387s weren’t built with it but it has been fitted to the Heathrow ones so should be straightforward when the time comes. 700s are also fitted in addition to the others you mention.
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CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.
- Thread starter hexagon789
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Makes sense given the Crewe will be resignaled as part of HS2 work which will involve some level of ERTMS.
realaledrinker
Member
- Joined
- 31 Dec 2017
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- 69
They’re so much quicker to 90 than a 175. I think they’re quicker than a 67 too but I’m not sure there. A 175 May or may not get to 90 (usually about 85) before it needs to brake at flint where as I got one of these to 90 from a stand at shotton by rockcliffe hall. That’s mightily impressive for those that don’t know where that is. I did have it on super power mode mind but I don’t think there’s too much difference in the 4 power modes.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Interesting to see both 3 car and 3 car training over there. TfW clearly ramping it up - as they need to, to avoid stockpiling new trains everywhere.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Similar setup to the 172 which has introduced an EMU like service on the Snow Hill lines without wiring it. Which probably made sense when they were built and diesel was still the favourite child, but of course I bet they're now wishing it'd been wired. But if you're stuck with diesel you can do worse.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
I am guessing the gearboxes allow much quicker acceleration than the torque converters on Sprinters.
As a matter of interest are you able to explain the four modes please ?
Also, I am assuming that all cars in a set change gear at the same time electronically, but is that prompted by the switched in lead unit through the TMS maybe ?
Peter Sarf
Established Member
And 197002 ?.
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Peter Sarf
Established Member
Thanks. I hope that the 197 will be introduced on time after training.
Let's see if the 197s are in service ready for the May TT introduction as TFW have said !
hexagon789
Veteran Member
The figures I have are (0-60mph):
67+load 6 (5 Mk3s+DVT): 179s
175: 103s
195 (standard power): 90s
195 (super power): 67s
They have a torque converter as well I understand, which is what the train starts in before switching to the gearbox at about 10-12mph.
The four modes refer to how quickly the train changes up through the gears, "Super Power" holds each gear the longest giving max acceleration but less fuel efficiency, "Eco" changes up quickest offering better fuel economy but slower acceleration. The other two modes are "Power" and "Standard" - so the four are (from greatest acceleration down to greatest fuel economy): "Super Power", "Power", "Standard" and "Eco".
I would imagine each car changes gear on its own, as wheels will wear at different rates and so on.
SuperLuke2334
Established Member
Can I just ask what the 'super power mode' is please? And whether that would be used in passenger service or not? E.g. is there only certain situations that it can be used in etc..
hexagon789
Veteran Member
On Northern 195s it is used all the time, and all it means is the unit holds each gear for the longest possible amount of time before changing up, giving maximum acceleration.
craigybagel
Established Member
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67s struggle at the low end, but once they get going and are settled on full power, they fly. I suspect that the 60-90 times for a 67 will be a lot more impressive than the 175s, and it's certainly my experience that they'll reach 90 from a station in a shorter distance. They're also much better at climbing hills. Climbing Gresford bank for example (between Chester and Wrexham), a 175 will need full power to hold the 60mph line speed. A Sprinter at full power will lose around 5mph climbing the hill, but with 4MKIIIs + DVT, a 67 would need to reduce power to avoid speeding. Not been able to experience it in a MKIV yet, but I'd be surprised if it were much different.
I'm looking forward to the long distance services all being either 197 or 67 operated - it could see some shorter journey times or at the very least more ability to make up delays, pathing permitting.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
I dont doubt you're right, I just don't have figures other than 0-60 unfortunately. Certainly the higher installed power should be better for hill climbing - 170s vs HSTs on the Highland Main Line seems a fair comparison.
Mk4s are about 8 tonnes heavier per coach, so I'd expect that to degrade performance noticeably enough.
The 197s will certainly be very capable on stop-start stuff
SuperLuke2334
Established Member
Many thanks for the explanation.
175001
On Moderation
Not all the time. Its drivers discretion to use SPW mode. I only tend to use it when we're late, or when one of the ARGs is isolated.
It's noticeable that there's still no passenger door steps fitted to the 197s....
hexagon789
Veteran Member
My apologies, in a previous thread on the Northern 195s a driver gave the impression SP was used all the time despite the unit defaulting to Eco:
This thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-195-technical-questions.200067/
175001
On Moderation
Not to worry. The default setting is eco mode. We have to go into the power pack page on the TCMS to select,one of superpower, power or normal mode.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
197s on local services sound like a positive change to me. I can't speak for many TfW services but on Northern it's not unusual for someone to attempt to use a laptop on a train that doesn't even have fold down tables or for someone to put a hot drink on the floor because there's no where else to put it.
They're absolute garbage. They're the only trains that shudder along lines perfectly smooth for the oldest of units. The interior fittings are poor quality and already falling apart. They have a poorly specified interior which no doubt will be exactly the same on the TFW versions and they'll be completely inappropriate for the routes they'll be used on, which in TFW world is: all routes.
Someone who doesn't use these awful trains or TFW will be along in a moment to tell me I'm wrong, probably with some rubbish about acceleration thrown in.
craigybagel
Established Member
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Do you actually read anything here before you post these tiresome rants? It's been obvious since day 1 that they won't have the same interior as the 195s - in the same way to answer one of your previous rants it's been obvious that there isn't going to be the same capacity issues that exist now, given the timetable enhancements and increased fleet size.
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I can’t answer your second question as the training doesn’t go that deep. TfW are just teaching what is needed to speed things up. It’s not something we’d need to know. The power modes have been answered correctly by hexagon, there’s about 400 revs difference between them. (Eco 1400 max revs, superpower 1800 max revs. These figures aren’t exact but close).
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We’ve been told at the minutes that we can use any mode we want. This is subject to change though. I didn’t feel much difference between them but when I drover the 3 car I did notice the middle car shut down in eco, presumably as the train was empty and light.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
The TfW mockups show a completely different interior to the Northern trains and the actual photos show a different front design.
I've used a new Northern train between Lancaster and Manchester and I found them much quieter and smoother than the old bangers we get on the Chester to Manchester line.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Which mode is standard practice then out of curiosity? "Normal"?
I ask as my first trip on one out of Chester utterly flew, we were about 2 early into Warrington I think. The 175 I had the other way seemed positively lethargic by comparison.
If the performance difference is so pronounced, TfW will have no problem tightens timings with the 197s in the future if desired.