Was losing Stagecoach/Virgin bad for the railway?

[gordonthemoron]

At least with Virgin, you could get first class between Milton Keynes and Euston, it’s very difficult if not impossible to do that with Avanti in either first or standard premium, although I haven’t tried paying on the train

 

[Merle Haggard]

At least with Virgin, you could get first class between Milton Keynes and Euston, it’s very difficult if not impossible to do that with Avanti in either first or standard premium, although I haven’t tried paying on the train

N.R.E.S. for a Northampton - Euston journey, shows some as faster by changing on to Avant at Milton Keynesi, and seems to happily give first class fares for the journey.

However, tomorrow on the 09.56, the fare is £84.90...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think Virgin's last years were great, maybe if you have a franchise too long you can get complacent. Problem is that WCML can be a nightmare when things go wrong and it's out the TOC's hands.
The bottom linen under Avanti is higher prices for a worse service. Their staffing levels are awful as well.

Virgin on ICWC were being hauled in by the DfT almost from the start, certainly after about 2008 and the VHF timetable.
By then almost all the other franchises were into micro-management, and the DfT wanted the same for Virgin.
(Not to forget that the initial ICWC franchise failed in the aftermath of the Railtrack collapse, and was only reconstituted on different terms several years later).

The DfT rejected all Virgin's proposals to expand the fleet, eventually doing its own direct deal with Alstom for 104 vehicles (with Virgin appointed as project PM).
Virgin's 15-year franchise expired in 2012 and its replacement was bungled by the DfT, but instead of giving Virgin a decent franchise period for expansion, they were hobbled by a succession of 2-year do-nothing direct awards.

By the time of the 2018 re-franchising, Stagecoach had taken control and they lost the bid to First/Trenitalia (Avanti).
By then I think Virgin (Branson) was fed up with DfT shackles and was happy to throw the towel in.
Stagecoach were unable to build on the success of the prior franchises (ICWC, SWT), and the VTEC (ICEC) failure was just a rehearsal for what happened later at ICWC.

I find it amusing that Virgin's bold red/white branding lives on (via VTEC) with LNER, while its trademark Pendolinos have been made invisible and anonymous by Avanti.
Avanti still has to show what it can do with its new 80x fleet, and whether it can match the performance of the existing (tilting) stock.
Virgin also initially took on the rest of the industry by the horns (notably Railtrack and the SRA), unlike most other franchisees.

 

[DarloRich]

Was losing Stagecoach/Virgin bad for the railway?

No: the trains and service are still the same (covid allowing). It is still the same journey time from MK to Euston or Brum or Mancheste or Glasgow. The fares, without a railcard, seem pretty similar (allowing for yearly rises) and the service seems as reliable mechanically as it was.

There do seem to be staff issues at weekends but i am not sure that can be laid entirely at the door of avanti

No issue from me. Never got why Virgin had/has so many fan boys

 

[Agent_Squash]

The fares, without a railcard, seem pretty similar (allowing for yearly rises)

I used to be able to get to London for £20 on a Virgin offer. I now have to pay at least triple that as there are no advances - which means I don’t travel.

While the Virgin anytime’s were (and still are under Avanti) ridiculous, the advances were really good and those going is making intercity travel on the West Coast less attractive.

 

[DarloRich]

I used to be able to get to London for £20 on a Virgin offer. I now have to pay at least triple that as there are no advances - which means I don’t travel.

While the Virgin anytime’s were (and still are under Avanti) ridiculous, the advances were really good and those going is making intercity travel on the West Coast less attractive.

No issues for me. Fares about the same as always have been but then we have some competetion between london and Brum/crewe

Also the fares to, say, Manchester/glasgow dont feel any greater price than under Virgin.

 

[philosopher]

No issues for me. Fares about the same as always have been but then we have some competetion between london and Brum/crewe

Also the fares to, say, Manchester/glasgow dont feel any greater price than under Virgin.

During Virgin’s days, advance fares between London and Birmingham could often be found for £10 or even £7.50. Now £17.40 seems to be the minimum but in practice I find it hard to find those costing less than £20.

 

[DarloRich]

During Virgin’s days, advance fares between London and Birmingham could often be found for £10 or even £7.50. Now £17.40 seems to be the minimum but in practice I find it hard to find those costing less than £20.

Ok. £20 still seems a reasonable price for that journey to me! How much is LNWR for the same journey?


The prices I pay without a railcard and not booking 17 years in advance for the journeys i make feel about the same price.

Btw: The railway world has changed since the wonderful virgin left us. Increased fares are just the start.

 

[[.n]]

I regret that Stagecoach no longer run SWT - SWR has not been a better replacement

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Most forumers know I admire Virgin as a brand, beyond just the railway operations, and therefore may assume me to write a rose-tinted view, but here is my 100% honest thoughts:

Virgin were a “fun” brand which was unique - although in their last few years they clutched at straws a bit, for example, the original “please do not flush hopes, dreams or goldfish” voice message in the toilet was funny but there was no need to flog the same horse and then introduce the celebrity talking toilets, or “Hi I’m the toilet,” - this matched Virgin’s brand identity which was already well established and successful on the likes of their Atlantic airline and others, and therefore it worked. As a result, Avanti continuing this “fun” persona just looks cringey and silly. It works for Virgin but no one else.

Virgin Trains East Coast was largely unchanged by LNER but if there’s one thing I’ve noticed, it’s the attitude of on-train staff, who seem to have become increasingly arrogant under LNER compared to how they were. Many others agree. I have no idea why. Perhaps they had a disproportionate morale boost from the rather underwhelming promotion of the new brand.

Avanti West Coast have completely stitched first class passengers up since taking over from Virgin Trains, firstly by vegetarianising all hot dinner options and getting rid of the classier breakfast choices such as Eggs Benedict, but far more importantly by reducing capacity from 3.5 carriages on 11 cars to 1.5 or even JUST 0.5 on some trains - when it was already very full. I do not pay first class fares to sit in a carriage considerably busier than the rest of the train. Standard Premium is now an option, but quite frankly, who cares? It costs £30 for most journeys, and until last year, a Seatfrog upgrade would get me upgraded from London to Glasgow for £12 and would include the full service.

Where they have improved on Virgin Trains is refurbishing the Voyagers and now the Pendolinos, and introducing more electric or bi-mode trains to replace the diesels. However, other things they promised were direct trains to Walsall and Llandudno, and these have quietly died, most likely as always down to the easy excuse of COVID.

Where LNER and Avanti fail most, in my opinion, is where they try and be just like Virgin. Virgin is a well-known brand across several industries, and therefore they stand out. When the new companies try and replicate Virgin’s unique and quirky points, it looks a bit cringey and desperate.

 

[antharro]

I agree with what others have said about SWT. The different liveries made the railway an interesting place, and they generally took care of their fleet (458 toilets and suspension excepted!). At the SWT era they did start to lose the plot a little and non-essential maintenance started to slip - the 444s in particular were looking particularly tatty. SWR were a refreshing change at first but actions speak louder than words and they just seem to want to make everything bland as possible. Livery, interior, downgrading of the 444 first class, etc.

Edited to ad: I was particularly annoyed with SWT about the BS they spun at the time they withdrew the 442s. A lot of lies and spin to cover up that decision which IIRC were debunked on various forums at the time, including this one. Apart from that and the 458s, I was generally happy with them.

As for Virgin, I barely used them but they seemed to have the PR side pretty well polished up. I don't think I ever had any problems when I was on their services. I did use their app for booking tickets for a while as it seemed to be one of the better ones out there (and way ahead of what SWR had at the time). From a cosmetic viewpoint only, they did at least try to make things a bit better.

 

[thenorthern]

As others have said towards the end Virgin Trains became a bit dated and a bit nothing special. Back in the late 1990s and early 00s they were all over the place and regularly in the News. I remember them even being featured in the Beano as tilting trains were seen as the future. The failure of Virgin Trains East Coast didn't help as for years Branson would say that Virgin wouldn't have defaulted like GNER and NXEC did and he would run it better, in the end he didn't.

The Virgin Brand though has somewhat been tarnished with things like the tax status of Virgin and Richard Branson, Virgin Care taking NHS services, the Virgin Atlantic asking for money during the pandemic, the failure of Virgin Galactic and others. For many years Sir Richard Branson was the lovable billionaire who was very popular and was only seen to do good things but he seems to have lost that sparkle. Elon Musk seems to be going a very similar way.

 

[FenMan]

After a "troubled" beginning to the SWT franchise when Stagecoach, rather unwisely, got rid of a load of drivers, and (surprise!) found they couldn't run trains without them, SWT were okay, but the stunts they pulled on off-peak ticket pricing linger on today.

But we are talking about Stagecoach, not SWT. Stagecoach's entire business model has been to build local monopolies to leech as much subsidy as possible from central and local government so their owners could enjoy the high life in their castles at taxpayers' expense. If that's not enough, then look at the numerous examples of their bully-boy tactics towards competitors and, worse, local authorities who pushed back against their money-grabbing (Google is your friend). Some may say that's how "free enterprise" works. More like robber barons in my opinion.

 

[riceuten]

Virgin started really, really badly. Most people who sang their praises before the Pendolinos came had never actually taken their trains. Lots of people sing the praises of Branson, but they don't realise just how many of his businesses go bump, or are effectively just a licensing of his name (Hello Virgin East Coast). Virgin West Coast made lots of money running 2/3rds empty trains with lots of first class, expense accounting passengers.

 

[Mikey C]

VTWC were awful before the Pendolinos entered service. Yes the Mk 2s were old, but so excuse for the Mk 3s which have enjoyed another 15/20 years service elsewhere

I did like their website, being able to choose your seat was a useful innovation even if it was only necessary to avoid sitting next to a wall...

I did like that Virgin tried to actually run a distinct service rather than just do the contractual minimum like a tendered bus service.

 

[dosxuk]

Think back to the late 1990s and 2000s, the Virgin brand bought a bit of glamour and image to the railway.

Do people actually find Virgin a glamorous brand then? I've never got it myself - they've always seemed the cheap and cheerful offering, not charging as much as the leaders, and providing an inferior product, but backing that up with an excellent marketing department and dragging cheeky multi-millionaire Branson out whenever things needed a boost. The entire brand seems, to me, to be based around the British culture of supporting the underdog - something which doesn't really work when you have a monopoly on providing something...

 

[Mikey C]

Do people actually find Virgin a glamorous brand then? I've never got it myself - they've always seemed the cheap and cheerful offering, not charging as much as the leaders, and providing an inferior product, but backing that up with an excellent marketing department and dragging cheeky multi-millionaire Branson out whenever things needed a boost. The entire brand seems, to me, to be based around the British culture of supporting the underdog - something which doesn't really work when you have a monopoly on providing something...

It didn't work either when people saw Branson as a 50 or 60 something fat cat as well, rather than the younger rebel

 

[krus_aragon]

Where they have improved on Virgin Trains is refurbishing the Voyagers and now the Pendolinos, and introducing more electric or bi-mode trains to replace the diesels. However, other things they promised were direct trains to Walsall and Llandudno, and these have quietly died, most likely as always down to the easy excuse of COVID.

It's worth bearing in mind that Virgin themselves provided a daily service to Llandudno between 2004 and 2008.

 

[Hadders]

Do people actually find Virgin a glamorous brand then?

Absolutely, especially back then.

You might not have found them glamorous but the sort of people who are active on this forum aren’t really their target audience.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Virgin were excellent at PR. They weren't that good at running a passenger friendly or reliable rail service. They were very good at telling people they were, but reality often didn't match up with the spin.

That's also a very good description of Virgin Media which was once my ISP but now I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stagecoach were competent and realistic, and the Virgin-Stagecoach WCML operation was pretty decent.

Avanti West Coast is utter, utter dross. Just poorly-run in just about every way, coupled with a laughably amateur brand.

So yes, I miss Virgin. I wouldn't if Avanti West Coast was any good, but it's not. It's FirstGroup through and through - some decent ideas but terrible implementation.

 

[nlogax]

SWR and Avanti are.. fine. So far they're nothing special, nothing too far removed from their predecessors. Other than Avanti's Standard Premium the only vaguely tangible change is a change to duller paint jobs. Maybe give them a little while longer in the post-pandemic period to figure out what they're really about and potentially more strident opinions could be forthcoming.

 

[ainsworth74]

I can only really speak to Virgin Trains East Coast as I only used Virgin Trains West Coast, EMT and SWT intermittently.

My opinion of VTEC is that they started fairly poorly and got worse as time went on. They had plenty of razzmatazz and puffy PR pieces but in terms of actual delivery they were terrible. They took an excellent rewards scheme and replaced it with Nectar. They inherited a complementary service in first class which, after a rocky start, had found its feat and was generally very good and cut it to the bone (from four menu rotations to two to one as I recall, smaller portions, smaller glasses, etc etc). They also managed to mess up standard class catering with their changes to catering crewing arrangements meaning that the trolley became extraordinary rare for quite a while. They prioritised the colour of the trains over customers (they took all their sets in for rebranding and then took them all in again for their actual refresh). They spared no expense on telling us how amazing everything was despite everything quite clearly not being amazing (that was what really rankled). When you contacted them their customer service was no better than any other TOC and sometimes seemed worse with non-sensical answers and general stupidity.

They did have some bright points to be fair. Getting the buffets on the Azuma's and being allowed to fit seats that weren't grey mean that they're slightly better than their GWR cousins. The refresh of the Mk4s and Mk3s was very good including the introduction of screens and also passenger loading information (which was better than that provided on the Azuma's as you could actually get a map showing which seats might be free by signing into the WiFi). But for me the service in general just seemed to decline and get worse as their tenure went on.

I also don't buy that Virgin were inherently somehow better at PR than other TOCs. LNER seem to be doing very well in that regard including getting Mallard out of the NRM and into York station for an event. I was at Middlesbrough station for the first London service and that had steel drum band, local dignitaries, fully rebranded station with lots of Azuma signage, handheld fireworks as the train rolled into Middlesbrough and brass band on arrival at Kings Cross. The brand itself isn't perhaps a jazzy as Virgin was but it doesn't' seem to be rubbish by any means and does what it says on the tin.

For me LNER have been a return to the normality and consistent quality that East Coast managed themselves (though East Coast were still the superior operator in my view, just needed a slightly more interesting brand!).

So no, in my view, losing Stagecoach/Virgin from the InterCity East Coast operation has been very good news. I can't really speak to Avanti, EMR and SWR but the experiences I've had with them I don't recall them being all that different from their Stagecoach/Virgin (as applicable) predecessors. But I fully confess that my journeys have always been intermittent on those operators!

 

[takno]

I think even by the late 80s and early 90s when I was growing up, Branson was a bit of sad middle-aged man still trying to look cool. Certainly at the time he was succeeding in impressing whole golf-clubs full of boomers, but even then not so much the younger demographic (who are now the middle-aged golf club dwellers themselves). In business terms, almost everything Virgin have attached their name to outside of their core record label and airline has been a bit of a naff also-ran product, usually in an environment where there are better well-established specialist brands. They always seemed to style it out without making anybody particularly angry for a long time though.

It was really only with Virgin Media that they managed to attach their name to a much-hated useless monopoly, and it was really that and Branson's retreat to his private island which left the brand as the tarnished mess they are today. It's noteworthy in many ways that even the widespread use of the letter V by Russian forces in the Ukraine hasn't prompted anybody to bother mentioning Virgin, even as a lazy throwaway joke.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SWR and Avanti are.. fine.

Are they? I think Avanti is terrible. It's mostly the same staff, but it has the feeling to me that the upper management are pushing a "don't give a stuff" culture and as such the service and manner of it has greatly deteriorated. And the brand itself is bad too.

Standard Premium is a good idea, but other than that it's just dross through and through, a definite "do minimum" operation. Even the new Pendolino interior scheme looks like something from a low-cost airline (though the Voyagers look nice).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2022 ==

It was really only with Virgin Media that they managed to attach their name to a much-hated useless monopoly, and it was really that and Branson's retreat to his private island which left the brand as the tarnished mess they are today. It's noteworthy in many ways that even the widespread use of the letter V by Russian forces in the Ukraine hasn't prompted anybody to bother mentioning Virgin, even as a lazy throwaway joke.

Umm, the letter being used is mostly Z?

 

[jfollows]

On the Avanti/Virgin comparison, I do believe that Virgin received unwarranted favourable opinions, which implied they were better than they actually were, but they were still much better than Avanti are today.

Avanti has mainly taken things away.

Virgin introduced automatic rebates for delayed trains (to be fair, I think that's still in place today) and offered a reasonable service in First Class at a reasonable price. So that if things went wrong, for example some food wasn't available, it wasn't dreadful.

Avanti has introduced Standard Premier (or Premium is it?), but I find this generally negative, as the "least worst" option - I'm using it tomorrow and Thursday. But this is only because the First Class option is now overpriced, uninspiring, potentially crowded and worse than what went before. So although I can afford it, I don't consider it worth the money.

Avanti took away the seat selector when they started for quite some time. They also told people not to travel one weekend but wouldn't allow them to travel early on Monday morning, and given that many of these people will have had jobs to go to was bad publicity and poor all around. I'd hope they learned from this.

Virgin generally understood the value of customer service, whereas Avanti don't seem to. This is probably my bottom line. I've complained to Avanti but they didn't really even bother to understand the reason for my complaint. At least Virgin might have flung some vouchers at me.

 

[Runningaround]

An adaption to what Jim Royle once said ''You can't say Virgin Trains was that good when Branson travels everywhere by balloon''. Although were significantly better than Avanti. At least you could buy a ticket.

 

[nlogax]

Are they?

Yes, they are. They get me where I want to go (mostly) reliably and in relative comfort. Just like Virgin did.

If I have one complaint about Avanti it's their Delay Repay process. But I'll hold short of comparing that to Virgin's as I rarely took advantage of it back then. My WCML usage with Virgin was considerably less than it is now with Avanti.

 

[gaillark]

Whilst SP is a good idea what has been very negative is the reduction in full first class. That has been very poorly managed. And the food is hit and miss HOWEVER we must remember that the Managing Director of Avanti West Coast is the same MD as the last MD of Virgin Trains.
He should know what will and will not be good so I hold him personally responsible.

 

[cjmillsnun]

A similar feeling from over here in SWR land to be honest. Initially I welcomed the First Group franchise as Stagecoach had become rather stagnant on SWT, with little innovation, higher fares and a roughly steady levels of service (though the infrastructure changes and failures of 2017 didn’t help including Waterloo) and First did a good job on the Western once they got their act together. But given everything that’s happened since, would I welcome Stagecoach back - Yes, with open arms. Anything to replace the mess we’ve been left with now.

SWR took over in 2017 so had 2 and a 1/2 years of normal operation pre covid. In that time the service declined. I would’ve welcomed stagecoach back after 2 months of SWR.