Delays due to a fatality?

[Flamingo]

I cannot find any trace of an eu directive either.


It takes longer now because the police bve to be sure that it was a suicide, and that they weren't pushed (as happened in London a couple of months ago). Until the police have established that it was suicide, the body cannot be moved and it is a crime scene. This is the right thing to do. Can you imagine the headlines if someone was pushed and they casually removed the body in 14 minutes without investigating and it turned out it was murder? Bet everyone would then complain about those incompetent police officers.

Don't give him facts - they'll upset his view of the world

 

[Greenback]

Having lived abroad for the last ten years and returning to the UK to visit quite frequently, I can say the UK has most definitely gone downhill severely. It never ceases to amaze me just what a cesspit it has become. As sad as it may be to hear it for people who still live there, burying your heads in the sand is understandable but albeit doing you no service whatsoever. I would imagine it's difficult to detect a growing decline in the general quality of life, increase in crime etc. when you are surrounded by it.

And no, crime has not fallen. The way the figures are reported has changed though. But it's not just about crime. It's about general anti-social behaviour, yoofs (sic), 'elf and safety, the way the media try to create opinion rather than just report it.

Get out while you can I say.

Many of us think things have gone down the cesspit. Sadly, we aren't able to leave!

Flamingo, to some people everything is the fault of the EU!

 

[Flamingo]

Flamingo, to some people everything is the fault of the EU!

I know - I suppose we should be honoured to have the Editor of the Daily Mail as a forum member!

 

[Marklund]

Can you refer us to the EU directive that you mention? A web-link will do.

I've tried Googling it, and can't find anything.

(Or is it just another unfounded rant?)

Try Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights and The duty to investigate suspicious deaths.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Try Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights and The duty to investigate suspicious deaths.

As there should be. It's hardly meddling.

 

[Marklund]

As there should be. It's hardly meddling.

Well, considering you said you couldn't even find on Google the concerning EU legislation, I think I'll take your "expertise" with a pinch of salt....

 

[Greenback]

Now, now, calm down! The police have always had a duty to investigate suspicious deaths, it's nothing to do with any EU directive.

 

[Flamingo]

Try Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights and The duty to investigate suspicious deaths.

Article 2 of the European Convention of Human Rights (November 1950)

ARTICLE 2

1. Everyone's right to life shall be protected by law. No one shall be deprived of his life intentionally save in the execution of a sentence of a court following his conviction of a crime for which this penalty is provided by law.
2. Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this article when it results from the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary:
* (a) in defence of any person from unlawful violence;
* (b) in order to effect a lawful arrest or to prevent escape of a person lawfully detained;
* (c) in action lawfully taken for the purpose of quelling a riot or insurrection.

Source: http://www.hri.org/docs/ECHR50.html#C.Art2

1. Where does it say anything about investigating suspicious deaths?
2. It has been in place since 1950
3. The UK signed up to it in 1951 (an original signatory), and in came into force in 1953 (source http://www.leeds.ac.uk/law/hamlyn/echr.htm)
3. Britian did not join the EEC until 1972

The moral is: Try harder. Don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail

 

[Marklund]

That is true, but it does take a lot longer than it used to.

Why? That remains a question.

Is it the constraints of the ECHR? Other policing directives? A developing "Claims culture"? Or even the fractured nature of the Railway?

Never the less, the legislation that the poster was blaming on the EU for these delays is easily found on the Internet, despite 2 people claiming they couldn't find it.

 

[Flamingo]

That is true, but it does take a lot longer than it used to.

Why? That remains a question.

Is it the constraints of the ECHR? Other policing directives? A developing "Claims culture"? Or even the fractured nature of the Railway?

Never the less, the legislation that the poster was blaming on the EU for these delays is easily found on the Internet, despite 2 people claiming they couldn't find it.

Then post the link. I have just shown that your original source is wrong.

 

[Mojo]

It doesn't require a scene of crime to be set up at all. With good CCTV and witness statements a recent incident on the Underground had arrangements made to move the train and recover the body within 10 Min of the BTP and ambulance arriving.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Then post the link. I have just shown that your original source is wrong.

Perhaps we should take his "expertise" with a pinch of salt...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It doesn't require a scene of crime to be set up at all. With good CCTV and witness statements a recent incident on the Underground had arrangements made to move the train and recover the body within 10 Min of the BTP and ambulance arriving.

It is a crime scene until proven otherwise. That incident would have been a crime scene until the CCTV and witnesses had been examined. The length of time makes no difference.

 

[Marklund]

The moral is: Try harder.

The moral is, read case law.
http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/search.asp?skin=hudoc-in-en

Knock yourself out looking through the database for cases brought for being in breach of Article 2 and suspicious death investigation.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Well, considering you said you couldn't even find on Google the concerning EU legislation, I think I'll take your "expertise" with a pinch of salt....

It ha always been a duty of the police to investigate suspicious deaths since Robert peel. It has nothing to do with the eu.

 

[fsmr]

Don't give him facts - they'll upset his view of the world

Basically nothing to do with the EU but all incidents that could be fatal are treated as a crime scene until proved otherwise whch is why the M1 gets closed for 8 hours after a fatal car crash
one minor road near us was closed for 24hrs causing massive disruption after a serious RTC with one car involved and air ambulance airlift although driver survived.

Not advocating running trains over bodies but perhaps the proicess could be speeded up a bit

 

[Flamingo]

The moral is, read case law.
http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/search.asp?skin=hudoc-in-en

Knock yourself out looking through the database for cases brought for being in breach of Article 2 and suspicious death investigation.

Just another search engine... give us the links showing that the investigation of suspicious deaths on the railway take longer as a result of legislation implemented by the EU.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Basically nothing to do with the EU but all incidents that could be fatal are treated as a crime scene until proved otherwise whch is why the M1 gets closed for 8 hours after a fatal car crash
one minor road near us was closed for 24hrs causing massive disruption after a serious RTC with one car involved and air ambulance airlift although driver survived.

Not advocating running trains over bodies but perhaps the proicess could be speeded up a bit

BTP aim to have lines opened within an hour, I believe, which given that includes getting the relevant personnel to the site is pretty quick IMHO. Yesterday, the lines were re-opened quite quickly, it was around the one hour mark. Last time I was involved, the problem was searching the line to find the body. A lot of problems come when CivPol get involved as well.

 

[Marklund]

Just another search engine... give us the links showing that the investigation of suspicious deaths on the railway take longer as a result of legislation implemented by the EU.

Ahh, epic fail there.
See my previous post where I stated it was still a question as to what caused it to take so long.

The "search engine" as you put it, gives you the answer to where you questioned the provision on investigation of a suspicious death, and not why it takes so long as to clear the line.

 

[Wolfie]

Try Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights and The duty to investigate suspicious deaths.

The European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) is hardly EU legislation! In fact it absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

It was written in 1950 in the immediate aftermath of World War 2, with strong support from inter alia Winston Churchill. The main drafter was Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe a British lawyer, former Neremberg War Crimes prosecutor, and Tory MP (serving as Solicitor General for England and Wales, Attorney General for England and Wales, Home Secretary and Lord Chancellor of Great Britain). Just remind Cameron of that some time!

The ECHR is drafted in broad terms, in a similar (albeit more modern) manner to the English Bill of Rights, the American Bill of Rights, the French Declaration of the Rights of Man or the first part of the German Basic law. Controversial, huh!

Where problems come is that statements of principle are, from a legal point of view, not determinative and require extensive "interpretation" by courts to bring out meaning in particular factual situations. The ECHR is ultimately judged by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. This supra-national court, established by the ECHR, which provides legal recourse of last resort for individuals who feel that their human rights have been violated by a contracting party (the 47 member states of the Council of Europe) to the Convention. Funny old thing is that this court is absolutely nothing to do with the EU either!!!

Incidentally the EU traces its origins from the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) which formed iafter the Treaty of Paris in 1951.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah, sorry, I forgot...

It's all Europe though, iniit!!!

 

[Marklund]

Ah, sorry, I forgot...

It's all Europe though, iniit!!!

Indeed, that's the problem that's often made: Blame the EU when it's not even in their remit.

It was fairly obvious what legislation The Barlow Boy was talking about, i.e. the ECHR.

 

[turbo mick]

One of my work colleges had a fatality at slough yesterday we have forward facing cameras on all of the 165/166 this would help the BTP alot the bit i dont agree is having the driver to phone BTP straight after the incident to try and give as much information as its fresh in his or hers mind. I hope the dvr is ok not something i would like to go through even after 15yrs up the front

 

[kentuckytony]

Watch the BBC DVD of their 2-part documentary on the Bombay Railway.

That will give you a view of a completely different way that train fatalities are handled.
Due, I suppose, to the much larger number of such incidents - and maybe the need to keep large volumes of people on the move.
(One driver had 60 incidents in his 30 year career).

 

[Gmac]

Gettting the train moving is obviously going to be further delayed if the body has caused any damage. Then you could be stuck for a fair bit

 

[Old Timer]

This document may help the debate

http://www.hampshire.police.uk/NR/rdonlyres/A18CFBDB-D43B-4EA8-9C83-EDC37FE68722/0/01500.pdf

 

[chuckles1066]

There's actually guidelines in place for newspapers, especially nationals, to discourage reporting of suicide/suspected suicide, as there is a proven "copycat" effect

Interesting.

I think it was the previous administration that issued directives to newspapers and the BBC to "big Britain up" at all costs; they're both fairly easily manipulated, newspapers get threatened with imposition of VAT on their cover price and the BBC is told the existence of the licence fee will be "reviewed" if they fail to play ball.

Almost as if the government wanted to try and kid everyone that things weren't actually as bad as they were?

For example, a little quiz. Have a look HERE.

What momentous occasion occured on this day? You won't find any reference to it and yet it concerned an event that the entire nation had been talking about for ages, an event that would demonstrate the nation's superiority over everyone else. It should have been the lead story and yet.......

 

[Striker]

Interesting.

I think it was the previous administration that issued directives to newspapers and the BBC to "big Britain up" at all costs; they're both fairly easily manipulated, newspapers get threatened with imposition of VAT on their cover price and the BBC is told the existence of the licence fee will be "reviewed" if they fail to play ball.

Almost as if the government wanted to try and kid everyone that things weren't actually as bad as they were?

For example, a little quiz. Have a look HERE.

What momentous occasion occured on this day? You won't find any reference to it and yet it concerned an event that the entire nation had been talking about for ages, an event that would demonstrate the nation's superiority over everyone else. It should have been the lead story and yet.......

England got beat in the World Cup.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Interesting.

I think it was the previous administration that issued directives to newspapers and the BBC to "big Britain up" at all costs; they're both fairly easily manipulated, newspapers get threatened with imposition of VAT on their cover price and the BBC is told the existence of the licence fee will be "reviewed" if they fail to play ball.

Almost as if the government wanted to try and kid everyone that things weren't actually as bad as they were?

For example, a little quiz. Have a look HERE.

What momentous occasion occured on this day? You won't find any reference to it and yet it concerned an event that the entire nation had been talking about for ages, an event that would demonstrate the nation's superiority over everyone else. It should have been the lead story and yet.......

I thought we were in Group C, so our match would have started at 1930 BST. That screenshot was taken at 1830.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

If someone pushed me in front of a train, I'd like to think people would take more than 17 minutes to figure out what had happened, instead of wiping me up and making sure the trains get back on schedule.

I've witnessed a suicide in my station, and it's not nice for anyone involved, let alone the driver

Clearing up is not ignoring what happened. The instructions when the railway was run by people paid to run railways and not stop them at the first reason was that following a death the line must be cleared for traffic as soon as possible. Notes were to be taken and locations of major parts marked. However, if the police insisted that the body not be moved to aid their investigations then it must be stressed to them the importance of opening the line. I cannot remember the exact wording but it was along those lines.

 

[Striker]

I thought we were in Group C, so our match would have started at 1930 BST. That screenshot was taken at 1830.

And is he seriously suggesting that there was no mention of England being beaten by Germany in the World Cup on the BBC website? Of course there was! :roll:

 

[chuckles1066]

And is he seriously suggesting that there was no mention of England being beaten by Germany in the World Cup on the BBC website? Of course there was! :roll:

The match against Germany was in the afternoon.

Now look at the screen capture again and tell me where there's a mention of it

 

[Greenback]

I'm a bit confused sorry. Are you sufggesting that the lack of a heading on the BBC home page relating to England's embarrassing defeat in football is in some way down to a Labour government that was no longer in power?

Or was it an EU directive?