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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

jfollows

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Oxford Road used to be where the train to Piccadilly was displayed on the departure boards as using platform 4 for ages, only to be changed at the absolutely last moment to platform 3 as the train was running into the station, requiring a run over the footbridge and a shove past the arriving passengers in order to make the train.
I'm told they don't do this any more, I certainly hope not.
 
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childwallblues

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Almost correct. As the 769s operate Southport to Alderley Edge/Stalybridge and only Wigan and Vic drivers sign to Southport, Piccadilly drivers only drive them to/from Alderley Edge to Manchester Oxford Road. So the vast majority of the time they are in electric...
Liverpool drivers also sign 769s but for ecs moves only from Allerton Depot to Wigan or Victoria
 

D9006

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performance levels at one of the worse today, 2 failures and only 3 out of the 6 diagrams 769s, 2 on Alderley edge out of 5, the Stalybridge diagram failed on return to Southport after 1 round trip, the 2036 ECS Southport to Wigan CS was 8 car unit
 

507020

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performance levels at one of the worse today, 2 failures and only 3 out of the 6 diagrams 769s, 2 on Alderley edge out of 5, the Stalybridge diagram failed on return to Southport after 1 round trip, the 2036 ECS Southport to Wigan CS was 8 car unit
Was that why 769450 was sat at Southport all afternoon again…
 

AM9

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450 is by far the least reliable 769 in the fleet. I don’t know why they run it as opposed to the other ones.
If it has an incipient defect, that could be a precursor to the class in general. The most effective way to identify, and permanently remove the fault is to eliminate likely causes as they occur.
 

Techniquest

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If it has an incipient defect, that could be a precursor to the class in general. The most effective way to identify, and permanently remove the fault is to eliminate likely causes as they occur.

Very true, it may not be an ideal solution for the average passenger, but the expression 'short term pain, long term gain' comes to mind.
 
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Greybeard33

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450 is by far the least reliable 769 in the fleet. I don’t know why they run it as opposed to the other ones.
Northern has only eight 769s to support the six diagrams. At least one unit will normally be on exams and I believe one unit has to be on standby to rescue any failure, so no spares.
 

507020

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Northern has only eight 769s to support the six diagrams. At least one unit will normally be on exams and I believe one unit has to be on standby to rescue any failure, so no spares.
I know that, so why not keep 450 on maintenance given that it needs it or as the spare, rather than put it into service where it will fail?


I have just seen 769434 at Lime Street. What could it have been doing there I wonder?
 

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jonesy3001

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I know that, so why not keep 450 on maintenance given that it needs it or as the spare, rather than put it into service where it will fail?

I have just seen 769434 at Lime Street. What could it have been doing there I wonder?
Reversed to go to Allerton by any chance from the Eccles line doesn't take a genius.
 
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507020

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Reversed to go to Allerton by any chance from the Eccles line doesn't take a genius.
My assumption was that it was being stabled there for Sunday, knowing that a daily Allerton - Wigan ECS move reverses there.
 
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Jamesrob637

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Northern won't acknowledge any Tweets about these being junk
I would say they won't acknowledge Tweets full stop, however they are good in other aspects.
 

Techniquest

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Now one's being faulty between Wilmslow and Stockport.

Definitely junk.

So *any* train that breaks down/suffers a fault anywhere could be classed as junk?

I happen to like the 769s, yes they are not the most reliable trains in the world but they are nowhere near junk. Now if the conversation was about 142s, I might have a different opinion!

My view is that 769s are nice to travel on, and by far and away that is the important factor. I've travelled on some less than pleasant trains before, in terms of overall passenger comfort, and the 769s are so much better in comparison. A shame they are not the most reliable trains out there.
 

Grumpy Git

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So *any* train that breaks down/suffers a fault anywhere could be classed as junk?

I happen to like the 769s, yes they are not the most reliable trains in the world but they are nowhere near junk. Now if the conversation was about 142s, I might have a different opinion!

My view is that 769s are nice to travel on, and by far and away that is the important factor. I've travelled on some less than pleasant trains before, in terms of overall passenger comfort, and the 769s are so much better in comparison. A shame they are not the most reliable trains out there.

I get your fondness for the train, but as a tool for carting passengers from A to B, 769's are most definitely a pile of s.crap. If you had a car that was twice as reliable, you'd get a refund.

Newport can't come soon enough.
 

Bikeman78

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I happen to like the 769s, yes they are not the most reliable trains in the world but they are nowhere near junk. Now if the conversation was about 142s, I might have a different opinion!
The average MTIN for the Northern and Welsh fleets are 944 and 1273 respectively. The Pacers were five or six times more reliable. Even the Cumbrian class 37s managed an MTIN in the 2000s.
 

fgwrich

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The average MTIN for the Northern and Welsh fleets are 944 and 1273 respectively. The Pacers were five or six times more reliable. Even the Cumbrian class 37s managed an MTIN in the 2000s.
Who knew, making them a straight DEMU makes them slightly more reliable! :lol: If the pitiful 944 MTIN is for a duel power Northern unit, then it makes me wonder how the GW versions will cope working off 3 different power systems.

To be honest, the whole thing has been a sorry saga - a prototype should have been built and tested first before Porterbrook went trigger happy with the order books. They've only got themselves to blame on this one!
 

Jamesrob637

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So *any* train that breaks down/suffers a fault anywhere could be classed as junk?

I happen to like the 769s, yes they are not the most reliable trains in the world but they are nowhere near junk. Now if the conversation was about 142s, I might have a different opinion!

My view is that 769s are nice to travel on, and by far and away that is the important factor. I've travelled on some less than pleasant trains before, in terms of overall passenger comfort, and the 769s are so much better in comparison. A shame they are not the most reliable trains out there.

Well if even the humble Pacer was five times more reliable, that kind of sums it up. Oh they're much better than a 2-car, but that's not much good when they're constantly having to be subbed by 2-car diesels!
 

Techniquest

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Well if even the humble Pacer was five times more reliable, that kind of sums it up. Oh they're much better than a 2-car, but that's not much good when they're constantly having to be subbed by 2-car diesels!

Valid point on the regular substitutions. If the 769s were more reliable, it would be fantastic. My point was more along the lines of their being called junk, when they're actually nice trains to travel on. When they work of course, and yes I have been the victim of 769s being subbed for 2 car 150/1s before now. Thankfully for me the journey did not have to be made on the 150, and I could change my plans to do something else.

TL,DR: 769s when they work are nice to travel on and do not deserve to be called junk. Unreliable, yes, but not junk!
 

samuelmorris

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A three figure MTIN beyond a very early bedding-in period is disgusting for mainline stock. If tube stock that has many of the modern fault-prone computer systems fitted, opens every single door on one side each time it stops, operates most of every day and makes short stops 20+ times an hour can achieve 50,000 MTIN, mainline stock with far less arduous duties being unable to achieve 1000 MTIN is outrageous. Imagine if a TOC had converted all 86 of the original 319s and got this sort of failure rate, think about how many units would be failing every single day...
 

AM9

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A three figure MTIN beyond a very early bedding-in period is disgusting for mainline stock. If tube stock that has many of the modern fault-prone computer systems fitted, opens every single door on one side each time it stops, operates most of every day and makes short stops 20+ times an hour can achieve 50,000 MTIN, mainline stock with far less arduous duties being unable to achieve 1000 MTIN is outrageous. Imagine if a TOC had converted all 86 of the original 319s and got this sort of failure rate, think about how many units would be failing every single day...
If all 86 319s were converted, the volume of work and consistency of what would be a production programme would have driven the infant mortality failures out earlier. Part of the problem with the 769s has been the relatively low rate of conversion, the number of different end products, the intermittent testing, mileage accumulation running and the availability of training drivers, - and of course the pandemic hasn't helped much at all.
 

samuelmorris

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If all 86 319s were converted, the volume of work and consistency of what would be a production programme would have driven the infant mortality failures out earlier. Part of the problem with the 769s has been the relatively low rate of conversion, the number of different end products, the intermittent testing, mileage accumulation running and the availability of training drivers, - and of course the pandemic hasn't helped much at all.
The pandemic definitely won't have helped, but almost half the fleet were converted, albeit for different operators, and it's been 5 years now, three of those years being pre-pandemic.
 

AM9

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The pandemic definitely won't have helped, but almost half the fleet were converted, albeit for different operators, and it's been 5 years now, three of those years being pre-pandemic.
But irrespective of how far they got before the pandeminc hit the railway, the actual quantities running were and still are very low and piecemeal conversion of anything is not likely to reveal common failure modes easily allowing them to be fixed to raise reliability.
 

FenMan

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Valid point on the regular substitutions. If the 769s were more reliable, it would be fantastic. My point was more along the lines of their being called junk, when they're actually nice trains to travel on. When they work of course, and yes I have been the victim of 769s being subbed for 2 car 150/1s before now. Thankfully for me the journey did not have to be made on the 150, and I could change my plans to do something else.

So, Northern have options when 769s fail.

But, on my line, the North Downs, there won't be any other options, as the previous 165 rolling stock will have been allocated to Bristol or Exeter.

No wonder GWR are being so careful.
 

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