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Smart Motorways, is it time to end them?

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AM9

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That's because that bit is dynamic hard shoulder (ie: the worst of both worlds). The hard shoulder can only be used as a running lane if the speed limit is 60mph or less.
Which is an acknowledgement that a three lane motorway with a hard shoulder is safer than a four lane road without. So, safety is compromised in the interests of those who want one extra lane of traffic.
Maybe all motorways should have a permanent 60 mph maximum.
 
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Bald Rick

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I hate smart motorways and don't feel safe on them. Given many drivers ignore the dynamic speed limits, it can feel like you're going to be rear ended if you slow to the sometimes stupidly slow limits. There's also the problem of getting trapped in a "fast" lane doing bang on the limit after a limit reduction, with everyone undertaking and not letting you move into lanes to the left despite indicating. When there is a speed limit enforced by cameras on a motorway or other high quality dual carriageway, it sometimes encourages traffic in multiple lanes to be driving at very similar speeds and do lots of slow undertakes, spending lots of time in your left mirror blind spot. These issues seem to happen all the time to me on the southern M25.

While I quite agree with the point and I've witnessed similar issues myself, it also strikes me that the root cause of these problems is actually other people's bad driving, and not the dynamic traffic management itself. Obviously that's not much consolation to you, or to anyone trying to mitigate risk arising from the irresponsible driving of others.

Completely agree @Starmill.

I find SMART motorways absolutely fine. If you are in an outside lane ‘trapped’ doing the limit with people undertaking then I’m afraid it’s poor situational awareness and poor lane discipline.

What I find, more than anything, is that the standard of lane discipline on 4 Lane motorways is generally poor, regardless of whether they are SMART or not. Coming down the M40 the other day and everyone was driving well, then you get to Junction 3 and it’s like everyone thinks it’s illegal to use Lane 1.
 

Starmill

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I really wish some people didn't drive as if moving to the left was in some way an act of defeat or submission to other drivers. It just isn't that difficult to move left and then move right again later on if you need to. Or is there also an element of laziness?
 

PeterC

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What I find, more than anything, is that the standard of lane discipline on 4 Lane motorways is generally poor, regardless of whether they are SMART or not. Coming down the M40 the other day and everyone was driving well, then you get to Junction 3 and it’s like everyone thinks it’s illegal to use Lane 1.
I assume you mean eastbound.

Not everybody will be aware that it is a lane gain rather than an acceleration lane.
Another reason is that you will have to weave across 2 very busy lanes from lane 1 if you don't want the M25 as 2 lanes drop at J1.
 

ABB125

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Not everybody will be aware that it is a lane gain rather than an acceleration lane.
That is a good point. However, there are helpful signs at every motorway junction informing drivers of the road layout after the junction. Such as this one at the junction in question:

I wouldn't necessarily expect the average driver to know this though, as even if they've bothered to read the relevant section of the Highway Code, it doesn't mention anything about lane gains/drops.
Another reason is that you will have to weave across 2 very busy lanes from lane 1 if you don't want the M25 as 2 lanes drop at J1.
Yes, but in theory you should do that in the vicinity of the overhead gantry a mile before the lane drop. Doing so beforehand is unnecessary. In practise, anything can happen, especially if the traffic is heavy!
 

zwk500

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I really wish some people didn't drive as if moving to the left was in some way an act of defeat or submission to other drivers. It just isn't that difficult to move left and then move right again later on if you need to. Or is there also an element of laziness?
I think laziness/on autopilot is the biggest part of it, given how surprised drivers seem to be when another car appears in the lane in front of them.
 

VauxhallandI

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Completely agree @Starmill.

I find SMART motorways absolutely fine. If you are in an outside lane ‘trapped’ doing the limit with people undertaking then I’m afraid it’s poor situational awareness and poor lane discipline.

What I find, more than anything, is that the standard of lane discipline on 4 Lane motorways is generally poor, regardless of whether they are SMART or not. Coming down the M40 the other day and everyone was driving well, then you get to Junction 3 and it’s like everyone thinks it’s illegal to use Lane 1.
100% agree. Often lane 1&2 can be completely empty whilst 3&4 are full.

Drives me insane!
 

LSWR Cavalier

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I thought you were to use the first, nearside, lane wherever possible. I always did.

Is undertaking legally allowed on 'smart' motorways?
 

Mcr Warrior

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Is undertaking legally allowed on 'smart' motorways?
In certain, limited circumstances, believe that undertaking on motorways is sometimes permitted.

For example, on a congested motorway, if there are "stay in lane" signs, and the traffic in an outer lane is slower moving.

Might also be permitted on stretches of motorway where average speed limit cameras are in operation.

But generally, no. And no weaving in and out of lanes.
 

zwk500

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I thought you were to use the first, nearside, lane wherever possible. I always did.

Is undertaking legally allowed on 'smart' motorways?
Is undertaking illegal normally? Or is it just against the Highway code, and therefore undertaking would be an example of dangerous driving.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Is undertaking illegal normally? Or is it just against the Highway code, and therefore undertaking would be an example of dangerous driving.
Not strictly illegal, I believe, but strongly discouraged in the Highway Code, except as already mentioned above.

If you do get caught undertaking inappropriately, it will probably be a fixed penalty notice (£100?) and three points on your licence, either for careless driving or driving without due care and attention, but the actual charge faced and the penalty will depend on the exact circumstances.
 

VauxhallandI

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Not strictly illegal, I believe, but strongly discouraged in the Highway Code, except as already mentioned above.

If you do get caught undertaking inappropriately, it will probably be a fixed penalty notice (£100?) and three points on your licence, either for careless driving or driving without due care and attention, but the actual charge faced and the penalty will depend on the exact circumstances.
It would be an interesting case though.

Surely in the same incident the 30 odd drivers sitting in lane 3&4 should also be penalised?
 

Mcr Warrior

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It would be an interesting case though.

Surely in the same incident the 30 odd drivers sitting in lane 3&4 should also be penalised?
Depends on the circumstances. Who's to say that there might not just have been a breakdown in the outside lane during a typical "rush hour", as one possible example.
 

VauxhallandI

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Depends on the circumstances. Who's to say that there might not just have been a breakdown in the outside lane during a typical "rush hour", as one possible example.
It happens to me multiple times on a 200 mile journey and there are no incidents.

what’s even worse is that they aren’t even doing 70 most of the time either.
 

Mcr Warrior

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It happens to me multiple times on a 200 mile journey and there are no incidents.

what’s even worse is that they aren’t even doing 70 most of the time either.
That sounds like the scenario when a section of motorway is starting to become over capacity vehicles-wise, maybe one tail-gating person applies their brakes, and everyone else behind does so also, and so everything temporarily grinds to a halt. And yes, often happens at relatively low motorway running speeds.

Think they're referred to as "phantom traffic jams" and it remains to be seen whether SMART motorways will actually do anything positive to remedy this phenomenon.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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If undertaking is illegal, or only discouraged by the highway code, I will not do it!

I think the rules are too complicated, legislators keep changing and adding to them without ensuring that people know them. When I take up driving again I plan to get a copy of the HC and learn the rules that have changed in the meantime.
 

Mcr Warrior

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If undertaking is illegal, or only discouraged by the highway code, I will not do it!
Sometimes you have little choice. If you're in the inside lane, you're not necessarily going to stop (and so not undertake) just because the traffic on a busy motorway has temporarily come to a complete halt in the far outside lane.
 

zwk500

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If undertaking is illegal, or only discouraged by the highway code, I will not do it!
Good, this is the point of the rule!
I think the rules are too complicated, legislators keep changing and adding to them without ensuring that people know them. When I take up driving again I plan to get a copy of the HC and learn the rules that have changed in the meantime.
Technically, if you hold a driving license you agree to review the Highway Code regularly (at least once a year?) and keep yourself up to date. I certainly can't claim to have honoured this, and I'm willing to be the overwhelming majority of other drivers haven't done so either.
 

VauxhallandI

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That sounds like the scenario when a section of motorway is starting to become over capacity vehicles-wise, maybe one tail-gating person applies their brakes, and everyone else behind does so also, and so everything temporarily grinds to a halt. And yes, often happens at relatively low motorway running speeds.

Think they're referred to as "phantom traffic jams" and it remains to be seen whether SMART motorways will actually do anything positive to remedy this phenomenon.
No it’s because people are terrible drivers and won’t move left. A mile of empty carriageways is all too often. I know phantom jams but should only be classified as such if all carriageways are full

So many people haven’t a clue, there has to be motorway lessons introduced to the driving test. It’s crazy it hasn’t been introduced
 

PeterY

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I thought you were to use the first, nearside, lane wherever possible. I always did.

Is undertaking legally allowed on 'smart' motorways?
IMO undertaking has to be one of the most dangerous things on a motorway. I rarely drive on them but if going back into lanes 1 or 2 from lane 3 I need my wits about me because of undertaking.
 

VauxhallandI

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IMO undertaking has to be one of the most dangerous things on a motorway. I rarely drive on them but if going back into lanes 1 or 2 from lane 3 I need my wits about me because of undertaking.
Which means there is every chance you or whoever you were passing were in the wrong lane.

Undertaking wouldn’t happen if Lane discipline was correct.

It is the consequence not the cause in most cases.

One should check the mirrors on all manoeuvres
 

PeterY

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One should check the mirrors on all manoeuvres
I didn't think all cars came with mirrors ( just like indicators). :'( :'( :'( :'( I'm old fashioned and I'm always looking in my mirrors and very wary of blind spots. :D
 

VauxhallandI

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I didn't think all cars came with mirrors ( just like indicators). :'( :'( :'( :'( I'm old fashioned and I'm always looking in my mirrors and very wary of blind spots. :D
Ah yes but what you’ve got to understand is that some cars are so expensive the owners could afford the indicator option
 

London Trains

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The biggest issue with safety is not the idea of HSR (hard shoulder running) or ALR (all lane running), but the actual implementation.

M42 J3A-7 (the first HSR section to be built) works well, the road layout is good and easy to understand, and the hard shoulder is used when needed. I wouldn't change this as it is actually very useful and easy to understand.

However, the M1 J10-13 is possibly one of the worst sections of road I've ever seen, with ridiculous road layouts and the hard shoulder/4th lane randomly switching back and forth erratically (what is the point in ALR through junctions when the lanes become the hard shoulder most of the time?) J13 and new J11A also have atrocious layouts.

This is contrasted with J6A-10, which is possibly one of the best sections of motorway, with a full 4 lanes and a continuous hard shoulder (to the point of needlessly rebuilding bridges for a hard shoulder when upgraded to 4 lanes), and no lane drops unless traffic levels warrant it (M25 junction).

As much as ALR is unsafe, this section is so much more unsafe and should be quickly fixed in the short term by converting it to ALR. Fix the unnecessary lane drop through J13 (between the HSR and new ALR schemes) while at it and this will mean there is a full 4 lanes without any lane drops between the M25 and M6, and this would mean all 4 lanes could be used properly.
 

Bald Rick

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IMO undertaking has to be one of the most dangerous things on a motorway. I rarely drive on them but if going back into lanes 1 or 2 from lane 3 I need my wits about me because of undertaking.

dont ever drive on a US Freeway or Interstate then.

the other day I managed to drive on the M40 from J3 to the M25 entirely in Lane 1, and I reckon I undertook about 200 cars in lanes 3 and 4 (with rather fewer in lane 2).

All entirely legal. And not remotely dangerous.
 

VauxhallandI

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dont ever drive on a US Freeway or Interstate then.

the other day I managed to drive on the M40 from J3 to the M25 entirely in Lane 1, and I reckon I undertook about 200 cars in lanes 3 and 4 (with rather fewer in lane 2).

All entirely legal. And not remotely dangerous.
Indeed otherwise you have to join the morons sitting in the outside!
 

dakta

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If all lanes are going to the same place (ie not approaching any kind of motorway interchange or junction) someone is trundling along on a lane right of myself at less than the speed limit or my cruising speed and there's nothing in front of me I'll just cruise past on their left.

If there's a fault with it then as far as I'm concerned it's theirs, shouldn't be there for an 'undertake' to take place. If a motorway allows for 70mph i generally sit on cruise control or thereabouts.

It has occurred to me that true driving might be a bit lost on some in the sense that 'how our position and actions impact others' doesn't seem to factor in the thought process of a lot of drivers, whilst they seem totally aware if everything that's 'in front that they might need to react to' they seem oblivious of all else, including their impact on others. I beleive this because if I'm not overtaking anything, I'm on the right I know someones drawing close from behind on the left I just can't do it, it feels wrong so I pull over. Sometimes they're speeding sometimes im just cruising a bit slower but either way you feel like an obstruction. If others dont feel this its because its completely off their radar.
 
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Bletchleyite

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dont ever drive on a US Freeway or Interstate then.

the other day I managed to drive on the M40 from J3 to the M25 entirely in Lane 1, and I reckon I undertook about 200 cars in lanes 3 and 4 (with rather fewer in lane 2).

All entirely legal. And not remotely dangerous.

It is more dangerous where it is not permitted as people will not expect it. However, not having a "move left" policy still adds general risk because those wishing to go faster have to weave in and out.
 

AM9

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It is more dangerous where it is not permitted as people will not expect it. However, not having a "move left" policy still adds general risk because those wishing to go faster have to weave in and out.
I would say "wishing" does not equate to "have to". Nobody (except for an authorised emergency driver) has an abosolute right to create traffic hazards because they haven't left enough enough time for their journey.
 
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