Smart Motorways, is it time to end them?

[Bletchleyite]

I would say "wishing" does not equate to "have to". Nobody (except for an authorised emergency driver) has an abosolute right to create traffic hazards because they haven't left enough enough time for their journey.

Roads have to be designed based on what bad drivers will do, because there will always be bad drivers.

 

[AM9]

Roads have to be designed based on what bad drivers will do, because there will always be bad drivers.

Rules and the penalties for those transgressing them are designed to deal with bad drivers, which the proliferation of camera surveillance on motorways and other busy roads will become an increasingly key tool. Bad drivers will then either be persuaded to obey the law, or if they persist, - have the driving privilege removed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rules and the penalties for those transgressing them are designed to deal with bad drivers, which the proliferation of camera surveillance on motorways and other busy roads will become an increasingly key tool. Bad drivers will then either be persuaded to obey the law, or if they persist, - have the driving privilege removed.

Cameras are not very good at enforcing the sort of things we are discussing*. Indeed, the proliferation of reduced driving standards is partly because of reduced motorway policing.

In any case, passive safety is always better than active safety, i.e. design the road system so it's intuitive to use it in a safe way.

* Example: is someone tailgating, or did someone else just cut them up and they haven't had chance to react and drop back yet?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Wanting to do 70 is not wrong!!!

 

[py_megapixel]

Wanting to do 70 is not wrong!!!

But insisting on it when the traffic is moving considerably slower than that definitely is.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Wanting to do 70 is not wrong!!!

It certainly is if the Smart Motorway overhead gantries are displaying a variable speed limit of less than that, for example, 40 mph.

 

[VauxhallandI]

However the scenario I was talking about was neither of the two scenarios above.

Lane 1&2 empty and lanes 3&4 full, all sitting there like planks as if changing lane was something other people had to do.

 

[AM9]

However the scenario I was talking about was neither of the two scenarios above.

Lane 1&2 empty and lanes 3&4 full, all sitting there like planks as if changing lane was something other people had to do.

Then the fix for that is to reduce the overall speed limit to that which the rightmost one is actually running at, - there's no need for undertaking then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then the fix for that is to reduce the overall speed limit to that which the rightmost one is actually running at, - there's no need for undertaking then.

Undertaking is mostly* prevented by correct road positioning. If you don't practice correct road positioning, please remedy this, there really is no excuse whatsoever. Middle lane hogging is simply lazy and inconsiderate. Don't do it. That is all.

* Except a few nutters who don't leave proper spacing from the next vehicle and try to sneak through.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Then the fix for that is to reduce the overall speed limit to that which the rightmost one is actually running at, - there's no need for undertaking then.

Sorry I don’t get what you mean?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry I don’t get what you mean?

I think the suggestion was that if lanes 3 and 4 are full you could prevent "undertaking" by setting the variable speed limits to the speed those in the slower of those two lanes are doing rounded down to the nearest 10mph.

It's not however necessary to do this, as that's "traffic moving in queues", and when that is the case you are not expected to change lane to pass. However even better would be the Police coming along and booking the lot!

 

[VauxhallandI]

I think the suggestion was that if lanes 3 and 4 are full you could prevent "undertaking" by setting the variable speed limits to the speed those in the slower of those two lanes are doing rounded down to the nearest 10mph.

It's not however necessary to do this, as that's "traffic moving in queues", and when that is the case you are not expected to change lane to pass. However even better would be the Police coming along and booking the lot!

That level of micro managing I imagine wouldn’t work. The purpose is to utilise the space at the higher speed. They need loads of signs saying move left

 

[Bletchleyite]

That level of micro managing I imagine wouldn’t work. The purpose is to utilise the space at the higher speed. They need loads of signs saying move left

It could actually be useful to have the smart motorway system automatically put up the "move left" arrows on the rightmost lanes where this is happening.

 

[C96]

I think the way the m27 was completed was rubbish. No resurfacing of the road etc. Loads of existing lane markings still there. It’s a good job that no AI driven cars are allowed, although would like to see how they would manage it.

 

[AM9]

I think the suggestion was that if lanes 3 and 4 are full you could prevent "undertaking" by setting the variable speed limits to the speed those in the slower of those two lanes are doing rounded down to the nearest 10mph.

It's not however necessary to do this, as that's "traffic moving in queues", and when that is the case you are not expected to change lane to pass. However even better would be the Police coming along and booking the lot!

There is a general problem on motorways that moving to the right is assumed to 'get you there quicker'. This means that the outside lane tends to saturate first. The most efficient way for a multi-lane road is for all lanes to travel at approximately the same speed (with a practical exception of the inside lane on a 3 or 4-lane road to allow for slow vehicles and those using on and off slip roads). So if the outermost lane starts to slow, then reduce the speed limit of all lanes to that speed - bearing in mind that the speed limit is a maximum. That would be easy to achieve without human intervention especially in a variable speed limit section.
Eventually, drivers would realise that in heavy traffic, forcing their way into the outside lane most of the time isn't worth the effort.

 

[bramling]

I would say "wishing" does not equate to "have to". Nobody (except for an authorised emergency driver) has an abosolute right to create traffic hazards because they haven't left enough enough time for their journey.

I don’t really subscribe to this view. Wishing to drive at the speed limit when safe is entirely reasonable, just as (all other things being equal) we expect rail vehicles to be driven in that way. If people wish to drive lower than that, they shouldn’t reasonably expect to weave in and out on the whim whenever they do decide to overtake, it introduces hazards, wastes fuel, wastes capacity, and holds others up.

Making a move which causes another driver to stop or have to slow down is already frowned upon in both driving instruction and testing, and should be something which is more heavily penalised by law.

As usual, standards of driving are dire in this country (including some so-called professional drivers), and no one seriously wants to do anything about it. When one sees how regimented train driving is, the difference is immense.

 

[ainsworth74]

As usual, standards of driving are dire in this country (including some so-called professional drivers), and no one seriously wants to do anything about it.

If you think it's dire here I'd caution you against going abroad to most countries

(Which isn't to say there isn't room for improvement of course, just that we might not be quite as terrible as we think )

 

[bramling]

Undertaking is mostly* prevented by correct road positioning.

I don't really buy this. Take the A1(M) between Welwyn and Stevenage, which is a pretty notorious section of 2-lane motorway.

Going south, there's an incline just south of Stevenage which combined with being located just south of a junction, results in a lot of traffic bunching. Hang back a little to get a run up the incline, and you *will* be undertaken by some doltz who then cuts in front and messes up your attempt to maintain speed up the incline. Then, later on, there's always a fuss at the point where it goes from 2 to 3 lanes (why on earth the extra lane starts on the left side is beyond me), people dither at the point of choosing which lane to go in. Again, good practice to hang back just a bit which then allows a clean transition into the 3 lanes, but again you'll have some prat undertaking and then causing something in front to get stuck in the third lane blocking everything up.

Cameras aren't the answer to any of this, proper training, licensing, repeat assessment and targeted enforcement are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2022 ==

If you think it's dire here I'd caution you against going abroad to most countries

(Which isn't to say there isn't room for improvement of course, just that we might not be quite as terrible as we think )

We are worst in the London and home counties area, and a few other urban areas too. But drive somewhere like Mid or North Wales, or the North-East and the driving standard is pretty good.

If other countries are worse, I dread to think if they're worse than the London / south-east area!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2022 ==

There is a general problem on motorways that moving to the right is assumed to 'get you there quicker'. This means that the outside lane tends to saturate first. The most efficient way for a multi-lane road is for all lanes to travel at approximately the same speed (with a practical exception of the inside lane on a 3 or 4-lane road to allow for slow vehicles and those using on and off slip roads). So if the outermost lane starts to slow, then reduce the speed limit of all lanes to that speed - bearing in mind that the speed limit is a maximum. That would be easy to achieve without human intervention especially in a variable speed limit section.
Eventually, drivers would realise that in heavy traffic, forcing their way into the outside lane most of the time isn't worth the effort.

That would only really hold true if everyone was driving at the same speed. For as long as you have people fluttering along at lower speeds, or - worse - those who fail to be able to maintain any kind of constant speed, you're going to have people gravitating towards the rightmost lanes. This may not hold true on lighter used motorways, but for something like Hertfordshire to London on the A1, for most of the day if you want to do 70 mph you're going to be in the right-hand lane for the majority of the run. It simply isn't worth the hassle of keep moving in as you'll be doing it constantly. With good situational awareness this shouldn't need to be a problem, as if you're keeping awareness of what's going on behind then it's quite easy to move left if someone is approaching and wants to pass (though how many times do people make a thing of passing, and then cut in front - really don't get why people do this).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't really buy this. Take the A1(M) between Welwyn and Stevenage, which is a pretty notorious section of 2-lane motorway.

Going south, there's an incline just south of Stevenage which combined with being located just south of a junction, results in a lot of traffic bunching. Hang back a little to get a run up the incline, and you *will* be undertaken by some doltz who then cuts in front and messes up your attempt to maintain speed up the incline.

Eh?

What you describe has you in the right hand lane doing a lower speed than the vehicles in the left hand lane.

If this happens you must move left at the first opportunity.

You should not be in a lane other than Lane 1 unless you are actively in the process of overtaking a vehicle. As soon as you have finished this, including allowing a proper braking distance for both the overtaken vehicle and yourself, it is time to pull back in. If you decide to slow, for any reason at all, and as a result of this are no longer overtaking, pull left.

This is especially important on a two-lane road like the one you describe because by sitting there you cause an obstruction. It's not a fast lane and a slow lane. It's a driving lane and an overtaking lane.

 

[bramling]

Eh?

What you describe has you in the right hand lane doing a lower speed than the vehicles in the left hand lane.

Not at all. You'd still be well faster than the left-hand lane, just not right up the arse of the one in front.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyway, what modern car can't maintain speed up an incline if you drop a gear?

There is that conflict between those using cruise (who travel at a precisely unchanging speed) and those not (who vary a bit), though increasingly-common adaptive cruise removes that. My next car will definitely have it.

 

[Dai Corner]

Anyway, what modern car can't maintain speed up an incline if you drop a gear?

There is that conflict between those using cruise (who travel at a precisely unchanging speed) and those not (who vary a bit), though increasingly-common adaptive cruise removes that. My next car will definitely have it.

I was about to say that some drivers appear to set their cruise controls to the speed limit for their vehicle and weave between lanes to maintain that.

Personally I set the limiter to the appropriate speed and accelerate/ease off/brake as necessary

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was about to say that some drivers appear to set their cruise controls to the speed limit for their vehicle and weave between lanes to maintain that.

Personally I set the limiter to the appropriate speed and accelerate/ease off/brake as necessary

If it gets busy I switch to using the limiter rather than cruise in that way, but I can't wait to have adaptive cruise control which makes it that bit easier.

I generally set mine to either 68 or 72-73 (the latter being about an actual 70 in my car), because that creates a speed differential and thus avoids lorry-style long overtakes.

 

[DelW]

However, the M1 J10-13 is possibly one of the worst sections of road I've ever seen, with ridiculous road layouts and the hard shoulder/4th lane randomly switching back and forth erratically (what is the point in ALR through junctions when the lanes become the hard shoulder most of the time?) J13 and new J11A also have atrocious layouts.

I agree that this section has ended up very badly laid out, partly as a result of the extra junction having been inserted. There are I think four stretches of 3+1 dynamic hard shoulder, between stretches of all-4, meaning that when the hard shoulders aren't available, traffic is squeezed from four lanes into three anything up to four times in around 15 miles.
To make it worse, several of the 3+1 stretches are only around 3/4 mile long, and they start just beyond blind curves with (usually) no advance warning of whether the hard shoulder is in use or closed until almost at the merge point. Most also have slip roads feeding in just beforehand, meaning five lanes worth of traffic squeezing into three.
As a minimum, the two very short 3+1 sections should be eliminated urgently, since doing so is a relatively small task. At only 3/4 mile long, each one wouldn't need more than possibly one new refuge area added, and changes to signage and cameras.

 

[Bald Rick]

As usual, standards of driving are dire in this country (including some so-called professional drivers), and no one seriously wants to do anything about it. When one sees how regimented train driving is, the difference is immense.

If other countries are worse, I dread to think if they're worse than the London / south-east area!

In my experience of driving throughout the “western” world, the U.K. has the best standard of driving, and that includes London and the south east. New Zealand is next best, but then outside a couple of the cities there’s effectively no traffic.

Then, later on, there's always a fuss at the point where it goes from 2 to 3 lanes (why on earth the extra lane starts on the left side is beyond me), people dither at the point of choosing which lane to go in.

I had a genuine surprise there yesterday: someone in lane 1 of the two lane section actually moved over to lane 1 of the three lane section where it started. Can’t remember seeing that before!

 

[bramling]

In my experience of driving throughout the “western” world, the U.K. has the best standard of driving, and that includes London and the south east. New Zealand is next best, but then outside a couple of the cities there’s effectively no traffic.

I can only bow to others on this, but - seriously - if these countries are worse than us then the mind absolutely boggles.

I had a genuine surprise there yesterday: someone in lane 1 of the two lane section actually moved over to lane 1 of the three lane section where it started. Can’t remember seeing that before!

Miracles is miracles. Why on earth that location is laid out as it is I’ve no idea, but this is then compounded by people making a mess of things. I really can’t think of any reason why you’d want the third lane to start on the left, especially here having just descended a hill.

But, then, the northbound is just as bad since they re-did the layout. *Must* move to the middle *now*, on a steep rising gradient, even though the junction is still nearly 2 miles away.

 

[krus_aragon]

Anyway, what modern car can't maintain speed up an incline if you drop a gear?

With my last car, a 1.4l petrol Citroen C3, I'd have to fight to only lose 10mph when climbing on the A55 from Cors Ddyga towards Gaerwen, or going up Rhuallt hill. Fully laden with passengers, I'd expect to dip somewhere around 55-60mph.

Off the motorway network, the mountain passes of Snowdonia along the A470 were even harder work: going south along the Crimea pass towards Blaenau, I'd expect to drop to 40mph if I had any passengers. Coming northbound towards Dolgellau up Bwlch yr Oerddrws, I was once a passenger in a fully loaded 507(?) hire car which barely dragged itself up in the end: the driver was worried he'd have to downshift out of 2nd gear to make it to the top!

My current car (1.7 Diesel Zafira) is far keener on hills, and impressed me by grunting up the Crimea without dropping below 55 (no passengers). I haven't had the occasion to go south of Dolgellau with it yet, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With my last car, a 1.4l petrol Citroen C3, I'd have to fight to only lose 10mph when climbing on the A55 from Cors Ddyga towards Gaerwen, or going up Rhuallt hill. Fully laden with passengers, I'd expect to dip somewhere around 55-60mph.

Even if you dropped a gear? That's seriously underpowered if so (or faulty, as a 1.4 is a fairly large petrol engine for a small car like a C3). Any modern car that can't maintain 70 throughout the motorway and main A-road network with 4 people in it is frankly an unfit-for-purpose heap of junk.

Off the motorway network, the mountain passes of Snowdonia along the A470 were even harder work: going south along the Crimea pass towards Blaenau, I'd expect to drop to 40mph if I had any passengers.

I've not driven over that, only gone by bus, but I don't recall it being that steep, so any car having that much trouble with it again is seriously underpowered. Buses do typically have trouble with it, but most UK buses are underpowered (the Swiss have no such problems).

If you know you drive an underpowered car, you need to ensure you're in the left lane if a hill you believe you'll have trouble with is approaching, so as not to cause an obstruction to those with more appropriate vehicles.

(Don't say "but pollution" - ragging an underpowered car to death typically is worse in this regard than driving one that has enough grunt to move itself in a more leisurely manner)

 

[ABB125]

(Don't say "but pollution" - ragging an underpowered car to death typically is worse in this regard than driving one that has enough grunt to move itself in a more leisurely manner)

That's as may be, but one of those options is far more entertaining than the other...

 

[PeterC]

There is a general problem on motorways that moving to the right is assumed to 'get you there quicker'. This means that the outside lane tends to saturate first. The most efficient way for a multi-lane road is for all lanes to travel at approximately the same speed (with a practical exception of the inside lane on a 3 or 4-lane road to allow for slow vehicles and those using on and off slip roads). So if the outermost lane starts to slow, then reduce the speed limit of all lanes to that speed - bearing in mind that the speed limit is a maximum. That would be easy to achieve without human intervention especially in a variable speed limit section.
Eventually, drivers would realise that in heavy traffic, forcing their way into the outside lane most of the time isn't worth the effort.

In the specific example you are referring to lanes 3 and 4 diverge from lanes 1 and 2 and, due to the nature of the road ahead may be running slower. In busy traffic I would always position myself in the correct lane for J1 well in advance, possibly even before J2 rather than risk forcing my way into closely spaced traffic at the last minute.