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That said, isn't there still 24tph testing to do before it opens? I note there are RTT times in for this on 1 May with associated access to Acton Main Line and Stratford / Ilford but another date after then was mentioned up thread. Opening the service and then having days when it is shut for testing wouldn't be good.
I'm assuming that they will want to test the new software that will be installed over Easter. That is software for the signalling system (ELR200) and for the trains (H5.7 - not sure of the TCMS version). Whatever the issues are with auto-reverse, they will need to be addressed too. I don't know if those are software related or if it's a concern from the ORR of trains running with no driver in the cab while on a railway where there might be trespassers or workers on the line. I don't know how that could be solved. Does anyone know?
The problem with branding it a tube line is that tube tickets are not valid through the whole route. A big issue with this is where crossrail has a common destination with the tube and tickets aren't interavailable like Heathrow
But any zonal destination beyond the core also suffers this problem
So does the Overground in parts and as I said in my earlier comment if the mode of Underground can be stretched to include both sub surface and deep level lines why not a bit further to include the Elizabeth?
The ship sailed when they went with the Elizabeth line name really. Yes it’s been planned as a different mode but the reality is it’ll be seen as a tube line.
I'm assuming that they will want to test the new software that will be installed over Easter. That is software for the signalling system (ELR200) and for the trains (H5.7 - not sure of the TCMS version). Whatever the issues are with auto-reverse, they will need to be addressed too. I don't know if those are software related or if it's a concern from the ORR of trains running with no driver in the cab while on a railway where there might be trespassers or workers on the line. I don't know how that could be solved. Does anyone know?
It has been solved ever since the DLR began decades ago.
The DLR has been running unfenced from, & alongside, the c2c line from Fenchurch Street with no staff member in the DLR train front seat from the day it started in the last century.
There has only been someone in the DLR front during the Covid interlude.
The DLR’s perfect safety record on these first two
unsegregated miles proves there is no need to fret about no driver in the Elizabeth line cab during the Paddington turning back.
The concept has been tested two millions times so far on the DLR.
it clocks up another 500+ tests every day with no track fatalities or injuries.
Isn't the following, timetable change, weekend considered more likely (despite the fact that the timetable change would appear to have no actual bearing on things)?
That said, isn't there still 24tph testing to do before it opens? I note there are RTT times in for this on 1 May with associated access to Acton Main Line and Stratford / Ilford but another date after then was mentioned up thread. Opening the service and then having days when it is shut for testing wouldn't be good.
Isn’t 24tph testing a nice to have, rather than compulsory for certification. In principle it is no different from any other line timetabling extra trains, and using the existing signalling for higher frequency.
It tends to be more practical to do an exercise where one train is delayed, and how quickly you can get the next 5 trains to follow it, it gives the control function knowledge about limits to recover from problems which tends to be more useful than know trains can operate at exactly 2.5 minute intervals.
I am sure I have read in the past that some busy places like Glasgow suburban and approaches to Liverpool Street and London Bridge has signals that could theoretically have a train every 90 seconds. Even though at busiest peak time only timetabled about every 140-150 seconds. Crossrail was designed to be capable of 27-30 trains per hour, so a 24tph test is not pushing the limit.
I am sure I have read in the past that some busy places like Glasgow suburban and approaches to Liverpool Street and London Bridge has signals that could theoretically have a train every 90 seconds.
The lowest planning headway anywhere on Network Rail metals is 2 minutes, and trains are timetabled on that in many areas throughout the day. The only exception is Thameslink, which has a 1.5 minute platform reoccupation value for the core stations - enabled by the use of ETCS in-cab signalling.
Well it is technically and had the name Crossrail being used that may have been made clearer it is a mode not a line of the tube and is equivalent to Overground or DLR. However ever since going with the Elizabeth line designation this is going to be seen as a tube line by the public and over time I feel it will end up under the Underground umbrella.
And actually I think is the best outcome. The Underground as it is covers widely different services and if you can currently have such different services as the Met line to Amersham and the Victoria line to Brixton as the same mode then I fail to see why it can't be stretched to include the Elizabeth line. Yes the trains are longer and the stops further apart but it's a TfL service that runs under central London and until now has been all that's required to be part of the Underground mode.
Just call it a new tube line and have done with it, it's going to happen anyway.
In my experience, "ordinary" people don't always know who operates something anyway - eg the fact that Thameslink is run by whoever it's run by (not TfL) isn't the point ... although it's a train service that runs under central London, people see it as part of the "real" railway, not part of the Underground, because it seems and "feels" very different, irrespective of operator. Like the Overground isn't seen as being part of the tube system by most people, but as a different mode.
Likewise Crossrail - yes, the Eliz name is a bit silly and could cause confusion once the line is running, but people I've asked see it as an E-W equivalent of the N-S Thameslink, ie a "proper" train that goes in one side of London and out of the other, and reaches places many miles outside London, rather than part of the tube system (which is essentially confined to Greater London). In the same way the RER in Paris feels to be a different mode from the Metro (irrespective of who runs it).
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Londoners might see it as a tube line, but those outside may not. Commuters on the GWML who already use the class 345 trains every day regard their journeys as being 'on the train'. For them nothing will change, other than timetables. Why would they switch to calling it 'the tube' when they never go underground?
It has been solved ever since the DLR began decades ago.
The DLR has been running unfenced from, & alongside, the c2c line from Fenchurch Street with no staff member in the DLR train front seat from the day it started in the last century.
There has only been someone in the DLR front during the Covid interlude.
The DLR’s perfect safety record on these first two
unsegregated miles proves there is no need to fret about no driver in the Elizabeth line cab during the Paddington turning back.
The concept has been tested two millions times so far on the DLR.
it clocks up another 500+ tests every day with no track fatalities or injuries.
I have consistently challenged here the "Not invented here" attitude to items which have worked perfectly well on the DLR for decades (incidentally, the DLR has just ended the isolated train operator; we're back to sitting at the front again if you want to come along).
Likewise the extraordinary amount of test running that has been practiced on Crossrail is unprecedented on anything that has gone before. I'm surprised they haven't now announced that as a result all the stock has to go for heavy overhaul before public service starts!
Londoners might see it as a tube line, but those outside may not. Commuters on the GWML who already use the class 345 trains every day regard their journeys as being 'on the train'.
Thanks, but presume this would exclude the central section right?
Edit: Ignore Me, I typed in TCR and nothing came out, but it is indeed there, just have to be on detailed mode
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I'm looking at the trains running in the trial on Monday, and it looks like there's a 1 minute dwell time at most stations. I'm presuming that won't be the case when it's fully operational?
I'm looking at the trains running in the trial on Monday, and it looks like there's a 1 minute dwell time at most stations. I'm presuming that won't be the case when it's fully operational?
I guess I was thinking if the doors are opening automatically in the central section (a la thameslink - or are they not?) how hard can it be. But maybe you're right
It's a railway with a brand name like The Borders Railway. Not a Tube, not the Underground, not the LizCrossPurp whatever you like haha. Such a ridiculous debate. It's The Elizabeth Line.
And the RER is operated by the SNCF (I think) so very comparable. I have always used the RER example to explain to people how it will feel, especially the "limited stop" feel in central London
It's a railway with a brand name like The Borders Railway. Not a Tube, not the Underground, not the LizCrossPurp whatever you like haha. Such a ridiculous debate. It's The Elizabeth Line.
And the RER is operated by the SNCF (I think) so very comparable. I have always used the RER example to explain to people how it will feel, especially the "limited stop" feel in central London
I'd say Crossrail is similar to RER A/B, but RER C is much more like Thameslink and RER D is more like the East London Line / Overground. Of course Paris has its own Overground network too, called Transilien, but the RER C and D with their lower branch frequency and more complex routes feels much more these than Crossrail.
I agree the 'mode' branding for the Elizabeth line is weird. I wonder what the plan will be if Crossrail 2 is ever brought back from mothballs. Will it be the same mode as Elizabeth Line or will we get yet another 'mode'?
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