Was losing Stagecoach/Virgin bad for the railway?

[Retorus]

During Virgin’s days, advance fares between London and Birmingham could often be found for £10 or even £7.50. Now £17.40 seems to be the minimum but in practice I find it hard to find those costing less than £20.

Prices would have risen under Virgin if they were still around, they wouldn’t be exempt.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Prices would have risen under Virgin if they were still around, they wouldn’t be exempt.

There’s price rises as per inflation, and there’s the wholesale removal of advances by Avanti which is massively increasing prices for no reason.

 

[Goldfish62]

A similar feeling from over here in SWR land to be honest. Initially I welcomed the First Group franchise as Stagecoach had become rather stagnant on SWT, with little innovation, higher fares and a roughly steady levels of service (though the infrastructure changes and failures of 2017 didn’t help including Waterloo) and First did a good job on the Western once they got their act together. But given everything that’s happened since, would I welcome Stagecoach back - Yes, with open arms. Anything to replace the mess we’ve been left with now.

Be careful what you wish for. Stagecoach is a very different beast now from what it was even five years ago. Of the big bus groups they certainly seem to have been taking the brunt of staff shortages and industrial unrest over the past year.

Also bear in mind that it would have been under a new franchise with new terms and commitments which many of us may not like. For example, I don't whether it's true, but I read somewhere that Stagecoach were planning exactly the same 1st Class reconfiguration on the Desiros as has been carried out under SWR.

 

[al78]

You do wonder why a they manage so well in Italy where each train has numerous options but get it so muddled up here.

The Uk cocks up where another country manages well, what a surprise, NOT.

COVID vaccination is one thing the UK has excelled at internationally in recent years, and I wouldn't be surprised if it overtakes the 1966 world cup final to be used for bragging rights.

 

[LowLevel]

One thing I do miss about East Midlands Trains was the slightly more adventurous ethos that benefitted from the slack in the HST fleet, running various rail tours both for UK Railtours and for the benefit of charity, as well as occasional forays with 15x units to heritage railways and so on. There were a lot of enthusiasts in senior positions who were happy to make things like that happen. EMR don't have the slack in the fleet to make such things happen, though at least they did tip their hats to the HSTs in various ways when they finished.

 

[fgwrich]

Be careful what you wish for. Stagecoach is a very different beast now from what it was even five years ago. Of the big bus groups they certainly seem to have been taking the brunt of staff shortages and industrial unrest over the past year.

Also bear in mind that it would have been under a new franchise with new terms and commitments which many of us may not like. For example, I don't whether it's true, but I read somewhere that Stagecoach were planning exactly the same 1st Class reconfiguration on the Desiros as has been carried out under SWR.

There certainly is that. Of the two groups, I’ve always found First to be a half decent rail operator that just happens to run buses (not so well) while Stagecoach were a bus company who happened to also operate a railway franchise or two. Now, First seems to have turned into a better bus company and dropped the ball on its rail businesses, Stagecoach are out of the rail game and making a meal of its bus business (and introducing one of the worst rebrands I’ve seen in years) and everything’s now controlled by the DfT.

 

[387star]

Didn't the MD of SWT not want to do away with Guards or is this a railway myth ?

SWT were very good at getting the basics right and did a fantastic job on the 455/456 fleet. It helped most of their trains were comfortable. You always knew standards would be good at a time when national express was letting greater anglia go to hell

 

[Goldfish62]

There certainly is that. Of the two groups, I’ve always found First to be a half decent rail operator that just happens to run buses (not so well) while Stagecoach were a bus company who happened to also operate a railway franchise or two. Now, First seems to have turned into a better bus company and dropped the ball on its rail businesses, Stagecoach are out of the rail game and making a meal of its bus business (and introducing one of the worst rebrands I’ve seen in years) and everything’s now controlled by the DfT.

Well summarised. Completely agree.

 

[43096]

One thing I do miss about East Midlands Trains was the slightly more adventurous ethos that benefitted from the slack in the HST fleet, running various rail tours both for UK Railtours and for the benefit of charity, as well as occasional forays with 15x units to heritage railways and so on. There were a lot of enthusiasts in senior positions who were happy to make things like that happen. EMR don't have the slack in the fleet to make such things happen, though at least they did tip their hats to the HSTs in various ways when they finished.

Stagecoach had a can-do attitude in their rail business, which came from the top. Things like the HSTs to Skegness were a result of that, despite barriers put in the way by external parties - the result was a better service for the punters at a cheaper cost for the company. The various rail tours were also used as an opportunity for development and training for the likes of train planners, so there was a wider benefit to doing them.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Be careful what you wish for. Stagecoach is a very different beast now from what it was even five years ago. Of the big bus groups they certainly seem to have been taking the brunt of staff shortages and industrial unrest over the past year.

Also bear in mind that it would have been under a new franchise with new terms and commitments which many of us may not like. For example, I don't whether it's true, but I read somewhere that Stagecoach were planning exactly the same 1st Class reconfiguration on the Desiros as has been carried out under SWR.

Stagecoach now is shortly just going to be part of National Express. Another woeful former train operator. SWT were competent. Which is about the best you could hope for from a commuter service. SWR do not seem to be.

 

[Tetchytyke]

there’s the wholesale removal of advances by Avanti which is massively increasing prices for no reason.

Wouldn't be any different with any other operator. The same financial pressures apply to everyone. And advance fares are unregulated.

Stagecoach effectively withdrew the cheapest advance tiers when they took over VTEC, too.

 

[Carlisle]

Didn't the MD of SWT not want to do away with Guards or is this a railway myth ?

Brian Cox renewed the suburban DOO equipment & planned guards operate OBS type roles on 455s & the incoming 458s but everything was dropped after a threatened strike in mid 1998 .

 

[Fishplate84]

They did. Think back to the late 1990s and 2000s, the Virgin brand bought a bit of glamour and image to the railway. I have (non railway enthusiast friends) who were really excited to travel on a Virgin Pendolino train. Had it been an Avanti Pendolino of a Horizon Trains Pendolino they wouldn't have seen it as anywhere near as glamorous.

Don't under estimate the power of a brand.

A lot to be said for this and something I don't think traditional rail folk like and DfT simply don't get. Brands have power and trust and that, whatever the reality, goes a long way unless it truly is destroyed (see P&O's debacle as a good example of a powerful brand who's flushed itself down the toilet - in my experience the ships and services are generally nowhere near as good as DFDS or Stena, but P&O still had a premium and deeply routed quality image).

I don't have any particular view on Richard Branson, but I do think he waved some magic dust over the service and in my minor dealings with them it was extrordianary how deep the brand values ran through the staff, their pride and attitude. The genuinely saw themselves a cut above the rest of the market in the same way the original GNER were and Eurostar still are. And that's a good thing.
No doubt the railway manderins in DfT and unions despised this and the possibility Virgin were making a crust from it, but I thought it a sad day Virgin lost the franchise. Maybe operationally Avanti are competent and brought a few new ideas but you can't escape the feeling that the successful bidder was the 'most economically advantageous', i.e., the cheapest, so any superflous glitter that Virgin seemed to excel in, would have been the first thing to be cut.
Most people don't give a stuff about the operator and i'm still struck by the number of people who talk about 'British Rail' when talking about the railway. Virgin managed to quickly apply some youthful, fun, airline glamour which people were already familiar with, had positive sentiment of and generally liked.

 

[Skymonster]

Losing Stagecoach / EMT was bad for the East Midlands, but Stagecoach was no where near as good as National Express / Midland Mainline - we’ve been in a sad spiral of descent as far as rail is concerned ever since

 

[Hadders]

I don't have any particular view on Richard Branson, but I do think he waved some magic dust over the service and in my minor dealings with them it was extrordianary how deep the brand values ran through the staff, their pride and attitude.

I happened to travel on the very last Virgin service out of Euston. Loads of staff turned out all prudly wearing their Virgin Trains uniforms, I felt they had a genuine sense of pride in the brand and were sad they were no longer going to be part of it.

I cannot imaging staff have every turned out like that before, or will do again, when a frenchise changes hands.

 

[Christmas]

I see Avanti staff are sporting new uniforms in that Peacock green. Virgin's red uniforms were a bit too tarty for my liking and it's a pity LNER has stuck with this red too.
Strangely LNER seem to have retained more Virgin influence than Avanti, despite only being Virginised for a mere two years.

 

[Robertj21a]

Stagecoach now is shortly just going to be part of National Express. Another woeful former train operator. SWT were competent. Which is about the best you could hope for from a commuter service. SWR do not seem to be.

Stagecoach is not now being taken over by/merged with National Express.

 

[Carlisle]

I cannot imaging staff have every turned out like that before, or will do again, when a frenchise changes hands.

I agree the brand played a significant part in generating business for the modernised WCML but many posters on here over the years have pointed out Virgin wouldn’t ever have bid for an unglamorous inner suburban franchise anyway .

 

[43096]

Losing Stagecoach / EMT was bad for the East Midlands, but Stagecoach was no where near as good as National Express / Midland Mainline - we’ve been in a sad spiral of descent as far as rail is concerned ever since

You've evidently blocked out MML's performance in the early 2000s, when they were the worst performing operator until late 2003. It was sorted out from late 2003 when David Franks took over as interim MD and brought in Tim Shoveller as Ops Director.

 

[Newshound Mutt]

Avanti are absolutely awful

 

[Carlisle]

Strangely LNER seem to have retained more Virgin influence than Avanti, despite only being Virginised for a mere two years.

It was likely the cheaper option.
I’m surprised how extensive East Coast’s rebranding was given it was always known to be only an interim operator.

 

[AgentGemini]

Apparently Avanti have been rather topsy turvy with their staff and morale is plummeting. Might explain the service. Look at other franchises where the rot set in when new unscrupulous owners took over - London Midland becoming WMR under the infamous Abellio, or the lamented EMT now becoming EMR under (quelle surprise) Abellio.

 

[Bertie the bus]

They did. Think back to the late 1990s and 2000s, the Virgin brand bought a bit of glamour and image to the railway. I have (non railway enthusiast friends) who were really excited to travel on a Virgin Pendolino train. Had it been an Avanti Pendolino of a Horizon Trains Pendolino they wouldn't have seen it as anywhere near as glamorous.

Don't under estimate the power of a brand.

Virgin fans are always incredibly selective when it come to praising Virgin's achievements. Was the Virgin Cross Country franchise and Operation Princess competent and glamourous, or the problems that still exist to this day on the XC network due to Virgin's gross incompetence?

I think if you did really think back to the 1990s Virgin Trains were a national joke. They were regularly used by the media, comedians, etc as an example of everything that was bad about privatisation and things only started to improve when the WCML upgrade was completed, which was paid for by the taxpayer and executed by Railtrack/Network Rail.

 

[43096]

Virgin fans are always incredibly selective when it come to praising Virgin's achievements. Was the Virgin Cross Country franchise and Operation Princess competent and glamourous, or the problems that still exist to this day on the XC network due to Virgin's gross incompetence?

Not for nothing is it still referred to as “Operation Pumpkin”.

I think if you did really think back to the 1990s Virgin Trains were a national joke. They were regularly used by the media, comedians, etc as an example of everything that was bad about privatisation and things only started to improve when the WCML upgrade was completed, which was paid for by the taxpayer and executed by Railtrack/Network Rail.

This. Virgin were appalling to start with and it was only when “bus bandit” Brian Barrett was replaced by Chris Green that it improved.

 

[Davester50]

The Virgin brand peaked at Cool Britannia, the whole cheekiness a la the Spice Girls era, but they just turned old and stale, like a lecherous old man still going clubbing, trying to pull someone half their age.
Pre-tilting Virgin, the trains were woeful. GNER knocked them out of the park.

Not missed.

 

[Carlisle]

Was the Virgin Cross Country franchise and Operation Princess competent and glamourous,

No, it was disastrous but there weren’t the environmental concerns about running DMU’s under the wires or an off the shelf bi mode available, when the 220/1s were ordered.

 

[Speed43125]

There’s price rises as per inflation, and there’s the wholesale removal of advances by Avanti which is massively increasing prices for no reason.

And here I am right now on the 9M50 with a £10.55 Dunblane to Crewe advance single (1/3 off railcard in fairness).

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it was disastrous but there weren’t the environmental concerns about running DMU’s under the wires or an off the shelf bi mode available, when the 220/1s were ordered.

I would forgive them DMUs but not the capacity reduction.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I would forgive them DMUs but not the capacity reduction.

That was forced on them by government.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That was forced on them by government.

No, it wasn't. What they ordered at the start was their choice, and it was about 50% under capacity.

The Government refused to allow them to lengthen it later, but that does not excuse the initial poor judgement.

(The refused converted HSTs were irrelevant; those were for a new hourly Paddington-Brum service which never operated)