Yes. When I lived in Oxfordshire and regularly travelled on Chiltern's Class 165s it was normal to use the middle seats. Of course there are some people who are wider than most who may find that difficult, but the majority will sit in a centre seat in preference to standing unless their journey is very short. The trains that preceded the 165s mostly had 2 + 3 seating and nobody made a fuss about it; similarly with 4 SUBs, 4EPBs and 4VEPs.
They've reported it before, while they probably could given how late the units are, I doubt they will now Alstom are improving the situation.
In any case I see no way the Treasury would authorise a replacement order of new stock. SWR would simply have to life extend its 455s and potentially source other suitable stock coming off lease, eg the Southern 455s.
There are many issues. One of which is most definitely the cab.
There was a recent inspection/visit from SWR.and union people. Horrendous was the opinion of the "finished" train. Still riddled with faults, mostly software but many physical issues too.
"If" SWR took on the Southern 455's, wouldn't this cause issues with yet another micro-fleet in terms of diagramming/maintenance etc? I know it's only a few but surely it would make sense to get their own stored 455's back into use
It would - it has to be remembered that, not only are the Southern 455s still traditional DC tractioned units (and more expensive to maintain and operate) but also incompatible with the SWR 455s due to different PA and Passcom systems. Any units transferring over from Selhurst to Wimbledon would need the same modifications that the 456s had when they transferred across in 2014.
Yes, it would, but will SWR have enough rolling stock to cope with future demand? Having lost 30 707s and 24 456s surely not, even if the Class 458 programme is cancelled.
One thing I would say about the claims that 707s are being ordered, I haven't seen the PIN (Prior Information Notice), ITT (Invitation to Tender) or the tender award announcement for this very large rolling stock order.
Is there a way to go to the second place runner up without going through another tender?
SWR as a private company can directly award an order without any tendering exercise - indeed I seem to recall that South West Trains did exactly that when it came to getting the 707s. The only TOCs subject to competitive tendering rules are LNER, Northern, Southeastern, TFW and ScotRail.
It's the Treasury's money. SWR is barely a private company (and is actually classified as public sector by the ONS). It merely get a management fee for doing what it's told. There is absolutely no way it can just go and buy what it wants without tendering.
Yes they can if there are extenuating circumstances. During the pandemic there were plenty of contracts placed without going through the tendering process. Likewise, what is a direct award contract to a TOC?
And I'm sure that assuming that DCO would be the proposed method of operation there would suddenly be issues with the 707s as well...
Right, so the Treasury will let SWR spend public money on new rolling stock because the rolling stock still currently in build can't be introduced due to industrial relations problems specific to SWR.
You are assuming that the 701s are fit for service other than just the industrial relation issues. We don’t know what the contract terms are - there may be a termination clause for non-delivery. In which case no one is paying Alstom.
But they would still have to post a notice in the public realm to do that, as they do when placing a direct franchise award.
Exactly. There are still rules to be followed.
That's assuming that Siemens did come second (or even bid) and their price remains unchanged five years later. Unlikely I'd think.
The thing is, of all the South East commuter networks, it is probably the SW where commuters are most likely to be able to work from home (hence the huge collapse in passenger numbers into Waterloo) and therefore least likely to have any significant bounce back of commuting. It may be that DfT/Treasury have already written off any attempt to woo commuters into Waterloo back into the office and focus on cuts instead. If the claims are true that it is industrial relations that are preventing the 701s entering service I simply cannot see the DfT/Treasury being in any way sympathetic to further investment in SWR, preferring to let the network rot instead and blaming incompetent management and intransigent unions for it all.
Has any train ever entered service completely fault-free? There surely comes a point where you just have to bite the bullet. Think of the 458s for example.
Which were at one point 'returned' to the builder
And hastily brought back when SWT decided they were brilliant trains after all (nothing to do with the ultra-cheap lease offered to take them back of course...).
I think a lot of work had been done to them to improve the reliability, a cheap lease is probably what incentivised SWT over just ordering more 450s (not difficult or too expensive, the 350/2s were ordered at a similar time).
It was because Porterbrook made it worth SWT's while in its franchise bid to dump the 442s and bring the 458s back on an ultra-cheap lease because the units had nowhere else to go. I can assure you that were initially very poor when they returned - we had over six months of hellish service on the Reading line with failed trains, cancellations and short formations. It was only subsequently that the very successful efforts were made to get the the units up to scratch - because something had to be done.
I suppose they can, but if SWR formally accept the trains they will have to start paying for them.
