Unions promise to fight bid to make rail staff work weekends

[muz379]

This for me is the essential issue with changing from Sundays as additional hours, ie overtime, to within the working week. The latter of course would give staff more time off, and the operator a more reliable Sunday service, but let's talk about money; Would those staff currently working Sundays as overtime shifts be happy to lose take home pay in return for fewer hours at work, or would the Unions demand an increase in basic pay to compensate ?

This fails to consider that different days off are considered as having different value to folk working in the industry .

At least among the majority I know weekend rest days are considered far more valuable than mid week ones. Hence why there's lower appetite for overtime on a Saturday which in some places can cause shortages of traincrew . Especially during summer when everyone is on holiday and daily leave is maxed out. Sure I'll volunteer for a Monday or a Wednesday but not a Saturday.

Hence compensating traincrew required to work Sundays with a load of monday-friday rest days might not necessarily be accepted without other trade offs by the company .

 

[wobman]

This for me is the essential issue with changing from Sundays as additional hours, ie overtime, to within the working week. The latter of course would give staff more time off, and the operator a more reliable Sunday service, but let's talk about money; Would those staff currently working Sundays as overtime shifts be happy to lose take home pay in return for fewer hours at work, or would the Unions demand an increase in basic pay to compensate ? Increasing the cost of running the railway, over and above what is already a massively subsidised industry, is unlikely to be popular.

I can't see any traincrew voting for a change in T&Cs without the pay being restructured, what's the incentive for people to vote for such a deal if there's no restructuring of the pay & T&Cs ?

 

[Horizon22]

This for me is the essential issue with changing from Sundays as additional hours, ie overtime, to within the working week. The latter of course would give staff more time off, and the operator a more reliable Sunday service, but let's talk about money; Would those staff currently working Sundays as overtime shifts be happy to lose take home pay in return for fewer hours at work, or would the Unions demand an increase in basic pay to compensate ? Increasing the cost of running the railway, over and above what is already a massively subsidised industry, is unlikely to be popular.

As the Unions are generally in favour, I imagine there is some acceptance that overtime for those that smash every Sunday going will be slightly worse off as a result!

That being said whichever way you try and bring Sundays into the working week will increase costs but certain people in the DfT don't seem to appreciate this.

 

[Starmill]

That being said whichever way you try and bring Sundays into the working week will increase costs but certain people in the DfT don't seem to appreciate this.

To be fair to them, I think that the fact that this is being briefed in the Telegraph shows precisely that they do appreciate it. It's just that their view is that they won't engage with the industry on their own terms. Indeed the view seems to be that they're owed a favour for keeping the railway going so comprehensively, and this is it.

 

[Horizon22]

To be fair to them, I think that the fact that this is being briefed in the Telegraph shows precisely that they do appreciate it. It's just that their view is that they won't engage with the industry on their own terms. Indeed the view seems to be that they're owed a favour for keeping the railway going so comprehensively, and this is it.

Possibly but its not like train crew had much of a say in how things operated over the pandemic. Yes the RMT campaigned to have no furlough and were successful (except open access) but ultimately the DfT could have decided to do this if they wanted for those deemed not to be "key workers"

 

[Craig1122]

This for me is the essential issue with changing from Sundays as additional hours, ie overtime, to within the working week. The latter of course would give staff more time off, and the operator a more reliable Sunday service, but let's talk about money; Would those staff currently working Sundays as overtime shifts be happy to lose take home pay in return for fewer hours at work, or would the Unions demand an increase in basic pay to compensate ? Increasing the cost of running the railway, over and above what is already a massively subsidised industry, is unlikely to be popular.

It's actually a similar debate to fares reform in some ways. If it's not going to cost more money overall there will be winners & losers. Inevitably the losers will shout louder. So it ends up being kicked into the long grass as too difficult and everyone muddles along as they are.

 

[43066]

Well I don't work 9-5 and I believe every TOC should have Sunday working inside for crew and that should be accepted as a modern way of running the railway. However, I appreciate it costs money to do so and those at the DfT seem to want to have their cake and eat it and don't seem to
grasp the financial realities of striving for this.

Well quite.

As I’ve said throughout my Sundays are inside so I personally don’t have a problem with working on Sundays. Overall I’m not convinced the demand is there for a Saturday service on a Sunday, and we will still need one day per week where closures for engineering take place as it can’t all be done at night/on bank holidays . It does seem like a bit of an obsession on here, perhaps more so than for the average passenger. There’s an element of railway enthusiasts who work Monday to Friday, wanting the network to be at their beck and call to spend the weekend bashing trains, perhaps!?

This for me is the essential issue with changing from Sundays as additional hours, ie overtime, to within the working week. The latter of course would give staff more time off, and the operator a more reliable Sunday service, but let's talk about money; Would those staff currently working Sundays as overtime shifts be happy to lose take home pay in return for fewer hours at work, or would the Unions demand an increase in basic pay to compensate ? Increasing the cost of running the railway, over and above what is already a massively subsidised industry, is unlikely to be popular.

Anything which reduces reliance on overtime will increase the cost of running the railway. If you completely eliminated overtime you’d need to employ a lot more traincrew, many of whom would end up sitting spare.

What appears to be being suggested is that traincrew with Sundays outside should face an arbitrary change of their Ts and Cs and be forced to start coming to work on Sundays for no extra recompense. Again how many 9-5ers would be happy if their boss said, “we’re modernising the business, one of your working days is now Sunday. No extra pay. Lump it.”

And before somebody inevitably pipes up and says “I sometimes log on to catch up with my emails at weekends when it’s quiet”, we’re talking about full length train crew shifts with a set start and end time, often at the extreme ends of the day.

 

[wobman]

Another point people that work on the railways point out is that Sundays are a busy time for maintenance, I walk into work on Sundays to see blockades quite often and amended diagrams with cancelled routes or turnbacks at some stations.

Tocs could end with messrooms full of spare staff if a full Sunday service is implemented, the trains I drive on a Sunday are very quiet until around 10am then they get busy.
There's no demand for 4am to 9am services on Sundays, what passengers want is longer and more frequent trains at the busier times.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There's no demand for 4am to 9am services on Sundays

At least locally to me, I'd argue there is simply no way of knowing that because current services don't start until fairly late on in the day as it is.
As an example, the very first Bath Spa to Bristol Temple Meads service on a Sunday is 9.21am.
Of course "there's no demand" when there are literally no services before that time.

So I don't think it's valid to say people don't want to travel by train on a Sunday morning, because a lot of people CAN'T travel by train on a Sunday morning to do what they want to do.

Exactly this.

 

[wobman]

At least locally to me, I'd argue there is simply no way of knowing that because current services don't start until fairly late on in the day as it is.
As an example, the very first Bath Spa to Bristol Temple Meads service on a Sunday is 9.21am.
Of course "there's no demand" when there are literally no services before that time.

We have 8am and 9am services on Sundays and they are empty, Sunday services which in the weekdays serv the commuters won't have the passengers to fill the seats.

Passenger flows just don't justify very early Sunday services such as 4am services that comes from working on Sundays for 20yrs, I know times are changing but shops and attractions don't open early on Sundays.

A recent Sunday I was in and we had engineering work until 8am again, it predicably over ran. It happen quite regularly on Sundays.

 

[Horizon22]

Another point people that work on the railways point out is that Sundays are a busy time for maintenance, I walk into work on Sundays to see blockades quite often and amended diagrams with cancelled routes or turnbacks at some stations.

Tocs could end with messrooms full of spare staff if a full Sunday service is implemented, the trains I drive on a Sunday are very quiet until around 10am then they get busy.
There's no demand for 4am to 9am services on Sundays, what passengers want is longer and more frequent trains at the busier times.

Overall I’m not convinced the demand is there for a Saturday service on a Sunday, and we will still need one day per week where closures for engineering take place as it can’t all be done at night/on bank holidays . It does seem like a bit of an obsession on here, perhaps more so than for the average passenger. There’s an element of railway enthusiasts who work Monday to Friday, wanting the network to be at their beck and call to spend the weekend bashing trains, perhaps!?

I don't think that having Sundays inside means we move to a Saturday service necessarily or that maintenance be cut back (although Network Rail are reportedly looking at weekend posessions now that leisure travel is a more substantial element but personally can't see a way around it). But I think the best move would be for a middle ground between what current timetables are and the M-F service, utilising stock more efficiently and with full formations (no excuses to keep trains in depots and sidings as Sunday trains are increasingly busy), potential for an earlier start up and a more reliable service for those trains that are booked to run.

Personally, I think Saturdays have the potential (and indeed have been) more of an issue as although that's in the normal working week, where there are crew shortages there are issues. Naturally there are fewer volunteers for overtime/RDW as crew may want to do things with friends and family when they are also off, but the aim is normally to run a standard service on Saturday. This can inveitably lead to cancellations.

 

[bramling]

Well quite.

As I’ve said throughout my Sundays are inside so I personally don’t have a problem with working on Sundays. Overall I’m not convinced the demand is there for a Saturday service on a Sunday, and we will still need one day per week where closures for engineering take place as it can’t all be done at night/on bank holidays . It does seem like a bit of an obsession on here, perhaps more so than for the average passenger. There’s an element of railway enthusiasts who work Monday to Friday, wanting the network to be at their beck and call to spend the weekend bashing trains, perhaps!?

Have to say I’ve wondered about the latter point. The numbers of people who use rail on a Sunday is but a small fraction of the population (and lest we remember that much of the population never or rarely uses trains at all). Away from here I don’t think I’ve heard anyone clamouring for more weekend services. There’s a few people at work who would like to be able to travel in by train at weekends, but don’t for various reasons, they just accept it as one of those facts of life.

Speaking for myself, as someone who doesn’t really use trains at weekends for various reasons, it’s natural that I’m not particularly interested in seeing rising fares, or indirectly rising taxation, to subsidise this. And I should reiterate that this is my view as a taxpayer or farepayer, so not a case of industry burying head in sand. Weekday services are considerably more valuable all round.

 

[Horizon22]

Have to say I’ve wondered about the latter point. The numbers of people who use rail on a Sunday is but a small fraction of the population (and lest we remember that much of the population never or rarely uses trains at all). Away from here I don’t think I’ve heard anyone clamouring for more weekend services. There’s a few people at work who would like to be able to travel in by train at weekends, but don’t for various reasons, they just accept it as one of those facts of life.

Speaking for myself, as someone who doesn’t really use trains at weekends for various reasons, it’s natural that I’m not particularly interested in seeing rising fares, or indirectly rising taxation, to subsidise this. And I should reiterate that this is my view as a taxpayer or farepayer, so not a case of industry burying head in sand. Weekday services are considerably more valuable all round.

I suppose this is somewhat chicken and egg though - do passengers not use the service because it is so poor or is the service so poor because passengers don't want to use it? This isn't evenn bringing in the perception of Sundays amongst much of the general public as "rail replacement and cancellations". I would personally think its the latter and that Sunday has surpressed demand as culturally things have changed over time - certainly based on the amount of shift workers who decide (have) to drive because there's no other option.

 

[bramling]

I suppose this is somewhat chicken and egg though - do passengers not use the service because it is so poor or is the service so poor because passengers don't want to use it? This isn't even bringing in the perception of Sundays amongst much of the general public as "rail replacement and cancellations". I would personally think its the latter and that Sunday has suppressed demand as culturally things have changed over time - certainly based on the amount of shift workers who decide (have) to drive because there's no other option.

There is, possibly, another factor - which is that many people choose to drive on a weekend because they *want* to, and because ostensibly (*) there's less chance of getting caught in traffic. Many of these people would, in an ideal world, rather drive in the week too, but are dissuaded from doing so because of rush-hour traffic.

(* I choose wording carefully, as for my journeys weekends can actually be more unpredictable. But nothing compares to driving in rush hours, and this remains the case post-Covid - a couple of weeks ago when I was on a weekday 9-5 training course it took me nearly two hours to drive home, for a journey which would take a fairly reliably 35 mins off-peak).

I'd say the railway's bigger problem is that it - or rather the DFT as this is where most of this seems to have emanated from - has spent the last decade or more doing much that has made rail travel less attractive, taking for granted what were constantly increasing passenger numbers, the constant increase in numbers being largely brought about by external factors. Emphasis on quality has been patchy at best. My local rail service, for example, has all the quality of a bendy-bus, so if it's a viable choice between the BMW outside or the class 700 at the station, the former is going to win hands-down. Now we have a catch-22 that there's no money to pay for quality improvements. To be honest, I feel weekend provision should be the last of anyone's concerns.

 

[43066]

Personally, I think Saturdays have the potential (and indeed have been) more of an issue as although that's in the normal working week, where there are crew shortages there are issues. Naturally there are fewer volunteers for overtime/RDW as crew may want to do things with friends and family when they are also off, but the aim is normally to run a standard service on Saturday. This can inveitably lead to cancellations.

You’ve alighted on a very valid point. Personally I find Saturdays by far and away the worst day of the week to be at work. Diagrams tend to be intense because, although the service is reduced, there are fewer crew at work so those who are in are spread very thinly. Lots of people travel throughout the day from mid morning onwards, then add in the mix of football matches, stag dos and of course a lot more drunks around and all the associated anti social behaviour.

Sundays you can often end up with a token service and far fewer travelling, which makes for a far more relaxed day out! Having worked services starting quite early on Sunday (more so at my last TOC) very few people are generally wanting to travel before 0900 on Sunday - appreciate this will vary by location, though, and will be influenced by long established general unreliability of the service due to engineering and sparse timetables.

Weekday services are considerably more valuable all round.

Indeed. Obviously weekends are key for leisure and long distance, but most parts of the railway still remain busier during the week, certainly based on what those with access to the relevant figures have posted on here. Hence if you have to choose a day to have engineering possessions, it’s likely to remain weekends, and especially Sundays, which often remain a day for people to relax and not venture too far from home.

 

[bramling]

Indeed. Obviously weekends are key for leisure and long distance, but most parts of the railway still remain busier during the week, certainly based on what those with access to the relevant figures have posted on here. Hence if you have to choose a day to have engineering possessions, it’s likely to remain weekends, and especially Sundays, which often remain a day for people to relax and not venture too far from home.

If we take something like the Thameslink GN side, there's a virtually overnight service for six nights of the week (I say virtually, but the last down service reaches Peterborough at almost the time the first up service leaves, so the gap in between is pretty minimal). In order to provide these early-morning and late-night services - the early ones in particular are well used by shift workers - cyclical Sunday morning engineering work is inevitable. Covid has blinkered society, but we all need to reflect on and remember what keeps the wheels of society turning, and it isn't people going for a jolly to Primark on a Sunday!

 

[baz962]

If we take something like the Thameslink GN side, there's a virtually overnight service for six nights of the week (I say virtually, but the last down service reaches Peterborough at almost the time the first up service leaves, so the gap in between is pretty minimal). In order to provide these early-morning and late-night services - the early ones in particular are well used by shift workers - cyclical Sunday morning engineering work is inevitable. Covid has blinkered society, but we all need to reflect on and remember what keeps the wheels of society turning, and it isn't people going for a jolly to Primark on a Sunday!

I use Thameslink on the other side from Bedford. I have to be at work in London at around 9 some Sundays and so will be on a Thameslink around 07.30 or between 8-9 and they are very quiet.

 

[riceuten]

We are now in a society without substantial unemployment, and it is likely to become increasingly difficult to find large numbers of staff willing to work unsocial hours without enormous bonuses in the form of increased pay, holiday and such.

We live in a society where a considerable number of people are on insecure, zero hours contracts. The difficulty lies in obtaining staff because terms and conditions are normally dreadful, and the attitude of way too many people is "YOU SHOULD BE GLAD TO HAVE A JOB". How awful that staff inconsiderately want paying, leave and other social benefits. They should donate their time for nothing

This is likely the labour-tight society we can expect to live in for at least the next several decades due to demographic factors.

Labour tight is a myth

The best way the railway can deal with this is by attempting to use technology to reduce staffing requirements wherever possible.

Sack all the drivers and conductors - they might join a union

 

[mandub]

Possibly but its not like train crew had much of a say in how things operated over the pandemic. Yes the RMT campaigned to have no furlough and were successful (except open access) but ultimately the DfT could have decided to do this if they wanted for those deemed not to be "key workers"

Yep.
Easy to say now that we were "lucky" to not get furloughed in the 1st Covid wave.
But believe me plenty of us didn't feel lucky to be coming into work with little or no idea how deadly this virus was.
We were told to come to work, no choice to stay home on reduced pay or a leave of absence.

 

[dk1]

I didn’t know that any union campaigned for no furlough. We just kept on working them trains. Just thought it was that the DfT wanted the railway to keep running & obviously there are training & operating consequences when not doing so. Saying that however, many of my colleagues would’ve been quite happy not to come in even though the monthly pay packet would’ve taken one hell of a hit unless it was topped up.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Was it in Scotland there was historical religious intolerance of any work being carried out on a Sunday?

 

[HSTEd]

Labour tight is a myth

The demographic reality is there will be increasing shortage of workers from now on.

 

[bramling]

The demographic reality is there will be increasing shortage of workers from now on.

Certainly being noticed & felt at my place.

There's no shortage of applicants, but it's certainly starting to be found that there's a shortage of quality ones who can meet the required standards. In an industry where there's quite strict requirements for certain roles, this is a problem. Remember that medical requirements will rule a proportion of people out of even applying for certain roles.

Train driver in particular requires a quite specific type of person. Same for certain types of control positions. It is these two areas which are going to experience problems - in many places they already are. This will possibly upset some people here, however salaries are pretty certain to have to rise in order to attract and retain people, if mass shortages of staff are to be avoided.

 

[Robertj21a]

Quite possible. Will at least encourage a careful review of each and every position in every company - what would be the effect if it was changed or removed etc. Will also encourage much more automation wherever that is deemed appropriate.

 

[riceuten]

The demographic reality is there will be increasing shortage of workers from now on.

Do provide us with proof of your postulation. Hysterical doom-laden articles in the Daily Telegraph don't count.

 

[bramling]

Do provide us with proof of your postulation. Hysterical doom-laden articles in the Daily Telegraph don't count.

My place:

* Vacancies galore for a number of roles. This was already the case before Covid.
* People successful in recruitment process failing training.
* People leaving to do other things, especially which don’t involve shift work.
* Having to scrape the barrel in some cases (in other words, people passing training who on an ideal world wouldn’t).

 

[TheEdge]

Do provide us with proof of your postulation. Hysterical doom-laden articles in the Daily Telegraph don't count.

Look at the ONS UK population pyramid. Its narrowing at the bottom, that's going to lead to less and less people of working age. Younger people, millennials and Gen Z, are either having children much later or choosing not to. Its economic pressure, such as cripplingly low wages and poor work life balance, that is pushing that.

 

[bramling]

Look at the ONS UK population pyramid. Its narrowing at the bottom, that's going to lead to less and less people of working age. Younger people, millennials and Gen Z, are either having children much later or choosing not to. Its economic pressure, such as cripplingly low wages and poor work life balance, that is pushing that.

Structural problems which have been present for 30 years or so, and on which governments have buried their heads in the sand.

A lot of this stems from the massive inflation in house prices over this period, with “build more houses” simply not viable as a solution in a country which is already more densely populated than ideal.

It probably won’t have helped that we’ve just spent the best part of two years further imposing burden on younger people in order to support older generations, especially in ways we didn’t really need to, and certainly not for the length of time we did, and certainly not once all the most vulnerable were vaccinated.

Blair focussed on cheap unskilled labour, which was fine for providing cafes or hand car washes. It’s done nothing for providing more skilled work. Another example is finding skilled tradespeople, especially in the south-east.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

It probably won’t have helped that we’ve just spent the best part of two years further imposing burden on younger people in order to support older generations, especially in ways we didn’t really need to, and certainly not for the length of time we did, and certainly not once all the most vulnerable were vaccinated.

That's an unbalanced assessment of the current situation. For several years now in this country, we have had absurdly low interest rates to maintain our economy on life support. This has benefitted people with mortgages but damaged older people with life savings. Many of those older people remember the interest rates they paid on their mortgages.

 

[robert thomas]

Have to say I’ve wondered about the latter point. The numbers of people who use rail on a Sunday is but a small fraction of the population (and lest we remember that much of the population never or rarely uses trains at all). Away from here I don’t think I’ve heard anyone clamouring for more weekend services. There’s a few people at work who would like to be able to travel in by train at weekends, but don’t for various reasons, they just accept it as one of those facts of life.

Speaking for myself, as someone who doesn’t really use trains at weekends for various reasons, it’s natural that I’m not particularly interested in seeing rising fares, or indirectly rising taxation, to subsidise this. And I should reiterate that this is my view as a taxpayer or farepayer, so not a case of industry burying head in sand. Weekday services are considerably more valuable all round.

In most continental countries Saturday & Sunday services are broadly in line with those on a weekday except for the morning & evening peaks. As a result early morning services are well used at weekends by people travelling out for the day.