CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[175001]

Again, it's drivers discretion. Eco mode will keep the service to time easily especially on the Chester - Leeds route as there's so much padding on that timetable.

 

[Bikeman78]

Similar setup to the 172 which has introduced an EMU like service on the Snow Hill lines without wiring it. Which probably made sense when they were built and diesel was still the favourite child, but of course I bet they're now wishing it'd been wired. But if you're stuck with diesel you can do worse.

I did a 172 up Lickey recently. Stopped at Bromsgrove, 45 mph at the summit. I was very impressed. A 150 just about got to 30 mph at the summit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2022 ==

They're also much better at climbing hills.

In my experience a 150 or 175 heading north from Abergavenny will reach Llanvihangel summit at around 45 mph. I was astonished that a 67 will get to 65 - 70 mph at the same point! I expect the 197s will be faster still.

 

[craigybagel]

In my experience a 150 or 175 heading north from Abergavenny will reach Llanvihangel summit at around 45 mph. I was astonished that a 67 will get to 65 - 70 mph at the same point! I expect the 197s will be faster still.

I suspect you're measuring a bit short of the summit - even 2 153s should be doing about 53 by the top. A good 3 car 175 will be close to 65 at the top. Not had the pleasure of going up Llanvihangel in a 67 yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if they could get faster than a 175 up there.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Reports that 197007 is now at Crewe after being at Donnington Rail Freight Terminal for storage.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Reports that 197007 is now at Crewe after being at Donnington Rail Freight Terminal for storage.

Any idea when that sneaked out? 011 came out on 14/3, and I've checked for other paths from 21st onwards and can't find one.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Any idea when that sneaked out? 011 came out on 14/3, and I've checked for other paths from 21st onwards and can't find one.

The reports were wrong. 197007 still at Donnington RFT as I went to check this morning.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2022 ==

TFW Class 197007 still at Donnington Rail Freight Terminal as of today (28/3/22) as I went to check this morning. The reports I had this morning are wrong. My information is now correct. My apologies for miss leading anyone.

 

[wobman]

I've seen on a few different 197s recently, I can say once the issues are resolved they will be great units.
It's just there's many issues with them at present, build quality is poor. If you see units out on test with red stickers on the body sides they are fault stickers.

The first route the 197s will run on is now the Bleanau branch ! The 2nd route being Chester to Liverpool, but nobody knows the service introduction date yet.....

 

[greyman42]

I've seen on a few different 197s recently, I can say once the issues are resolved they will be great units.
It's just there's many issues with them at present, build quality is poor. If you see units out on test with red stickers on the body sides they are fault stickers.

Are the build quality issues due to the Spanish bodyshells or the Newport fit out?

 

[wobman]

Are the build quality issues due to the Spanish bodyshells or the Newport fit out?

By the looks of things they are both to blame, lessons from the 195s haven't been learned by caf. Once the issues are eventually resolved they will be a huge improvement over the sprinters that tfw use, the toilet allocation is a backwards step though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Apr 2022 ==

The acceleration is amazing compared to sprinters, I was informed the 197s have different engines than the 196s and 195s.
The catering area is intriguing as the design uses lots of space but for very little gain. I'd love to see the reasoning for such a big catering area on a small unit.
The PIS screens are a great improvement for passengers, then there's the ASDO will be interesting to see it in action!

 

[Llandudno]

I've seen on a few different 197s recently, I can say once the issues are resolved they will be great units.
It's just there's many issues with them at present, build quality is poor. If you see units out on test with red stickers on the body sides they are fault stickers.

The first route the 197s will run on is now the Bleanau branch ! The 2nd route being Chester to Liverpool, but nobody knows the service introduction date yet.....

At least local coach operator Llew Jones can be on standby if there are any issues with the 197s on the Blaenau branch…!

 

[wobman]

At least local coach operator Llew Jones can be on standby if there are any issues with the 197s on the Blaenau branch…!

That will be the plan initially and maybe a rescue unit at the junction, as phase 1 of the introduction is the branch.

 

[Peter Sarf]

By the looks of things they are both to blame, lessons from the 195s haven't been learned by caf. Once the issues are eventually resolved they will be a huge improvement over the sprinters that tfw use, the toilet allocation is a backwards step though.

Perhaps it is the TOCs or ROSCOs that need to learn the lesson !.

Mind you I wonder, are the alternatives much better for the price ?.

 

[TravelDream]

By the looks of things they are both to blame, lessons from the 195s haven't been learned by caf. Once the issues are eventually resolved they will be a huge improvement over the sprinters that tfw use, the toilet allocation is a backwards step though.

Isn't the main thing how quickly and well these initial issues are ironed out?

It's basically unheard of for a train to begin its life with no issues at all.

 

[wobman]

Perhaps it is the TOCs or ROSCOs that need to learn the lesson !.

Mind you I wonder, are the alternatives much better for the price ?.

The caf units are still in the hands of the caf fitters and Rog drivers for mileage accumulation and fault free testing, the Rosco is the client still as none are in the hands of tfw yet.

 

[wobman]

It seems lessons are never learn with new rolling stock introduction

 

[Fidelis]

By the looks of things they are both to blame, lessons from the 195s haven't been learned by caf. Once the issues are eventually resolved they will be a huge improvement over the sprinters that tfw use, the toilet allocation is a backwards step though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Apr 2022 ==

The acceleration is amazing compared to sprinters, I was informed the 197s have different engines than the 196s and 195s.
The catering area is intriguing as the design uses lots of space but for very little gain. I'd love to see the reasoning for such a big catering area on a small unit.
The PIS screens are a great improvement for passengers, then there's the ASDO will be interesting to see it in action!

Published information says that they have the same MTU 12.8 litre engines however the 195 and 196 are rated at 523 hp (390Kw) and 197s at 503hp (375Kw) and all have a maxim speed of 100mph.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's basically unheard of for a train to begin its life with no issues at all.

Second and third builds from the same manufacturer (196, 197) should be better than the first build (195), or we (TOC, Rosco, manufacturer) are not learning lessons.
Apart from the cab ends, there's no obvious design differences between the models.

 

[wobman]

Published information says that they have the same MTU 12.8 litre engines however the 195 and 196 are rated at 523 hp (390Kw) and 197s at 503hp (375Kw) and all have a maxim speed of 100mph.

I was told by a caf fitter they are a different spec power pack, it's upgraded from previous mtu powerpacks. It's may just be mapping etc I know the Adblue consumption has been high but that may change a high quality diesel is being used now. I'm going from the information I was told.

 

[wobman]

Second and third builds from the same manufacturer (196, 197) should be better than the first build (195), or we (TOC, Rosco, manufacturer) are not learning lessons.
Apart from the cab ends, there's no obvious design differences between the models.

You would think so but it's not the case it seems, inside the 197s its the tfw spec that is different with the huge catering area and different seat configurations plus layout. Plus tfw have fitted guard door controls, which wmt are now having retro fitted.
The cab spec is very different from the 195s and the coupler is very different, the 195s and 197s can't even mechanically couple ! I know the 197s and 196s should be able to couple but only mechanically.

The dft are to blame for not having a standardised specification layer down for the civicity units.

 

[Jez]

By the looks of things they are both to blame, lessons from the 195s haven't been learned by caf. Once the issues are eventually resolved they will be a huge improvement over the sprinters that tfw use, the toilet allocation is a backwards step though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Apr 2022 ==

The acceleration is amazing compared to sprinters, I was informed the 197s have different engines than the 196s and 195s.
The catering area is intriguing as the design uses lots of space but for very little gain. I'd love to see the reasoning for such a big catering area on a small unit.
The PIS screens are a great improvement for passengers, then there's the ASDO will be interesting to see it in action!

They may be an improvement on the sprinters (153/158) but will they be an improvement on the 175s. Given that aside from the Birmingham/Cambrian services they are mostly replacing 175s.

 

[wobman]

They may be an improvement on the sprinters (153/158) but will they be an improvement on the 175s. Given that aside from the Birmingham/Cambrian services they are mostly replacing 175s.

Unfortunately the 175s are going, we will be seeing them for another year then they are due to leave. It's a shame as they are great long distance DMUs, but 197s are the future.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

They may be an improvement on the sprinters (153/158) but will they be an improvement on the 175s. Given that aside from the Birmingham/Cambrian services they are mostly replacing 175s.

Aren't the 175s rumoured to be going as well?

 

[wobman]

Aren't the 175s rumoured to be going as well?

Yes the plan is 175s will be gone in 12 months, plans can change though with TFW.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't the 175s rumoured to be going as well?

The 175s are leaving TfW, yes. This isn't a rumour.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 175s are leaving TfW, yes. This isn't a rumour.

185s are supposed to be leaving TPE as well, but they've managed to hang on to them all so far.
The 175 problem is that the depot at Chester will soon switch from an Alstom/175 operation to a CAF/197 one.
That poses a problem for their next TOC.
I find it hard to believe "GBR" will scrap any modern DMUs.

 

[wobman]

Tfw are saying it's a 1 x 197 into service and 1 x 175 out, I think the 175s will be staying for at least the 12 month lease extension.
The 175s new home will be longsight depot until they find a new permanent home, some senior staff from Chester have gone across already.

There's building work going on at Chester depot, one part of the build looks like an Adblue tank for the 197s.
There's a few caf staff based upstairs apparently

 

[Jacob Porrett]

The 175s are leaving TfW, yes. This isn't a rumour.

Thought so. Wonder who will have them if someone takes them?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Thought so. Wonder who will have them if someone takes them?

Nobody yet confirmed in the public domain AFAIK, but there has been many speculations in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-175-future-speculation.218095/

 

[sd0733]

The 175s are leaving TfW, yes. This isn't a rumour.

As I understand it the first 175 is currently planned to head off lease in September, obviously that's 197 introduction permitting.

 

[Pinus contorta]

How much of that ad blue does a typical new build DMU train get through a week? Anyone know?