in being told to f*** off and mind my own business, or them claiming they are not being noisy. There's not a lot else you can really do in that case.

I think this is reflective of the general lack of respect generally in society, and the sorry state of policing. On the last few occasions that I've had cause to call the police recently (not railway related), the general impression I got back was that they weren't that interested in what I was reporting anyway.

Phone noise is every bloody journey though. You can't even go on a 10 minute journey now without listening to someone's phone noise, be it a video or a phone call. Stag or hen parties are extremely annoying but I haven't be stuck on a carriage with one often and if you are there's often the option of moving carriages as they tend to be on a journey to a big city on an inter-city train. They'll also invariably travel at specific times on the weekend.

If you challenge someone and they tell you where to go then it's best left alone at that point. People will tend to respond in two ways when challenged; they'll be apologetic and comply, or they'll get abusive. It's the risk of the latter that stops passengers or guards from challenging people more but the people who will turn on you for challenging them are just the dregs of society who can't be reasoned with.

The danger of anti-social behaviour becoming normalised is when obnoxious behaviour continually goes unchallenged and this is where TOC's need to do more for their passengers (and staff). The fewer people that get challenged, the more people that will get annoyed when they are challenged, as they don't see how they're doing anything wrong.

 

[cjmillsnun]

"Excuse me, do you mind..."

The modern fascination for more regulation, more laws is not a good thing. Use what we already have. Or, perhaps, stop being miserable

I find the answer to that quite often is a hand gesture involving an extended middle finger or being told to go forth and multiply.

And wanting some peace and quiet is not being miserable. We all need it from time to time.

 

[al78]

I find the answer to that quite often is a hand gesture involving an extended middle finger or being told to go forth and multiply.

And wanting some peace and quiet is not being miserable. We all need it from time to time.

Difficult to get peace and quiet on a train with the station calling pattern/this train will divide at ... announcements and "see it say it sorted".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2022 ==

If it's not endangering people, they just want you to report it online and get a crime number.

I'm very fond of the modern world, but more efficient discipline wouldn't go a miss at all ages. Between parents, police, and people in positions of authority (Train managers in this case) everyone seems scared of getting sued or just can't be arsed.

I could make some wild accusations and profound statements on the state of the world for young people (as a relatively young person) but the fact is that society seems happy to not challenge troublemakers. If I'm sitting at a table or across on a 390 in the quiet coach and someone is making noise, I might say something. But I'm not going out of my way to cause trouble. IMO should be the TMs job to challenge anti-social behaviour.

Speaking personally, I would like to challenge troublemakers (it is rare I encounter any that properly annoy me), but I am not good at street fighting, and don't have the strength or physique of the world's strongest man winner, so it is a case of don't start what you are not prepared to finish, and if they get physical (which in some cases takes minimal provocation), I will not be able to finish it. Given I had a near fatal head injury from a road accident seven years ago and have a metal plate in my skull, putting myself in a position where assault and a blow to the head is an elevated risk is not desirable (I will probably not survive another major head trauma).

 

[gabrielhj07]

Difficult to get peace and quiet on a train with the station calling pattern

It might be interesting to find out what the longest stopping pattern announcement is. The XC NCL-PNZ & ABD-PLY are quite bad, but you wouldn't hear that so often with reasonable time between stops. I think one of the worst must be listening to the full St Albans - Sutton all stops to everywhere announcement every few minutes on Thameslink.

 

[al78]

It might be interesting to find out what the longest stopping pattern announcement is. The XC NCL-PNZ & ABD-PLY are quite bad, but you wouldn't hear that so often with reasonable time between stops. I think one of the worst must be listening to the full St Albans - Sutton all stops to everywhere announcement every few minutes on Thameslink.

Don't know about the longest, but travelling from London Bridge to Horsham on the Southampton/Bognor Regis service, it seems to take a while to announce the destinations, announce the train is dividing at Horsham and which coaches you need to be in for each destination, announce every stop on both routes, and announce any stations with short platforms (can't remember if there are any on that route, there are none before Horsham).

 

[Gareth]

There's basically two broad categories of offenders, as this thread demonstrates:

1. The obnoxious - pissed up footy fans, pissed up hen parties, teens who think they're dead hard because there's a group of them and generic lout types.

2. Otherwise civilised people who seem to genuinely posses no self-awareness that watching an episode of The Big Bang Theory on loudspeaker might not be what everyone else in earshot wants to endure.

Category 1 have always been with us. If it's worse these days than in the past (I'm not sure whether or not it actually is) then that's down to worse policing and security. This is not something a lone passenger can do much about and with this category, not only is being asked to dial it down unlikely to be responded to favourably, you're also sticking a "please pick on me" target on your back and raising the risk of being assaulted.

It's actually the second category that's a more recent development and actually more concerning. I, for the life of me, can't understand how someone can genuinely not comprehend that playing music or a TV show on loud speaker will not bother anyone else. I cringe at the thought of doing it myself. But it seems to be the case. And we're not just talking about kids and teenagers here, who've grown up with the technology. It worries me that we're shifting into a "I'll do what I want and if I tread on your toes doing it, nothing personal but that's your problem not mine" culture. This is the category where it needs nipping in the bud and we need to try and make sure such behaviour is not normalised. People in this category are more likely to respond constructively to requests to turn it down and if it happens to them often, should get into the habit of doing so without being prompted. Transportation companies need to do a bit more nudging also.

The local buses have very polite notices about using earphones but they're a bit too soft to me. "Earphones Only" needs to be insisted on, loudly and firmly and that you'll be asked once and once only if in violation, otherwise you'll be kicked off.

I really do think something proactive needs to be done, otherwise, such behaviour will get ever more entrenched in the culture.

 

[gazzaa2]

There's basically two broad categories of offenders, as this thread demonstrates:

1. The obnoxious - pissed up footy fans, pissed up hen parties, teens who think they're dead hard because there's a group of them and generic lout types.

2. Otherwise civilised people who seem to genuinely posses no self-awareness that watching an episode of The Big Bang Theory on loudspeaker might not be what everyone else in earshot wants to endure.

Category 1 have always been with us. If it's worse these days than in the past (I'm not sure whether or not it actually is) then that's down to worse policing and security. This is not something a lone passenger can do much about and with this category, not only is being asked to dial it down unlikely to be responded to favourably, you're also sticking a "please pick on me" target on your back and raising the risk of being assaulted.

It's actually the second category that's a more recent development and actually more concerning. I, for the life of me, can't understand why someone can genuinely not comprehend that playing music or a TV show on loud speaker will not bother anyone else. I cringe at the thought of doing it myself. But it seems to be the case. And we're not just talking about kids and teenagers here, who've grown up with the technology. It worries me that we're shifting into a "I'll do what I want and if I tread on your toes doing it, nothing personal but that's your problem not mine" culture. This is the category where it needs nipping in the bud and we need to try and make sure such behaviour is not normalised. People in this category are more likely to respond constructively to requests to turn it down and if it happens to them often, should get into the habit of doing so without being prompted. Transportation companies need to do a bit more nudging also.

The local buses have very polite notices about using earphones but they're a bit too soft to me. "Earphones Only" needs to be insisted on, loudly and firmly and that you'll be asked once and once only if in violation, otherwise you'll be kicked off.

I really do think something proactive needs to be done, otherwise, such behaviour will get ever more entrenched in the culture.

This is it. You have to put up with the first category to some extent (the problem of pissed up footy fans was worse back in the British Rail days for example for hooliganism and vandalism) but the 2nd category are the ones that need calling out more on obnoxious behaviour because they don't know any better. If they aren't told they'll keep on and more will follow. People take their cues from other people.

Otherwise it'll be normalised to the point where rather than fear being assaulted you'll be looked at as crazy for asking someone not to put their phone on loud speaker.

 

[Need2]

There's basically two broad categories of offenders, as this thread demonstrates:

1. The obnoxious - pissed up footy fans, pissed up hen parties, teens who think they're dead hard because there's a group of them and generic lout types.

2. Otherwise civilised people who seem to genuinely posses no self-awareness that watching an episode of The Big Bang Theory on loudspeaker might not be what everyone else in earshot wants to endure.

Category 1 have always been with us. If it's worse these days than in the past (I'm not sure whether or not it actually is) then that's down to worse policing and security. This is not something a lone passenger can do much about and with this category, not only is being asked to dial it down unlikely to be responded to favourably, you're also sticking a "please pick on me" target on your back and raising the risk of being assaulted.

It's actually the second category that's a more recent development and actually more concerning. I, for the life of me, can't understand how someone can genuinely not comprehend that playing music or a TV show on loud speaker will not bother anyone else. I cringe at the thought of doing it myself. But it seems to be the case. And we're not just talking about kids and teenagers here, who've grown up with the technology. It worries me that we're shifting into a "I'll do what I want and if I tread on your toes doing it, nothing personal but that's your problem not mine" culture. This is the category where it needs nipping in the bud and we need to try and make sure such behaviour is not normalised. People in this category are more likely to respond constructively to requests to turn it down and if it happens to them often, should get into the habit of doing so without being prompted. Transportation companies need to do a bit more nudging also.

The local buses have very polite notices about using earphones but they're a bit too soft to me. "Earphones Only" needs to be insisted on, loudly and firmly and that you'll be asked once and once only if in violation, otherwise you'll be kicked off.

I really do think something proactive needs to be done, otherwise, such behaviour will get ever more entrenched in the culture.

100%

 

[kristiang85]

Ah the joys of being on an SWR train from London in the quiet carriage with a group of eight "lads lads lads" who just seem to be determined to break the decibel records. I know travelling on the 10pm carries this risk, but it's a pity the rules are never enforced after a certain time (but I do not blame staff in not doing so, as it causes more aggro than is necessary, but it's a shame the respect isn't there!).

At least it's so loud I can't hear peoples' phone speakers...

 

[alastair]

Phone noise is every bloody journey though. You can't even go on a 10 minute journey now without listening to someone's phone noise, be it a video or a phone call.

It really is'nt, or not everywhere anyway. I've travelled on around 10 SWR and 8 Southern trains in the last 2 weeks (both London commuter and longer distance) and have not encountered any phone or video noise nuisance on any of them. Maybe I have just been very lucky..

 

[Falcon1200]

but it's a pity the rules are never enforced after a certain time (but I do not blame staff in not doing so, as it causes more aggro than is necessary, but it's a shame the respect isn't there!).

It is indeed a pity, but I don't know how the rules can be enforced when a group of young males is involved, I would certainly not expect a lone Guard, or passenger, to risk abuse or worse by challenging such behaviour. Short of having several Police Officers on every late night train, clearly impossible, is there any solution ?

 

[Dai Corner]

It is indeed a pity, but I don't know how the rules can be enforced when a group of young males is involved, I would certainly not expect a lone Guard, or passenger, to risk abuse or worse by challenging such behaviour. Short of having several Police Officers on every late night train, clearly impossible, is there any solution ?

Having civilian security staff on each train and/or station where most disruptive passengers board?

 

[weepingwillowb]

The footbridge at Lancaster station used to have this sign on display (photographed in August, 2014), but it's no longer there. Perhaps taken down when lockdown began.