Timing of Engneering Works

[swt_passenger]

It seems as if the BBC are asking questions, and pointing out the poor timing of some of the works: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-60999522

Running the usual mountain out of a molehill Easter weekend travel stories that they run every year? Quoting a “ludicrous” self styled expert?

 

[nw1]

Traditionaly engineering works take place over holiday weekends because this has less impact on commuters, however post covid the trains seem busier on a weekend than during the week. This is born out by our two most recent longer trips, where we were able to get good price advanced first class tickets on a Friday (or any other weekday) but everything on a Saturday had sold out (One trip to Manchester, one to London)

Our local route, Hull, Bridlington, Scarborough is the subject to works Easter weekend, which means that effectivley people will probably not choose to travel by rail to any of the Yorkshire coast resorts from Hull or beyond. Typically with Easter being mid April this year that would be a very busy weekend with day trippers, probably one of the busiest weekends of the year.

So do Network Rail need to rethink their policy, and perhaps do works during the week?

I get the feeling that the rail industry in general is not responding quickly to the fact that far more journeys are lesuire related nowadays. Apart from commuting more general business travel has been cut back as well, I for one now have the technology to avoid the need for a weekly trip to Preston (by train), now we are out of covid restrictions this is scaled back to 1 per month or so.

Surely works should be arranged on the basis of 'least journieys affected'

People still need to commute. I don't think it would be helpful to see people's work journeys disrupted by midweek engineering works. One has to remember that Covid restrictions and guidance are slowly easing and during the coming months one might guess commuting will continue to recover to some extent, even if it's only 3 days a week.

The "importance" of the rail journey needs to be taken into account and avoiding disrupting commutes needs to be a top priority.

Having said that, I do agree that Easter weekend is very bad timing for engineering works though. Better to try and get as much of it done as possible during weekends in the "off-season" of October to March (excepting December); I may be wrong but I'm sure that BR tended to stick to the winter half of the year to a greater extent than now.

 

[zwk500]

It seems as if the BBC are asking questions, and pointing out the poor timing of some of the works: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-60999522

The only other option for an all-line block longer than 3 days of the West Coast Main Line is at Christmas, and NR tried to get a longer possession then and the operators objected so the work had to be broken up in to separate parts.

 

[Falcon1200]

But long distance lines where a lot of the custom is holiday, or visiting family, or other occasional traffic? Less disruptive to close for a week outside the main holiday seasons.

Not less disruptive for freight traffic, which as has been said before is a major component of WCML usage.

Looks like NR forgot to look into their crystal ball when planning these works months if not years ago.

Indeed; Surely they should have know when planning work in 2019 that, as the 'travel expert' Mr Calder says, Easter 2022 would mark the end of restrictions for a world-wide pandemic ?!!!

(nw1) I may be wrong but I'm sure that BR tended to stick to the winter half of the year to a greater extent than now;

Not always, as per the Back in the Day topic, in April 1983 the WCML was shut between Preston and Carlisle (and between Stafford and Birmingham).

 

[dk1]

As somebody has already posted, 2023 is practically put to bed now as far as planning is concerned so the BBC shouldn't expect anything to change anytime soon if at all.

 

[Class 170101]

As somebody has already posted, 2023 is practically put to bed now as far as planning is concerned so the BBC shouldn't expect anything to change anytime soon if at all.

Officially but frankly NR will try to add work throughout the period.

 

[The Planner]

Officially but frankly NR will try to add work throughout the period.

If something needs to go in late notice then there is a process for that. Are you suggesting that once V2 and V4 of the EAS are out we cannot make changes?

 

[Bald Rick]

You are confusing cause and effect. Of course fewer people travel on Sundays or over Easter. You can never rely on there being any trains.

I‘m not. The ECML is operating a normal service all Easter. The Sunday will be the quietest day of the year When trains are running Normally.

Easter Sunday is also just about the quietest day on the strategic road network (After Christmas Day). You’ll just have to trust me, based on real data, Easter Sunday is a very quiet day.

 

[londonbridge]

It seems as if the BBC are asking questions, and pointing out the poor timing of some of the works: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-60999522

It’s all very well dragging covid into it and saying it’s the first BH weekend since restrictions were lifted, except no one knew we’d be emerging from a pandemic when the schedule of works was drawn up.

 

[Class 170101]

If something needs to go in late notice then there is a process for that. Are you suggesting that once V2 and V4 of the EAS are out we cannot make changes?

Not the amount of changes I'm witnessing, no.

 

[The Planner]

Not the amount of changes I'm witnessing, no.

Reject them then.

 

[Class 170101]

Reject them then.

Not for the want of trying

 

[The Planner]

Not for the want of trying

Process is there, if NR haven't followed Part D, used the decision criteria etc then a dispute panel wouldn't rule in our favour. Clearly if people accept the proposal then the access will get taken.

 

[Class 170101]

Process is there, if NR haven't followed Part D, used the decision criteria etc then a dispute panel wouldn't rule in our favour. Clearly if people accept the proposal then the access will get taken.

Depends who accepts it unfortunately.

 

[andystock22]

I'm hearing reports that there will be record car journeys on the roads this easter.

I think there needs to be a review of when engineering work is undertaken on the railways.

This easter weekend would have the been the perfect opportunity to increase passenger numbers, instead we have loads of lines blocked with engineering work.

With many commuters who can now work from home if they need to, I think it would now be better to do engineering work midweek.

For those that can't work from home, they should operate express coaches to the nearest operating train service.

 

[zwk500]

I'm hearing reports that there will be record car journeys on the roads this easter.

I think there needs to be a review of when engineering work is undertaken on the railways.

This easter weekend would have the been the perfect opportunity to increase passenger numbers, instead we have loads of lines blocked with engineering work.

With many commuters who can now work from home if they need to, I think it would now be better to do engineering work midweek.

For those that can't work from home, they should operate express coaches to the nearest operating train service.

It is all explained above, but in short: there is a review into timing of engineering works. NR is shifting towards more weekday blockades. They do run coaches to alternative rail options. This Easters works would have been planned before covid, and for 4 consecutive days of access bank Holidays are still less disruptive than during the week would be for e.g. an All line Blockade at Watford Junction

 

[Snow1964]

It is all explained above, but in short: there is a review into timing of engineering works. NR is shifting towards more weekday blockades. They do run coaches to alternative rail options. This Easters works would have been planned before covid, and for 4 consecutive days of access bank Holidays are still less disruptive than during the week would be for e.g. an All line Blockade at Watford Junction

This is true, but although some of these are planned before Covid, there is often very little in the public domain to allow people to book alternatives. Within days of Easter finishing and schools goes back, some people will be planning where to go away to next Easter.

I bet you that if if Network Rail knows where it’s big processions are for next 24 months, no rail Operator will bother to list the closures on its website beyond the next few weeks. So if I was planning a trip for school summer holidays, or October half term, or visiting relatives at other end of country at Christmas, how do I know in advance that trip will be disrupted.

I don’t get this secrecy and hiding it approach.

If closing a line to replace a bridge or major junction has been booked then why hide it, surely it is better to warn and if things change, put a late amendment notice saying cancelled and trains will run as normal, rather than let everyone assume trains will run when you know line will closed.

Whilst might not be able to advertise minor work until much closer date, I do think the major bank holiday line closures should be much better advertised in advance

 

[Starmill]

This is true, but although some of these are planned before Covid, there is often very little in the public domain to allow people to book alternatives. Within days of Easter finishing and schools goes back, some people will be planning where to go away to next Easter.

I bet you that if if Network Rail knows where it’s big processions are for next 24 months, no rail Operator will bother to list the closures on its website beyond the next few weeks. So if I was planning a trip for school summer holidays, or October half term, or visiting relatives at other end of country at Christmas, how do I know in advance that trip will be disrupted.

I don’t get this secrecy and hiding it approach.

If closing a line to replace a bridge or major junction has been booked then why hide it, surely it is better to warn and if things change, put a late amendment notice saying cancelled and trains will run as normal, rather than let everyone assume trains will run when you know line will closed

I agree with you that longer notice would be highly desirable. Unfortunately most operators cannot even get planning organised for twelve weeks ahead, or in some cases even a couple of weeks ahead, let alone a whole year.

Network Rail could publish what access they've asked for much further in advance, but would that help the general public? In particular, it might change significantly, and there is very little useful information there for the general public, because nobody will be able to answer the first question about what the overall effect on the train service will be.

 

[The Planner]

This is true, but although some of these are planned before Covid, there is often very little in the public domain to allow people to book alternatives. Within days of Easter finishing and schools goes back, some people will be planning where to go away to next Easter.

I bet you that if if Network Rail knows where it’s big processions are for next 24 months, no rail Operator will bother to list the closures on its website beyond the next few weeks. So if I was planning a trip for school summer holidays, or October half term, or visiting relatives at other end of country at Christmas, how do I know in advance that trip will be disrupted.

I don’t get this secrecy and hiding it approach.

If closing a line to replace a bridge or major junction has been booked then why hide it, surely it is better to warn and if things change, put a late amendment notice saying cancelled and trains will run as normal, rather than let everyone assume trains will run when you know line will closed

Its a bit more nuanced than that. Version 3 of the 2023 Engineering Access Statement has gone out which is the proposal document for the May 23 timetable period. Much of the disruption is agreed but until V4 comes out you don't actually have a documented decision. There is a lot of 2024 agreed as well, but that is still subject to a lot of change. 2023 will alter to an extent as well. As a TOC you might not want to cry wolf too far away and its recognised that the further out you tell people the less they take notice of it. Look at this Easter and the FA, they ignored the advice NR gave over two years ago!

 

[zwk500]

This is true, but although some of these are planned before Covid, there is often very little in the public domain to allow people to book alternatives. Within days of Easter finishing and schools goes back, some people will be planning where to go away to next Easter.

I bet you that if if Network Rail knows where it’s big processions are for next 24 months, no rail Operator will bother to list the closures on its website beyond the next few weeks. So if I was planning a trip for school summer holidays, or October half term, or visiting relatives at other end of country at Christmas, how do I know in advance that trip will be disrupted.

I don’t get this secrecy and hiding it approach.

If closing a line to replace a bridge or major junction has been booked then why hide it, surely it is better to warn and if things change, put a late amendment notice saying cancelled and trains will run as normal, rather than let everyone assume trains will run when you know line will closed

It's a very good point and I don't know all the details. Also, if you publicised Easter works 18 months in advance you'd probably get people confusing which year each set of works was happening in.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

With many commuters who can now work from home if they need to, I think it would now be better to do engineering work midweek.

Tell that to the rail freight operators! Remember that the WCML is the world's busiest long-distance mixed traffic railway with regular freight flows using parts of just about the entire route. Little wonder then that major works/blockades on that route have to be done over bank holiday weekends especially Christmas and Easter. Reality is that, unlike the road network, there are few viable diversionary rail routes able to accommodate the full level of traffic from other lines. This is why so much work is in fact performed overnight but also why bigger jobs inevitably cause disruption.

Note that another thread is discussing whether weekend rail fares should be increased given the strain the current boom in leisure traffic is placing on the network as a whole. But on the other hand peak weekday fares are unlikely to be going down any time soon. So which set of passengers would you rather inconvenience, those paying discounted fares or those paying premium rates? In short there are no easy answers but with Network Rail planning works up to 2 years ahead of time any change that might be agreed is not going to happen quickly. There is also the possibility that the current level of leisure travel demand may not last given the general cost of living squeeze.

 

[Snow1964]

It's a very good point and I don't know all the details. Also, if you publicised Easter works 18 months in advance you'd probably get people confusing which year each set of works was happening in.

Maybe not 18 months in advance, but 11 months for the major shutdowns would be a start, with minor closures shorter date.

It has been done before, when the 10day shutdown at Basingstoke was done, and Waterloo platform lengthening was done, the dates were advertised about year in advance, to allow people to plan their holiday dates to avoid it. So can be done.

If you don’t advertise it then people might arrange to travel on the date of disruption rather than go away day or two earlier.

 

[The Planner]

Tell that to the rail freight operators! Remember that the WCML is the world's busiest long-distance mixed traffic railway with regular freight flows using parts of just about the entire route. Little wonder then that major works/blockades on that route have to be done over bank holiday weekends especially Christmas and Easter. Reality is that, unlike the road network, there are few viable diversionary rail routes able to accommodate the full level of traffic from other lines. This is why so much work is in fact performed overnight but also why bigger jobs inevitably cause disruption.

Note that another thread is discussing whether weekend rail fares should be increased given the strain the current boom in leisure traffic is placing on the network as a whole. But on the other hand peak weekday fares are unlikely to be going down any time soon. So which set of passengers would you rather inconvenience, those paying discounted fares or those paying premium rates? In short there are no easy answers but with Network Rail planning works up to 2 years ahead of time any change that might be agreed is not going to happen quickly. There is also the possibility that the current level of leisure travel demand may not last given the general cost of living squeeze.

That is a really valid point and something that the industry needs to get a grip of. Strategically, W10 gauge cleared routes are at a premium and you still have to consider the implications of the diversions to the FOCs themselves.

 

[Starmill]

The idea of doing significant work midweek is essentially a non-starter, except on routes where there's currently no freight and no commuting flows. For example the Heart of Wales line had some early this year.

 

[Taunton]

Look at this Easter and the FA, they ignored the advice NR gave over two years ago!

But the Easter holiday is probably the best time for the football competitions, and only a minority of those attending might use the Euston line. Most will use car and/or the Underground anyway. It's a bit unreasonable of the railway to scoop everyone else's best opportunities first.

As I understand it, the works are at Euston itself. It's the railway's own issue that they have let alternate route knowledge and stock compatibility go in pursuit of their own financial advantages.

I do have some experience of longer shutdowns elsewhere in lieu of multi-weekend work or other staged approaches, and while at first they do seem to offer efficient advantages of an "all hands to the pump continuously" approach, it seems inevitable that over time this gets eased back to working normal hours, and indeed nobody key on site on the intervening weekend days, for the convenience of those doing the works and even just avoiding normal weekend premium pay - elsewhere in construction this is known as a "contractor-led programme". Anyone who has seen disruptive road works left untouched over weekends, and sometimes longer where the workforce have been sent elsewhere, will identify with this.

 

[The Planner]

But the Easter holiday is probably the best time for the football competitions, and only a minority of those attending might use the Euston line. Most will use car and/or the Underground anyway. It's a bit unreasonable of the railway to scoop everyone else's best opportunities first.

As I understand it, the works are at Euston itself. It's the railway's own issue that they have let alternate route knowledge and stock compatibility go in pursuit of their own financial advantages.

Incorrect, all line block at Watford, all line block at Kings Langley for M25 viaduct works as well as other bits for East West and junction tamps. Its the first time in decades or longer that the FA decided to put them at Easter.

 

[Class 170101]

I agree with you that longer notice would be highly desirable. Unfortunately most operators cannot even get planning organised for twelve weeks ahead, or in some cases even a couple of weeks ahead, let alone a whole year.

Network Rail could publish what access they've asked for much further in advance, but would that help the general public? In particular, it might change significantly, and there is very little useful information there for the general public, because nobody will be able to answer the first question about what the overall effect on the train service will be.

Interestingly NR would like to reduce the 12 week window to eight. Where as I'd agree with you why not give guidance further out, Above it was mentioned that some people will finish this Easter and plan Easter 2023. I am aware of friends who were looking at the concert scene for Summer 2022 in September last year but would have had little idea of how to get there or home in terms of timetables etc for most rail operators. That said I believe East Coast have been pushing the booking horizons out to 12 months

Its a bit more nuanced than that. Version 3 of the 2023 Engineering Access Statement has gone out which is the proposal document for the May 23 timetable period. Much of the disruption is agreed but until V4 comes out you don't actually have a documented decision. There is a lot of 2024 agreed as well, but that is still subject to a lot of change. 2023 will alter to an extent as well. As a TOC you might not want to cry wolf too far away and its recognised that the further out you tell people the less they take notice of it. Look at this Easter and the FA, they ignored the advice NR gave over two years ago!

Perhaps engineering work should be publically advised once a quarter in line with Versions 1 to 4. It is a risk that people ignore it and also that it changes but at least if its advertised then people cannot claim that it wasn't known about, the fact they chose to ignore it is their own responsibility.

Tell that to the rail freight operators! Remember that the WCML is the world's busiest long-distance mixed traffic railway with regular freight flows using parts of just about the entire route. Little wonder then that major works/blockades on that route have to be done over bank holiday weekends especially Christmas and Easter. Reality is that, unlike the road network, there are few viable diversionary rail routes able to accommodate the full level of traffic from other lines. This is why so much work is in fact performed overnight but also why bigger jobs inevitably cause disruption.

Note that another thread is discussing whether weekend rail fares should be increased given the strain the current boom in leisure traffic is placing on the network as a whole. But on the other hand peak weekday fares are unlikely to be going down any time soon. So which set of passengers would you rather inconvenience, those paying discounted fares or those paying premium rates? In short there are no easy answers but with Network Rail planning works up to 2 years ahead of time any change that might be agreed is not going to happen quickly. There is also the possibility that the current level of leisure travel demand may not last given the general cost of living squeeze.

Whilst the railway is still generally busier in the week compared to weekends the gap has narrowed post covid. I don't think the 'missing' workers will return full time if ever so pursuit of the leisure user is even more essential.

That is a really valid point and something that the industry needs to get a grip of. Strategically, W10 gauge cleared routes are at a premium and you still have to consider the implications of the diversions to the FOCs themselves.

And I agree with this as well though I feel it should be noted that the FOCs tend to have more flexibility on their traction / route cards than sadly TOCs do and said TOCs could learn from this.

Incorrect, all line block at Watford, all line block at Kings Langley for M25 viaduct works as well as other bits for East West and junction tamps. Its the first time in decades or longer that the FA decided to put them at Easter.

I agree with you that the FA are a pain, however I do wonder how much much slack the FA have got in the football caledendar to accommodate matches. Season 2021/22 seems almost certainly to have been affected by the late finish of 2019/20 season and consequential late start of 2020/21 season (September 2020) and a need to fit in the Euros, delayed from Summer 2020 to Summer 2021 and the need to finish this season (2021/22) such that the players get a break this summer and that next season 2022/23 starts on time in late July / early August due to the World Cup being in December 2022 rather than Summer 2022. It should be noted there were no replays for FA Cup nor the League Cup this season - all matches decided on the night but also the FA Cup 5th Round was held midweek rather than at the weekend, which in my view is not great for the going to the match type fans.

In terms of the railway one could argue its not been flexible enough using the rails left at its disposal to run services to get passengers to the game in question despite the actions of the FA. There are no 'Blockade busters' from Marylebone or Paddington via the Chilterns to Birmingham New Street on Voyagers with Pendolinos from New Street to Liverpool / Manchester. Secondly how about EMR perhaps running some trains from Liverpool / Manchester via the Hope Valley to St Pancras, they managed a train last week in connection with the Grand National.

 

[HORNIMANS]

Having lived all my life on the GEML there is engineering work nearly every weekend!
A lot worse now with loads oF RRB and extended journey times and people queueing for buses.
When I was a teenager Single line working was used and most engineering was on Saturday nights and
had t0 be completed by midday on Sundays. Thats because BR made more money the rest of the day.
No buses, everyone stayed on the train!
We have got to find away of getting back to a 7 day working railway.
People dont just work M-F, many people work Saturdays and Sundays.

 

[Starmill]

Having lived all my life on the GEML there is engineering work nearly every weekend!
A lot worse now with loads oF RRB and extended journey times and people queueing for buses.
When I was a teenager Single line working was used and most engineering was on Saturday nights and
had t0 be completed by midday on Sundays. Thats because BR made more money the rest of the day.
No buses, everyone stayed on the train!
We have got to find away of getting back to a 7 day working railway.
People dont just work M-F, many people work Saturdays and Sundays.

Wasn't Great Eastern a specific set of upgrades to the overhead wires to improve their reliability? It had particular kit which was unsuitable for modern needs. In addition there were quite a few crossrail works to do. But in the main aren't these behind us now?

 

[Class 170101]

Wasn't Great Eastern a specific set of upgrades to the overhead wires to improve their reliability? It had particular kit which was unsuitable for modern needs. In addition there were quite a few crossrail works to do. But in the main aren't these behind us now?

Move onto the next project - Beaulieu Park Station.