Timing of Engneering Works

[HamworthyGoods]

Surely works should be arranged on the basis of 'least journieys affected'

What about freight which usually runs Monday to Fridays so weekend closures are better for them? The railway being for the movement of both passengers and goods!

 

[zwk500]

This new bridge from the 1980s went in from scratch between Friday end of service and next Monday morning start, including excavating the original embankment. Finished early, actually.

Shame those old skills are lost.

They aren't lost, plenty of bridges are replaced in a single weekend nowadays as well as longer blocks. It depends on the bridge design, site access/safety, buried services, availability of road and rail closure etc.

 

[Dave W]

I'm glad this has been raised - I got myself embroiled in a Twitter argument about the FA Cup semifinals where I was outright told that my assertion that Easter is the quietest time to do work (and had been planned years in advance) was a lie.

So it was nice to see the experts vindicate it

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I'm glad this has been raised - I got myself embroiled in a Twitter argument about the FA Cup semifinals where I was outright told that my assertion that Easter is the quietest time to do work (and had been planned years in advance) was a lie.

So it was nice to see the experts vindicate it

But there is very little freight that runs over Easter so it is actually a good time to close the railway.

 

[swt_passenger]

This new bridge from the 1980s went in from scratch between Friday end of service and next Monday morning start, including excavating the original embankment. Finished early, actually.

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Shame those old skills are lost.

Are the skills actually lost? Plenty of recent rail over road bridge replacements have been completed over weekends, or long weekends with a bank holiday. There are numerous videos on YouTube of such projects.

However there’s a regular problem with road over rail bridges which is the significant number of buried services.

 

[Starmill]

This new bridge from the 1980s went in from scratch between Friday end of service and next Monday morning start, including excavating the original embankment. Finished early, actually.

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Shame those old skills are lost.

Have the skills actually been lost? Rather than simply the approaches to health and safety of workers have drastically changed in the past forty years. In any case two full days of work is sufficient to install new bridges in some places.

 

[The Planner]

Have the skills actually been lost? Rather than simply the approaches to health and safety of workers have drastically changed in the past forty years. In any case two full days of work is sufficient to install new bridges in some places.

Of course they haven't, but everything was better in the past wasn't it, never mind if it was unsafe or anyone got injured.

 

[Horizon22]

I would agree with a lot of what you've said. My biggest concern is that many proposals, currently under development, for blockades 2-3 years in the future are still based around closing the railway on consecutive weekends or long bank holiday weekends.

Now for some routes that's going to be the 'least worst' way of doing things - particularly those with heavy commuter flows, say the line to Chingford. But that isn't the case everywhere - for example a closure between Newcastle and Edinburgh or Exeter and Plymouth is going to primarily affect leisure travel.

Yet many proposals, even on the latter kinds of routes, are still based around the idea of an unflinching 9-5 M-F railway. I do think there is a need to rethink a lot of this, and it's one of the areas where the incentives and structures in the current industry setup are not always aligned to deliver the best overall service to the public.

The West Country has had quite a few weekday blocks for 5-7 days in the past 6 months, so I think an appreciation of the flows (and seasonality too playing a big part in Cornwall and Devon) is appreciated.

 

[Bald Rick]

This new bridge from the 1980s went in from scratch between Friday end of service and next Monday morning start, including excavating the original embankment. Finished early, actually.

Google Maps

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Shame those old skills are lost.

it wouldn’t have been done ‘from scratch’, not least because it’s prefabricated and would have had lots of prep work - probably to slide it in.

Exactly like some jobs are done now.

And indeed some new over bridges can be installed under traffic, which absolutely was not done in the ‘good old days’. See the Stratford Westfield link for example.

Of course they haven't, but everything was better in the past wasn't it, never mind if it was unsafe or anyone got injured.

indeed, and particularly in one corner of Somerset, apparently.

 

[Class 170101]

One would expect certain lines to be blocked based on the seasons. So Hull to Scarborough should really be in November, December, January and February (maybe March at a push). Similar in parts of Devon and Cornwall as alluded to by @Horizon22 above.

 

[zwk500]

One would expect certain lines to be blocked based on the seasons. So Hull to Scarborough should really be in November, December, January and February (maybe March at a push). Similar in parts of Devon and Cornwall as alluded to by @Horizon22 above.

This is done with some lines e.g. Newcastle-Edinburgh, although there is the problem of making sure people and equipment are available if lots of work needs to be done in this space of time. There's also the greater risk of weather interfering with the engineering works.

 

[Class 170101]

This is done with some lines e.g. Newcastle-Edinburgh, although there is the problem of making sure people and equipment are available if lots of work needs to be done in this space of time. There's also the greater risk of weather interfering with the engineering works.

True, but there is a risk in summer of weather doing the same, just in a different way.

 

[zwk500]

True, but there is a risk in summer of weather doing the same, just in a different way.

With British weather nothing is guaranteed true!

 

[Bald Rick]

One would expect certain lines to be blocked based on the seasons. So Hull to Scarborough should really be in November, December, January and February (maybe March at a push). Similar in parts of Devon and Cornwall as alluded to by @Horizon22 above.

And that is indeed the case. You rarely find the routes to Brighton, Bournemouth and Blackpool closed in the summer, for example.

 

[Route115?]

Are there savings to be made from fewer longer possessions given that little work can be undertalen in the first and last hours of closure? Fewer longer closures may be the way ahead. I agree with the comments about seasonality but there are also issues with staffing and logistics generally. Do you close lines to the coast in the winter and commuter lines in the summer?

 

[Bald Rick]

Are there savings to be made from fewer longer possessions given that little work can be undertalen in the first and last hours of closure? Fewer longer closures may be the way ahead. I agree with the comments about seasonality but there are also issues with staffing and logistics generally. Do you close lines to the coast in the winter and commuter lines in the summer?

for most works it is invariably cheaper to do them in longer blocks.

and yes, in principle for big blocks - routes to the coast in winter, routes to airports in November, commuter lines when the schools are out.

 

[zwk500]

and yes, in principle for big blocks - routes to the coast in winter, routes to airports in November, commuter lines when the schools are out.

Which makes it fun for various lines between London and Seaside commuter towns - Block it when the schools are out and you disrupt everybody heading to the coast or Gatwick/Stanstead, block it when the schools are in and you disrupt all the schoolchildren and commuters (and there's plenty still making the journey, even with many having stayed at home). I think the Brighton Line has tried to focus blockades on February half term in recent years as the least bad solution.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Which makes it fun for various lines between London and Seaside commuter towns - Block it when the schools are out and you disrupt everybody heading to the coast or Gatwick/Stanstead, block it when the schools are in and you disrupt all the schoolchildren and commuters (and there's plenty still making the journey, even with many having stayed at home). I think the Brighton Line has tried to focus blockades on February half term in recent years as the least bad solution.

And then there is the added fun where schools their February half term on different weeks.

 

[zwk500]

And then there is the added fun where schools their February half term on different weeks.

Yes, West and East Sussex have a long tradition of making sure neither are on half term at the same time.

 

[Class 170101]

Yes, West and East Sussex have a long tradition of making sure neither are on half term at the same time.

Essex is also different I'm told, Easter falls right at the end of the school break rather than the middle weekend.

for most works it is invariably cheaper to do them in longer blocks.

and yes, in principle for big blocks - routes to the coast in winter, routes to airports in November, commuter lines when the schools are out.

Stansted seem to also accept blocks mid January to mid February. Is this similar at other airports?

 

[Bald Rick]

Essex is also different I'm told, Easter falls right at the end of the school break rather than the middle weekend.

that’s the same for most places this year.

Stansted seem to also accept blocks mid January to mid February. Is this similar at other airports?

Stansted is always quietest in January and the first week of Feb, there’s been a long standing “gentlemen’s” agreement to do engineering works between Cheshunt and Stansted at that time.

I don’t know the arrangements for other airports for certain; but Other spirits will have different demand profiles.

 

[Carlisle]

This is done with some lines e.g. Newcastle-Edinburgh,

Indeed whereas on the West Coast mainline, weekend closures (maybe for good reason) always appear to be in April,May or August so essentially it’s long seemed nigh on impossible to avoid clashing with major public events of some kind, however as you say other lines have historically had their work done in the quieter Autumn & Winter periods.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Yet on average there are still twice as many passengers travelling each weekday than on a Sunday. Hence why Sundays are typically used as the base day for engineering works, as it is by far when the fewest passengers are affected.

But it wouldn’t. For as long as I have been involved in the railway (30years+) the Easter Saturday/Sunday has been the quietest weekend of the year unless Christmas Day / Boxing Day are on a Saturday or Sunday. Most people tend to travel for the long weekend, which means Good Friday / Easter Monday are busy, but the Saturday / Sunday are dead.

You are confusing cause and effect. Of course fewer people travel on Sundays or over Easter. You can never rely on there being any trains.
I had planned to go to an event in Manchester on Good Friday. Can't get there in time because there are no direct trains.

Business meetings can be scheduled around line closures - that is what my colleagues did when Ipswich Tunnel was closed for several weeks a few years back. But you can't reschedule Christmas, or school holidays.

Yes, clearly lines whose main traffic is daily commuters should not close on weekdays. But long distance lines where a lot of the custom is holiday, or visiting family, or other occasional traffic? Less disruptive to close for a week outside the main holiday seasons.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2022 ==

I'm glad this has been raised - I got myself embroiled in a Twitter argument about the FA Cup semifinals where I was outright told that my assertion that Easter is the quietest time to do work (and had been planned years in advance) was a lie.

So it was nice to see the experts vindicate it

It's a self fulfilling prophecy. The "experts" have made sure Easter is the quietest time on the railway, by closing most of it.

Funny that the roads are so busy at the very same time. The Highways Authority actually suspends roadworks at such times.

 

[Bevan Price]

The situation with Easter has changed a lot since the 1960s/70s. Easter Saturday & Monday used to be amongst the busiest days of early Spring, with relief trains, and (particularly on the Monday), numerous excursions. Good Friday was quiet - most of the shops were closed, and many lines only had a Sunday service. Now it is mostly like a regular shopping day. Most shops still remain closed on Easter Sunday.

Excursions have disappeared, partly due to lack of resources, partly due to post-"selloff" fragmentisation, etc., but also because passengers have been "educated" for 30+ years to realise that Bank Holiday rail services are liable to be sh*t.

Moreover, a lot of rail replacement bus services are poorly organised, increase journey times by excessive amounts, and often cannot be trusted. Often, buses follow roundabout routes, spend "ages" waiting for time at quiet stations, etc. It would be preferable to split the buses into fast & slow components, full-size buses running non-stop between the busiest stations, with separate minibuses provided at the quietist stations, or those in "difficult" locations on the road network.

Also, instead of waiting for as much as 10-15 minutes after a connecting train has arrived, the buses should always depart as soon as all the passengers have transferred from that train. Also, replacement bus to train connections should always be guaranteed (unless the rail service is very frequent.) Regardless of problems further down the line, it is inexcusable to further increase already slow journey times due to failed bus connections.

 

[Class 170101]

The situation with Easter has changed a lot since the 1960s/70s. Easter Saturday & Monday used to be amongst the busiest days of early Spring, with relief trains, and (particularly on the Monday), numerous excursions. Good Friday was quiet - most of the shops were closed, and many lines only had a Sunday service. Now it is mostly like a regular shopping day. Most shops still remain closed on Easter Sunday.

Easter Sunday shops over a certain size are required to close by law.

Moreover, a lot of rail replacement bus services are poorly organised, increase journey times by excessive amounts, and often cannot be trusted. Often, buses follow roundabout routes, spend "ages" waiting for time at quiet stations, etc. It would be preferable to split the buses into fast & slow components, full-size buses running non-stop between the busiest stations, with separate minibuses provided at the quietist stations, or those in "difficult" locations on the road network.

Costs money, DfT wants to reduce costs

Also, instead of waiting for as much as 10-15 minutes after a connecting train has arrived, the buses should always depart as soon as all the passengers have transferred from that train.

They do if they are full, however the last bus can't go befpre the departure time advertised otherwise it would leave people behind. Remember as well some people will begin / end their journey at the station where rail replacement begins or ends and not arrive by train.

Also, replacement bus to train connections should always be guaranteed (unless the rail service is very frequent.) Regardless of problems further down the line, it is inexcusable to further increase already slow journey times due to failed bus connections.

How do you propose to make that work? The 10 - 15 minute connections are to improve the relaibility of connections. If a train was made to wait for a late running connecting bus under your definition that could be 5 minutes it could be 60 minutes. Either way it may not be possible to delay the train and what do you do for those people who's journeys further down the line who wouldn't be affected by the engineering works?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Excursions have disappeared, partly due to lack of resources, partly due to post-"selloff" fragmentisation, etc., but also because passengers have been "educated" for 30+ years to realise that Bank Holiday rail services are liable to be sh*t.

Excursions dwindled away to nothing during the 1980s: nothing to do privatisation, much more to do with the public's overwhelming preference for the private car for leisure travel. The same happened to all the express bus services that used to connect large towns and cities to their nearest coastal resorts. Reality is that leisure based demand for travel has become much more fragmented and as such is not well suited to rail. Try visiting a theme park by train.

 

[dan5324]

I see the Stansted express is down yet again for the next few weekends. Despite it being down all during weekends in January(as it always is) . It barely seems to run a full month without going down at some point. No wonder National Express coaches do so well there. Terrible for an airport rail service.

 

[philthetube]

Excursions dwindled away to nothing during the 1980s: nothing to do privatisation, much more to do with the public's overwhelming preference for the private car for leisure travel. The same happened to all the express bus services that used to connect large towns and cities to their nearest coastal resorts. Reality is that leisure based demand for travel has become much more fragmented and as such is not well suited to rail. Try visiting a theme park by train.

Rail Ramblers and Mystery tours ran full to the end in East lancs, The rail ramblers used to be organised by local rambling groups and only stopped when the railway could not operate them.

 

[mike57]

It seems as if the BBC are asking questions, and pointing out the poor timing of some of the works: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-60999522

People travelling over the Easter weekend are set to face delays and cancellations due to engineering works on the rail network.

No trains will run in or out of Euston, which is likely to disrupt fans travelling to the FA Cup semi-finals.

Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted Airports will also be affected.

 

[Mag_seven]

It seems as if the BBC are asking questions, and pointing out the poor timing of some of the works: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-60999522

The timing has been called "ludicrous" by travel expert Simon Calder as it is the first bank holiday where all legal Covid restrictions have been axed.

Looks like NR forgot to look into their crystal ball when planning these works months if not years ago.