GWR Summer Saturday Pembroke Dock Trains

[Jez]

I totally agree. I live within walking distance of a Swanline station and although I do sometimes use the station I often travel to either Neath or Port Talbot as there is either not a suitable train stopping at my local station for the return journey or it is just easier to plan a day out if you are going from a station with a more frequent service.

Half hourly might be pushing it due to the paths and the performance risk to the faster services but certainly if they have enough rolling stock an hourly service shouldnt be a problem. Even if they stopped the Manchester services as they do now and had a stopper the other hour it would bridge the gap a bit. There are also some large gaps in the timetable e.g nothing suitable if you want to be in Cardiff by 9am, large gap in the evening after the 1904 from Cardiff to West Wales, no Sunday service at all. If a branch line like Maesteg can have a Sunday service dont see why a mainline like Swanline cant. The likes of Wem, Yorton, Pencoed, Llanharan, Pyle all get a Sunday service of some sort.

Even if Swanline did return to a mostly stand alone service between Cardiff-Swansea it wouldnt be an increase on what we are getting now really.

 

[craigybagel]

Is there any sign of the Swanline services being reinstated with the May timetable?

Not according to RTT anyway. With the amount of training required at Cardiff (and every other depot) I wouldn't put money on it coming back soon.

 

[Anonymous10]

Is there any sign of the Swanline services being reinstated with the May timetable? Although to be fair most of the time the Swanline stations (aside from Pyle) arent very busy and dont make the already busy Manchester services that busier. And given the small time penalty of the Manchester services calling there every 2 hours it might make more sense to keep it as it is currently as it saves 2 units and 2 sets of train crew. It seems to work out quite well at the moment and swanline passengers now, by and large, get 175s which is an improvement on the 153s and 150s that were used before.

As for Pembroke Dock, its about time that was reinstated. Understand why GWR cant run any this summer but hopefully TFW can at least run some 3-4 cars on their services this summer.

this half term the trains are either 2 or 3 carriage formations all day (friday) info is verified by the mk1 eyeball as local

 

[_toommm_]

For those not from the area, what is Swanline? Is it a local stopper from Cardiff to Swansea, an express service? Presumably a hangover of a name from BR days?

 

[Kite159]

For those not from the area, what is Swanline? Is it a local stopper from Cardiff to Swansea, an express service? Presumably a hangover of a name from BR days?

Brand name BR used when the Cardiff to Swansea stopping service got introduced in the 90s with some of the stations opened:

Swanline - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

From memory Baglan had Swanline branding on the signs.

(It's a bit like the "Ivanhoe" line branding between Nottingham & Leicester)

 

[_toommm_]

Brand name BR used when the Cardiff to Swansea stopping service got introduced in the 90s with some of the stations opened:

Swanline - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

From memory Baglan had Swanline branding on the signs.

(It's a bit like the "Ivanhoe" line branding between Nottingham & Leicester)

Ah thank you. I had a look at the Wiki page shortly after posting but I either glossed over what service type (stopping/express) it was or it wasn’t there; so thank you for clarifying that it’s the stoppers that are Swanline branded/names.

 

[Jez]

For those not from the area, what is Swanline? Is it a local stopper from Cardiff to Swansea, an express service? Presumably a hangover of a name from BR days?

it was called Swanline when it was first launched back in 1994 (?) when they reopened Llansamlet, Skewen, Briton Ferry, Baglan and Pyle. Stopping service calling at the above stations plus the main ones Swansea, Neath, Port Talbot, Bridgend and Cardiff. I guess the name has kind of stuck. But basically a collection of small stations between Bridgend and Swansea which have no facilities and very limited 2 hourly service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

Ah thank you. I had a look at the Wiki page shortly after posting but I either glossed over what service type (stopping/express) it was or it wasn’t there; so thank you for clarifying that it’s the stoppers that are Swanline branded/names.

Some of the services are part of the long distance Manchester to West Wales timetable (pre covid) particularly early morning and evening/late night. Since the covid timetable all services aside from the 1712 Swansea departure are part of the Manchester timetable. Even the 1712 is a Holyhead to Llanelli and return to Chester. At the moment there are none that are just Swansea-Cardiff I dont think.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

Brand name BR used when the Cardiff to Swansea stopping service got introduced in the 90s with some of the stations opened:

Swanline - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

From memory Baglan had Swanline branding on the signs.

(It's a bit like the "Ivanhoe" line branding between Nottingham & Leicester)

Im pretty sure the stations do still have swanline branding on them, at least some of them do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

Not according to RTT anyway. With the amount of training required at Cardiff (and every other depot) I wouldn't put money on it coming back soon.

Can Carmarthen train crew not do Swanline as they are trained as far as Cardiff.

 

[craigybagel]

Can Carmarthen train crew not do Swanline as they are trained as far as Cardiff.

They can, and indeed before Covid I'm pretty sure they did have some booked work on Swanline. But they're struggling too - as is pretty much every depot.

 

[Jez]

They can, and indeed before Covid I'm pretty sure they did have some booked work on Swanline. But they're struggling too - as is pretty much every depot.

That's fair enough. And stopping the Manchester's at these extra stations doesnt cause many problems. The average passenger probably doesnt even notice. They seem to absorb the time for calling at the extra stops by a shorter turnaround time at Carmarthen/Milford and slightly shorter dwell times at Cardiff and Swansea. Plenty of padding in the timetable.

 

[Envoy]

That's fair enough. And stopping the Manchester's at these extra stations doesnt cause many problems. The average passenger probably doesnt even notice. They seem to absorb the time for calling at the extra stops by a shorter turnaround time at Carmarthen/Milford and slightly shorter dwell times at Cardiff and Swansea. Plenty of padding in the timetable.

If you were going from Manchester or indeed, any of the major stations east of Cardiff to Pembrokeshire, you would not be happy to find your train calling at every station on the south Wales Mainline. When the Mk4 coaches arrive hauled by a Class 67 to form a Swansea to Manchester express service, Neath, Port Talbot & Bridgend will be the only stops.

I really do wonder if it would be beneficial to extend the trains that use the coast line via Rhoose to Swansea and maybe even Carmarthen. Passengers could swop at Bridgend if they wanted a faster service to/from Cardiff if they got the timings right. At the same time, Swansea and the other Swanline stops would have a direct service to Rhoose (for Cardiff Airport) as well as the large town of Barry.

Anyway, I think we have now gone off topic - which is about the south Pembrokeshire line.

 

[Jez]

If you were going from Manchester or indeed, any of the major stations east of Cardiff to Pembrokeshire, you would not be happy to find your train calling at every station on the south Wales Mainline. When the Mk4 coaches arrive hauled by a Class 67 to form a Swansea to Manchester express service, Neath, Port Talbot & Bridgend will be the only stops.

I really do wonder if it would be beneficial to extend the trains that use the coast line via Rhoose to Swansea and maybe even Carmarthen. Passengers could swop at Bridgend if they wanted a faster service to/from Cardiff if they got the timings right. At the same time, Swansea and the other Swanline stops would have a direct service to Rhoose (for Cardiff Airport) as well as the large town of Barry.

Anyway, I think we have now gone off topic - which is about the south Pembrokeshire line.

I am also not happy when travelling from Manchester and it stops at all stations between Crewe and Hereford but many seem to! This really slows it down particularly if booked to call at request stops like Yorton and Wrenbury. Ideally there needs to be a stopper Crewe to Cardiff and an express service Manchester to Swansea calling at just the bigger stations.

 

[craigybagel]

If you were going from Manchester or indeed, any of the major stations east of Cardiff to Pembrokeshire, you would not be happy to find your train calling at every station on the south Wales Mainline. When the Mk4 coaches arrive hauled by a Class 67 to form a Swansea to Manchester express service, Neath, Port Talbot & Bridgend will be the only stops.

I really do wonder if it would be beneficial to extend the trains that use the coast line via Rhoose to Swansea and maybe even Carmarthen. Passengers could swop at Bridgend if they wanted a faster service to/from Cardiff if they got the timings right. At the same time, Swansea and the other Swanline stops would have a direct service to Rhoose (for Cardiff Airport) as well as the large town of Barry.

If you do that, you end up with lots of unhappy Swanline passengers seeing their direct trains take longer.

I am also not happy when travelling from Manchester and it stops at all stations between Crewe and Hereford but many seem to! This really slows it down particularly if booked to call at request stops like Yorton and Wrenbury. Ideally there needs to be a stopper Crewe to Cardiff and an express service Manchester to Swansea calling at just the bigger stations.

The new timetable that will be in place once once all of the new fleets are in service is likely to see fewer stops for Manchester services.

But to get link that back into what this thread is supposed to be about - all services in Wales, be they operated by TfW, GWR, XC or Avanti, are likely to be less than perfect this summer as the lingering after effects of Covid continue on. This means that certain services, like GWR to Pembroke, can't run. As frustrating as it is, all that can be said is hopefully next year will be better.

 

[Jez]

If you do that, you end up with lots of unhappy Swanline passengers seeing their direct trains take longer.


The new timetable that will be in place once once all of the new fleets are in service is likely to see fewer stops for Manchester services.

But to get link that back into what this thread is supposed to be about - all services in Wales, be they operated by TfW, GWR, XC or Avanti, are likely to be less than perfect this summer as the lingering after effects of Covid continue on. This means that certain services, like GWR to Pembroke, can't run. As frustrating as it is, all that can be said is hopefully next year will be better.

I expect most Swanline passengers would change at Bridgend if that was to happen. I know I certainly would rather than going via the vale.

I know Covid hasnt helped matters but we have been promised a massive improvement to services in Wales and already over 3 years into a 15 year franchise and very little has improved. Infact trains seem even busier now than before covid certainly for leisure travel which is very bad news for Tenby passengers on sunny Saturdays this summer.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I might be wrong, but when the Swanline service was very originally restored, ISTR it was just a Bridgend to Swansea service with one unit, and did not run to Cardiff outside the peaks.

 

[robert thomas]

The service was instigated at the request of the then West Glamorgan County Council who subsidised it. From memory they also funded 3 pacer units which were named after species of swans. They could'nt aford a fourth unit which would have allowed an hourly service.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Another alternative might be to use rail replacement buses between Tenby and Milford Haven via Pembroke Dock line stations Friday and Saturday, with trains turning back at Tenby to cater for the majority of the demand using fewer units. Trains between Haverfordwest and Milford Haven also don't seem to be particularly busy, even in summer.

Interesting idea, Tenby to Pembroke Dock was certainly much quieter when I've used it (pre-COVID) than Tenby to Carmarthen/Swansea which could get very busy in summer. Trains between Haverfordwest and Carmarthen and beyond could get busy in summer though even when 3 coaches are provided.

4 car can run the entire route the platforms are long enough and would be easier to diagram one would think

Unfortunately TfW are short on stock; there never seemed to be enough units to provide more than 2 coaches to Tenby even in summer when 2 coaches weren't really enough which is where the GWR service was helpful.

A thought, wouldn't it make more sense to run the service through to Fishguard Harbour instead of Pembroke Dock? Wouldn't it cater more demand...

I know the Pembroke Dock trains aren't exactly boat trains as the 'Docks' themselves are on the other side of the town. Fishguard on the other hand provides a very seamless connection for the ship to Rosslare, Ireland. Whilst I'm aware the through Boat Train from London Paddington was axed c2003, with the five car class 802s they could be split/coupled at Swansea instead of running a full 9/10 car set down to Fishguard.

Apparently a 9-car class 800/802 cannot fit in the platform at Carmarthen (a 2+8 IC125 only just fit) so unfortunately any IET service west of Swansea would have to either ommit Carmarthen or mess around with splitting and joining. I have a feeling that the daytime boat train from Paddington was axed even earlier than 2003, with the overnight service lasting longer as a through Paddington train, but could be wrong.

I think the main destination is Tenby rather than the ferries.

Tenby is indeed (or was pre-COVID) the main reason the GWR services Pembrokeshire existed. If I recall correctly, aside from the early morning positioning move from Swansea, there were healthy loadings on the summer Saturday HST services east of Tenby but if you only used it west of Tenby you'd think it an expensive extravagance to have more than 2 or 3 coaches on the service. Hell, I'm not sure but perhaps even a 153 might have surficed before the UAT was installed during the PRM modifications.

Indeed, and surely the demand for tourism to Tenby heavily outweighs the small numbers transferring to the ferry at Fishguard? It would also only work if the train actually connected into a ferry, and they only run twice a day (with one being in the middle of the night).

The Fishguard night ferry is less "middle of the night" than it used to be, departing at 23:45 instead of something like 1:30am (I forget exactly) and I think there are TfW services to connect with them.

I'm not so sure. People are more and more likely to make choices that are better for the planet and I can see a resurgence in boat train traffic (albeit not quite to the good old days). The way to promote it would be direct trains from London to Fishguard with decent connection onto Irish rail at Rosslare. This would entice the large south east Irish population, as well as Irish tourists London bound to use the boat and train via Fishguard. The whole having to change onto a 153 at Swansea is likely to put people off and just give up and take the easy but more polluting option of Ryanair. We need to make the journey "seemless" if the boats want to win back airline traffic.

The daytime boat train has been a pair of 153s when I've looked on RTT recently (admittedly only 2 or 3 times), not just one, but you've got a point. I personally think 3-car DMUs with near-intercity ambiance (ie. 158 or 175) to and from Cardiff via the Swansea District Line with very few stops (Port Talbot, Llanelli, Carmarthen, Whitland and Fishguard & Goodwick) is the way to go in the short term though rather than a return to London services.

thats if the boats want the traffic stena have previously changed boat times to decrease foot passenger volumes out of Fishguard

The only major ferry timetable change I'm aware of was the May 2017 one when the night ferry became 23:45 as noted above (the daytime sailing shifted by about an hour as well I think). While I can't remember for sure, I think this resulted in improved connections between trains and ferries at Rosslare so there were positives for foot passengers as well as negatives (and connections were maintained at Fishguard albiet cutback from Cardiff to Swansea).

In a changing world, where we all care about emissions etc, I think in the next few years they will have very little choice but to work closely with TfW and Avanti. More and more of us every day are making the decision to be more considerate of what we do and when. It won't happen overnight, or at least it is unlikely to, but there will eventually be a demand for sensible sailing times with a decent rail connection.

I would suggest that most of the current sailing times look fairly sensible to me (although I have never been to Ireland):

• 07:30 Rosslare to Fishguard arrive 11:00
• 13:00 Fishguard to Rosslare arrive 16:30 theoretically allows a daytime journey from southern England to Dublin, reaching Dublin by 9pm
• 18:15 Rosslare to Fishguard arrive 21:45 allows a morning in Dublin then travel to Wales
• 23:45 Fishguard to Rosslare arrive 03:45 theorectically allows overnight travel with the advantage, similar to a sleeper train, of arriving in Dublin by 9am; albeit with the drawback of having to wake up to change between ship and train

Improved rail connections would help alot, how do you think the above ferry timetable could be improved?

 

[Techniquest]

I haven't looked at the ferry timetable in an absolute age, I have to confess. If there are indeed good connections already, then I am pleased to hear that. Was it not the case connections were worse for a while? I genuinely can't remember looking in the last few years now, or if I did it's data lost to history.

I am looking at those ferry times and I'm thinking there's potential for a visit to Ireland later this year. I haven't been to Dublin for a long time, not since a particular trip in 2015, it's high time I did something about that. I might have to take my beast with me for an adventure, I think some furious pedalling through Ireland, mixed in with some 22000s and some of those awesome 29000s, well this is already shaping up to be an excellent adventure

Agreed thoroughly with you those on the HSTs, west of Tenby passenger numbers were more enthusiasts out for a jolly than anything else in my experience. Especially before the Valenta/VP185 era finished!

 

[Anonymous10]

Interesting idea, Tenby to Pembroke Dock was certainly much quieter when I've used it (pre-COVID) than Tenby to Carmarthen/Swansea which could get very busy in summer. Trains between Haverfordwest and Carmarthen and beyond could get busy in summer though even when 3 coaches are provided.


Unfortunately TfW are short on stock; there never seemed to be enough units to provide more than 2 coaches to Tenby even in summer when 2 coaches weren't really enough which is where the GWR service was helpful.


Apparently a 9-car class 800/802 cannot fit in the platform at Carmarthen (a 2+8 IC125 only just fit) so unfortunately any IET service west of Swansea would have to either ommit Carmarthen or mess around with splitting and joining. I have a feeling that the daytime boat train from Paddington was axed even earlier than 2003, with the overnight service lasting longer as a through Paddington train, but could be wrong.


Tenby is indeed (or was pre-COVID) the main reason the GWR services Pembrokeshire existed. If I recall correctly, aside from the early morning positioning move from Swansea, there were healthy loadings on the summer Saturday HST services east of Tenby but if you only used it west of Tenby you'd think it an expensive extravagance to have more than 2 or 3 coaches on the service. Hell, I'm not sure but perhaps even a 153 might have surficed before the UAT was installed during the PRM modifications.


The Fishguard night ferry is less "middle of the night" than it used to be, departing at 23:45 instead of something like 1:30am (I forget exactly) and I think there are TfW services to connect with them.


The daytime boat train has been a pair of 153s when I've looked on RTT recently (admittedly only 2 or 3 times), not just one, but you've got a point. I personally think 3-car DMUs with near-intercity ambiance (ie. 158 or 175) to and from Cardiff via the Swansea District Line with very few stops (Port Talbot, Llanelli, Carmarthen, Whitland and Fishguard & Goodwick) is the way to go in the short term though rather than a return to London services.


The only major ferry timetable change I'm aware of was the May 2017 one when the night ferry became 23:45 as noted above (the daytime sailing shifted by about an hour as well I think). While I can't remember for sure, I think this resulted in improved connections between trains and ferries at Rosslare so there were positives for foot passengers as well as negatives (and connections were maintained at Fishguard albiet cutback from Cardiff to Swansea).


I would suggest that most of the current sailing times look fairly sensible to me (although I have never been to Ireland):

• 07:30 Rosslare to Fishguard arrive 11:00
• 13:00 Fishguard to Rosslare arrive 16:30 theoretically allows a daytime journey from southern England to Dublin, reaching Dublin by 9pm
• 18:15 Rosslare to Fishguard arrive 21:45 allows a morning in Dublin then travel to Wales
• 23:45 Fishguard to Rosslare arrive 03:45 theorectically allows overnight travel with the advantage, similar to a sleeper train, of arriving in Dublin by 9am; albeit with the drawback of having to wake up to change between ship and train

Improved rail connections would help alot, how do you think the above ferry timetable could be improved?

whilst the Pembroke dock service is quieter than after tenby it shouldn't be forgotten that a significant number of people do commute from pembroke dock to tenby (for Pembrokeshire anyway) and study's have been published indicating a hourly frequency should further drive this to profitable levels

 

[Dai Corner]

whilst the Pembroke dock service is quieter than after tenby it shouldn't be forgotten that a significant number of people do commute from pembroke dock to tenby (for Pembrokeshire anyway) and study's have been published indicating a hourly frequency should further drive this to profitable levels

And kill off the bus service?

 

[Rhydgaled]

I haven't looked at the ferry timetable in an absolute age, I have to confess. If there are indeed good connections already, then I am pleased to hear that. Was it not the case connections were worse for a while? I genuinely can't remember looking in the last few years now, or if I did it's data lost to history.

I think there were both positives and negatives; if I recall correctly the new ferry times coincided better with the trains at Rosslare (three out of four connections existing instead of two out of four I think) but meant that one of the four connections at Fishguard now only gets you to Swansea and not having an onward connection there to London.

whilst the Pembroke dock service is quieter than after tenby it shouldn't be forgotten that a significant number of people do commute from pembroke dock to tenby (for Pembrokeshire anyway) and study's have been published indicating a hourly frequency should further drive this to profitable levels

Profitable? Really? Given how busy the TfW/ATW long-distance services (such as Manchester-Swansea) have been for years with 2/3-car units and yet this is still a heavily subsidised franchise I would guess that you need rather more than 3 coaches full of passengers to overcome the staffing costs of operating a train service.

There is (or was pre-COVID anyway) an hourly Haverfordwest-Neyland-Pembroke-Tenby local First Cymru bus service anyway and the fact the railway goes via Tenby makes travel between Pembroke Dock / Pembroke and Whitland/Carmarthen very slow compared with car travel.

Personally I think the ideal service would be hourly to Tenby with alternate trains proceeding to Pembroke Dock and an express bus (on which rail tickets would be valid) between Carmarthen and Pembroke Dock using all the relevant bypasses on the A40/A477 (except perhaps the Whitland one) in the hours the train doesn't run west of Tenby. Unfortunately the rail element of that wouldn't fit into an even 30-minute interval timetable between Swansea and Llanelli/Carmarthen/Whitland without building two additional passing loops, one of which would be between Tenby and Pembroke Dock despite that section not seeing any increase in frequency.

 

[Anonymous10]

And kill off the bus service?

they do not need to be mutually exclusive if you are local you should be well aware the 349 bus service links many communities and would still be used by anyone trying to get to haverford west as theres no train there. also the tfw plan involves better integration with buses in Pembrokeshire

 

[Anonymous10]

I think there were both positives and negatives; if I recall correctly the new ferry times coincided better with the trains at Rosslare (three out of four connections existing instead of two out of four I think) but meant that one of the four connections at Fishguard now only gets you to Swansea and not having an onward connection there to London.


Profitable? Really? Given how busy the TfW/ATW long-distance services (such as Manchester-Swansea) have been for years with 2/3-car units and yet this is still a heavily subsidised franchise I would guess that you need rather more than 3 coaches full of passengers to overcome the staffing costs of operating a train service.

There is (or was pre-COVID anyway) an hourly Haverfordwest-Neyland-Pembroke-Tenby local First Cymru bus service anyway and the fact the railway goes via Tenby makes travel between Pembroke Dock / Pembroke and Whitland/Carmarthen very slow compared with car travel.

Personally I think the ideal service would be hourly to Tenby with alternate trains proceeding to Pembroke Dock and an express bus (on which rail tickets would be valid) between Carmarthen and Pembroke Dock using all the relevant bypasses on the A40/A477 (except perhaps the Whitland one) in the hours the train doesn't run west of Tenby. Unfortunately the rail element of that wouldn't fit into an even 30-minute interval timetable between Swansea and Llanelli/Carmarthen/Whitland without building two additional passing loops, one of which would be between Tenby and Pembroke Dock despite that section not seeing any increase in frequency.

if you take a look at the tenby observer online they name the study its been a while but i believe it was carried out by Swansea uni the branch is the busiest and amongst the locals ive spoken to the reason many dont is FREQUENCY. if you make a service reliable and frequent people are more likely to use it

 

[craigybagel]

The Fishguard night ferry is less "middle of the night" than it used to be, departing at 23:45 instead of something like 1:30am (I forget exactly) and I think there are TfW services to connect with them.

It is indeed - but it's still not at times that are likely to entice an IET load of passengers to want to use it.

The only major ferry timetable change I'm aware of was the May 2017 one when the night ferry became 23:45 as noted above (the daytime sailing shifted by about an hour as well I think). While I can't remember for sure, I think this resulted in improved connections between trains and ferries at Rosslare so there were positives for foot passengers as well as negatives (and connections were maintained at Fishguard albiet cutback from Cardiff to Swansea).

It was quite a big shuffle, especially for the day time sailings. They used to run at the traditional times they've used since Sealink days that are still seen with Irish Ferries at Pembroke and both operators at Holyhead - essentially ~9am and 9pm from Ireland, ~3am and 3pm from Wales.

I would suggest that most of the current sailing times look fairly sensible to me (although I have never been to Ireland):

• 07:30 Rosslare to Fishguard arrive 11:00
• 13:00 Fishguard to Rosslare arrive 16:30 theoretically allows a daytime journey from southern England to Dublin, reaching Dublin by 9pm
• 18:15 Rosslare to Fishguard arrive 21:45 allows a morning in Dublin then travel to Wales
• 23:45 Fishguard to Rosslare arrive 03:45 theorectically allows overnight travel with the advantage, similar to a sleeper train, of arriving in Dublin by 9am; albeit with the drawback of having to wake up to change between ship and train

Improved rail connections would help alot, how do you think the above ferry timetable could be improved?

Improved rail connections at the Irish end are more by happy accident than design - through tickets haven't been sold in years, and even if they were, the demand for them would be negligible. For the vast majority of journeys, including your hypothetical South of England to Dublin, it would be quicker to go via Holyhead.

I haven't looked at the ferry timetable in an absolute age, I have to confess. If there are indeed good connections already, then I am pleased to hear that. Was it not the case connections were worse for a while? I genuinely can't remember looking in the last few years now, or if I did it's data lost to history.

Stena changed their times at fairly short notice, and not at a time that coincided with a railway timetable change, so for a short period there was an issue with the times not matching, till ATW scrambled together some changes

 

[Dai Corner]

they do not need to be mutually exclusive if you are local you should be well aware the 349 bus service links many communities and would still be used by anyone trying to get to haverford west as theres no train there. also the tfw plan involves better integration with buses in Pembrokeshire

I'm local to the Ebbw Valley. The reintroduction of trains to Cardiff has resulted in the withdrawal of bus services.

Integration may mean running buses instead of trains or making passengers change modes for some journeys. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Anonymous10]

I'm local to the Ebbw Valley. The reintroduction of trains to Cardiff has resulted in the withdrawal of bus services.

Integration may mean running buses instead of trains or making passengers change modes for some journeys. Be careful what you wish for.

personally in Pembrokeshire those taking the bus are doing shorter trips usually or heading to the north of the county the train is longer distances i think the 349 would make a good companion service to the Pembroke dock and Milford branches even if pembroke went hourly as could link in tenby pembroke dock and then link into haverford west for other buses and trains providing a truly seamless experience

 

[Dai Corner]

personally in Pembrokeshire those taking the bus are doing shorter trips usually or heading to the north of the county the train is longer distances i think the 349 would make a good companion service to the Pembroke dock and Milford branches even if pembroke went hourly as could link in tenby pembroke dock and then link into haverford west for other buses and trains providing a truly seamless experience

I don't know the area, but looking at a map and wanting to minimise subsidies as a TfW official based in Pontypridd might I'd probably run a bus between Pembroke Dock and Johnston and let through passengers change there for journeys such as Tenby to Haverfordwest. Maybe a Fflecsi DRT service so I could claim nobody had lost their bus service.

 

[Anonymous10]

I don't know the area, but looking at a map and wanting to minimise subsidies as a TfW official based in Pontypridd might I'd probably run a bus between Pembroke Dock and Johnston and let through passengers change there for journeys such as Tenby to Haverfordwest. Maybe a Fflecsi DRT service so I could claim nobody had lost their bus service.

alot of people use the bus to get to manorbier as the station is a long way from the castle and beach also you have neyland

 

[berneyarms]

Interesting idea, Tenby to Pembroke Dock was certainly much quieter when I've used it (pre-COVID) than Tenby to Carmarthen/Swansea which could get very busy in summer. Trains between Haverfordwest and Carmarthen and beyond could get busy in summer though even when 3 coaches are provided.


Unfortunately TfW are short on stock; there never seemed to be enough units to provide more than 2 coaches to Tenby even in summer when 2 coaches weren't really enough which is where the GWR service was helpful.


Apparently a 9-car class 800/802 cannot fit in the platform at Carmarthen (a 2+8 IC125 only just fit) so unfortunately any IET service west of Swansea would have to either ommit Carmarthen or mess around with splitting and joining. I have a feeling that the daytime boat train from Paddington was axed even earlier than 2003, with the overnight service lasting longer as a through Paddington train, but could be wrong.


Tenby is indeed (or was pre-COVID) the main reason the GWR services Pembrokeshire existed. If I recall correctly, aside from the early morning positioning move from Swansea, there were healthy loadings on the summer Saturday HST services east of Tenby but if you only used it west of Tenby you'd think it an expensive extravagance to have more than 2 or 3 coaches on the service. Hell, I'm not sure but perhaps even a 153 might have surficed before the UAT was installed during the PRM modifications.


The Fishguard night ferry is less "middle of the night" than it used to be, departing at 23:45 instead of something like 1:30am (I forget exactly) and I think there are TfW services to connect with them.


The daytime boat train has been a pair of 153s when I've looked on RTT recently (admittedly only 2 or 3 times), not just one, but you've got a point. I personally think 3-car DMUs with near-intercity ambiance (ie. 158 or 175) to and from Cardiff via the Swansea District Line with very few stops (Port Talbot, Llanelli, Carmarthen, Whitland and Fishguard & Goodwick) is the way to go in the short term though rather than a return to London services.


The only major ferry timetable change I'm aware of was the May 2017 one when the night ferry became 23:45 as noted above (the daytime sailing shifted by about an hour as well I think). While I can't remember for sure, I think this resulted in improved connections between trains and ferries at Rosslare so there were positives for foot passengers as well as negatives (and connections were maintained at Fishguard albiet cutback from Cardiff to Swansea).


I would suggest that most of the current sailing times look fairly sensible to me (although I have never been to Ireland):

• 07:30 Rosslare to Fishguard arrive 11:00
• 13:00 Fishguard to Rosslare arrive 16:30 theoretically allows a daytime journey from southern England to Dublin, reaching Dublin by 9pm
• 18:15 Rosslare to Fishguard arrive 21:45 allows a morning in Dublin then travel to Wales
• 23:45 Fishguard to Rosslare arrive 03:45 theorectically allows overnight travel with the advantage, similar to a sleeper train, of arriving in Dublin by 9am; albeit with the drawback of having to wake up to change between ship and train

Improved rail connections would help alot, how do you think the above ferry timetable could be improved?

A few comments:

The rail connection out of the 18:15 sailing from Rosslare at Fishguard isn’t much use to anyone for six days out of seven as it only goes to Carmarthen - it would really need to go as far as Swansea or Cardiff to be of any use.

The 07:30 sailing out of Rosslare has no public transport connection into it whatsoever at Rosslare, not even from Wexford.

The 23:45 sailing arrives into Rosslare at 03:45 leaving a 1 hour 50 minute wait for a train at 05:35 that requires a 15 minute walk to it. Not something I think is in anyway attractive.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The rail connection out of the 18:15 sailing from Rosslare at Fishguard isn’t much use to anyone for six days out of seven as it only goes to Carmarthen - it would really need to go as far as Swansea or Cardiff to be of any use.

That's a COVID cutback though isn't it; didn't that train get extended to Swansea fairly soon after the ferry change? In my view it needs to go to Cardiff (with a connection to Swansea at Carmarthen or Llanelli) though.

The 07:30 sailing out of Rosslare has no public transport connection into it whatsoever at Rosslare, not even from Wexford.

The 23:45 sailing arrives into Rosslare at 03:45 leaving a 1 hour 50 minute wait for a train at 05:35 that requires a 15 minute walk to it. Not something I think is in anyway attractive.

Yeah, it's not great; as I said above the changes brought both positives and negatives. For example one of the sailings from Fishguard (think it was the daytime one), given the recommended minimum connection time, used to just miss the last train of the day out of Rosslare. Assuming there are cabins on the ship where passengers can sleep they could do with allowing passengers to stay on board the overnight sailing until 05:00 since it doesn't set sail again until 07:30 (unless the route interworks with something else of course).

 

[craigybagel]

That's a COVID cutback though isn't it; didn't that train get extended to Swansea fairly soon after the ferry change? In my view it needs to go to Cardiff (with a connection to Swansea at Carmarthen or Llanelli) though.


Yeah, it's not great; as I said above the changes brought both positives and negatives. For example one of the sailings from Fishguard (think it was the daytime one), given the recommended minimum connection time, used to just miss the last train of the day out of Rosslare. Assuming there are cabins on the ship where passengers can sleep they could do with allowing passengers to stay on board the overnight sailing until 05:00 since it doesn't set sail again until 07:30 (unless the route interworks with something else of course).

There's no longer a foot passenger gangway available at Rosslare for the Fishguard service (or indeed any other). Foot passengers can only leave the ship on a bus from the car deck to the terminal building. There isn't a hope that they'd be allowed to stay on the ferry any longer to get a better sleep.

Again, there just really isn't a market. The ferry exists for road traffic - if it can do a bit of top up business with foot passengers then great, but any great investment to improve things for them is just throwing money away.