Was losing Stagecoach/Virgin bad for the railway?

[Agent_Squash]

Stagecoach went out with a bit of a bang with their legal action against the DfT - but over the years I certainly considered them a reliable operator.

I use Avanti regularly, and despite it being the same higher management, it feels like a completely different level of service - and not better for sure. Personally, I think it's a shame that they've gone so downhill but equally COVID has had its impact.

But the situation at SWR with the constant fleet plan reshuffle, and EMR being the way it was - was the loss of Stagecoach bad for the railway?

 

[gazzaa2]

I don't think Virgin's last years were great, maybe if you have a franchise too long you can get complacent. Problem is that WCML can be a nightmare when things go wrong and it's out the TOC's hands.

The bottom linen under Avanti is higher prices for a worse service. Their staffing levels are awful as well.

 

[fgwrich]

I don't think Virgin's last years were great, maybe if you have a franchise too long you can get complacent. Problem is that WCML can be a nightmare when things go wrong and it's out the TOC's hands.

A similar feeling from over here in SWR land to be honest. Initially I welcomed the First Group franchise as Stagecoach had become rather stagnant on SWT, with little innovation, higher fares and a roughly steady levels of service (though the infrastructure changes and failures of 2017 didn’t help including Waterloo) and First did a good job on the Western once they got their act together. But given everything that’s happened since, would I welcome Stagecoach back - Yes, with open arms. Anything to replace the mess we’ve been left with now.

 

[gazzaa2]

A similar feeling from over here in SWR land to be honest. Initially I welcomed the First Group franchise as Stagecoach had become rather stagnant on SWT, with little innovation, higher fares and a roughly steady levels of service (though the infrastructure changes and failures of 2017 didn’t help including Waterloo) and First did a good job on the Western once they got their act together. But given everything that’s happened since, would I welcome Stagecoach back - Yes, with open arms. Anything to replace the mess we’ve been left with now.

Better the devil you know. I would rather Virgin had stayed in the first place as they were still reasonably reliable but they were stagnant.

 

[yorksrob]

I generally found SWT and EMT to be good companies to travel with. EMT benefited from not having premature stock withdrawal decisions forced on them, compared to their successors.

I probably don't use the WCML enough to have a firm opinion either way, but friends who live in that neck of the woods say Virgin was better for customer service than Avanti.

 

[nw1]

I preferred SWT to SWR but this is partly coloured by the fact that SWR has been, throughout most of their lifetime, associated with Covid and post-Covid cuts - so not entirely their fault - while SWT were associated with a full, normal service throughout their lifetime.

I also liked the different liveries given to 444s and 450s under SWT, which gave the railway more character.

 

[takno]

Avanti are in a difficult situation. They weren't even out of the initial finding their feet period when Covid struck. Nothing has really worked right or been entirely in their control since.

Standard Premium is a good innovation, but the implementation has never been great, again partly because of Covid making the improved first class offering more difficult. The refurbishment will make a difference, but again it's not coming as early in the franchise as they might like.

I find LNER significantly more pleasant to travel on than Virgin East Coast however.

 

[Hadders]

Virgin were enerally a competent train operating company and did much to improve the image of the WCML and rail travel in general.

 

[M&NEJ]

Better the devil you know. I would rather Virgin had stayed in the first place as they were still reasonably reliable but they were stagnant.

As a regular user of the WCML before Covid I would tend to agree. I think the pandemic has changed the landscape at the moment and I'm sure we would be having gripes about Virgin rather than Avanti if the red team was still in play now.

I think Virgin would have come out of stagnation if awarded a new franchise term, particularly with the prospect of HS2 to come. But I think there are far greater dangers now in what HS2 will mean for the north end of the WCML!

 

[stj]

I find most things Virgin decline and disappear surprised the airline is still going.

 

[yorksrob]

I find most things Virgin decline and disappear surprised the airline is still going.

The cola is no more !

 

[Mikey C]

I don't miss some of the Virgin gimmicks like the talking toilets...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I don't miss some of the Virgin gimmicks like the talking toilets...

Yep. They quite possibly "jumped the shark" with that innovation.

 

[Gloster]

Whatever the railway considerations might be, anything that stops Richard Branson from taking over the whole world is a good thing.

 

[RailWonderer]

I don't miss some of the Virgin gimmicks like the talking toilets...

Although some relics of the Virgin era still remain like the tardis blue lights in the doorways and the 'hey good looking' on every toilet mirror frame. It gave some character that Avanti has taken away with their drab livery of dark green and gray, which shows they don't celebrate the fact they run the WCML like Virgin did.

Then there's the customer service element that VT were always way ahead on. Avanti lack any creativity like PR stunts to raise awareness to rail travel as a substitute to driving etc. although this isn't entirely their fault. When the DfT start to take control of the purse strings it will be increasingly difficult for Avanti to reach the heights Virgin did.

To the OP, yes it was bad. We need that innovative thinking on the railways.

 

[Carlisle]

Virgin were enerally a competent train operating company and did much to improve the image of the WCML and rail travel in general.

Did they? Most of the stations now being repainted by Avanti hadn’t been touched in years by Virgin & looked pretty shabby at best .

 

[zwk500]

Did they? Most of the stations now being repainted by Avanti hadn’t been touched in years by Virgin & looked pretty shabby at best .

Virgin were a fundamental part of the West Coast Modernisation, especially their marketing around the Pendolinos.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Did they? Most of the stations now being repainted by Avanti hadn’t been touched in years by Virgin & looked pretty shabby at best .

The new paint at Oxenholme is already peeling off!

The problem with the WCML franchise is it was left in limbo after the 2012 fiasco - how can anybody invest if they don’t know if they’ve got the franchise next year?

 

[Hadders]

Did they? Most of the stations now being repainted by Avanti hadn’t been touched in years by Virgin & looked pretty shabby at best .

They did. Think back to the late 1990s and 2000s, the Virgin brand bought a bit of glamour and image to the railway. I have (non railway enthusiast friends) who were really excited to travel on a Virgin Pendolino train. Had it been an Avanti Pendolino of a Horizon Trains Pendolino they wouldn't have seen it as anywhere near as glamorous.

Don't under estimate the power of a brand.

 

[yorksrob]

I seem to recall reading in the press write a few years ago that Virgin saw themselves as the train fleet, and rather like in the airline industry they saw the stations as being primarily someone else's responsibility, hence why the WCML hubs had a more run down look than other parts of the network in the early noughties.

That said, nowadays Crewe and Preston look smart enough, so I don't know when that changed.

 

[Carlisle]

Virgin were a fundamental part of the West Coast Modernisation, especially their marketing around the Pendolinos.

Yes they were, but wasn’t it long acknowledged the likes of GNER put far more effort into improving their stations, the likes of Crewe were an absolute shambles around the time the 390s were being introduced.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Virgin were a fundamental part of the West Coast Modernisation, especially their marketing around the Pendolinos.

Virgin were excellent at PR. They weren't that good at running a passenger friendly or reliable rail service. They were very good at telling people they were, but reality often didn't match up with the spin.

 

[LowLevel]

Did they? Most of the stations now being repainted by Avanti hadn’t been touched in years by Virgin & looked pretty shabby at best .

I agree - most of the Virgin stations looked very tired by the mid 2000s and were pretty much untouched since the mid to late 90s. They always did feel like the poor relation when it came to managing stations. Rusty old trolleys and stands everywhere, BR era signage and so on.

As for Stagecoach in general, my main experience was EMT. They had a nice image. The trains were usually at least fairly smart. I don't miss their approach to industrial relations, it's soured the first few years of the Abellio EMR trying to sort out various things that they did, often very cackhandedly with unforeseen consequences.

You could tell things were stagnating after 2015 when it moved to being a series of short direct awards though. There was, probably left over from the MML days, a big push towards good customer service and a lot of that started to drift in small but noticeable ways. Years ago I worked as station staff - if we weren't on the platforms at all times except when on a break or popping to get a drink you would receive a visit from the supervisor or manager to see what you were up to or where you were. That kind of focus seemed to drift latterly.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Virgin were excellent at PR. That weren't that good at running a passenger friendly or reliable rail service. They were very good at telling people they were, but reality often didn't match up with the spin.

I found using Virgin much better than using Avanti as a passenger.

 

[Runningaround]

Avanti have completley cocked up any benefits there were from advanced seat reservations. Full carriages reserved but nobody sitting in them as they travelled on the preferred train and full trains with available seating you couldn't buy and select as you need to reserve a seat to proceed to payment. They are preventing passengers buying tickets on train, how mad is that!!!
At least with Virgin even if you split your ticket you could play around with the seat selectors to have the same seat for the whole journey.

You do wonder why a they manage so well in Italy where each train has numerous options but get it so muddled up here. And for that matter other national rail companies that take over a BR Franchise.
Is it the complicated knotted system that means even experienced operators get tangled up in the mess .

 

[dk1]

I don’t think we’ll ever see another franchise with the vibrancy of Virgin Trains. Miss their style.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Virgin’s operation on the East Coast was much more of a mixed bag. There were a lot of duds there, not least the disastrous crewing arrangements that were in place for a period.

But it’s in part thanks to them that we got:
- A micro buffet and reliable catering on the 80x fleet
- Additional early/late services to York, Edinburgh and Stirling
- A pretty decent interior refresh to the HST/Mk4 stock
- Seatfrog encouraging leisure spend in First Class

The PR strategy always seemed to be loud, cheeky and industrious - there was always something cooking on gas, whether that was the Beam streaming service, carriage end displays, even getting reservation levels on station signage.

Yes they dropped some clangers, and no they weren’t GNER, but at times the Virgin brand brought much needed spritz to the railways. I really think you need that entrepreneurial spirit to promote InterCity services.

 

[Agent_Squash]

You hardly hear anything about onboard entertainment anymore on Avanti. BEAM, and it's advertising, was good for the railway - I can't even remember what the offer is on Avanti - but it isn't as simple as downloading BEAM and connecting to wifi on the train iirc.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The cola is no more !

Virgin Cola.

Or, as it was originally described on buffet counter menus, 'Virgin Coke' - until someone (I could guess) objected. And 'Coke' got crossed out in ball point and 'cola' scrawled alongside.

 

[yorksrob]

Virgin Cola.

Or, as it was originally described on buffet counter menus, 'Virgin Coke' - until someone (I could guess) objected. And 'Coke' got crossed out in ball point and 'cola' scrawled alongside.

Yes, had it given out on a few delayed trains back then !