Unions promise to fight bid to make rail staff work weekends

[Horizon22]

You know as well as I do that the suggestion upthread that TOCs are currently paying people to sit at home has absolutely no basis in reality, and I can only assume the poster has made it up. It’s also worth pointing out (again) that many train crew already work Sundays, myself included, so the premise of the article, that train crew are inflexible and refuse to work weekends, is a lie.

Actually sitting spare where I am is a rarity and even the standby turns get used 50% of the time… So the idea of people regularly being paid to sit at home is laughable.

Oh yes. But I was giving the post above the benefit of the doubt in that it certainly did happen, just the info is now (quite) out of date.

It's very much a mixed bag which is no doubt what the DfT sees as a bit mad that some places its completely normal, other TOCs completely outside the week and a mix in between (see here). And of course this can change within TOCs as well as T&Cs have merged, adapted and been altered due to privatisation. I think it's somewhat understandable - especially to an outsider - that there should be some harmony and questioning why there isn't consistency within the railway regarding Sundays.

 

[43066]

I think it's somewhat understandable - especially to an outsider - that there should be some harmony and questioning why there isn't consistency within the railway regarding Sundays.

Perhaps. But what irks somewhat, as with many of these discussions, is the default assumption by some posters on here that it’s traincrew and unions who are at fault in the current mess (sadly the general impression I get is that we are regarded by many on here as lazy/stupid/overpaid/greedy, and some clearly won’t be happy until we were all on minimum wage zero hours contracts).

The idea that train crew are inflexible given the extreme shifts we work is frankly laughable, and I’d be interested to know how many of the armchair critics are currently working from home Monday to Friday 9-5…

 

[bramling]

Equally we can't have train crew arguing that they are "key workers" on the one hand but baulking at Sunday working on the other.

It was the government who floated the “key worker” tag, during that brief period when certain people (not just rail staff) were all things wonderful, when the government needed them to go to work to keep society functioning, whilst everyone else was sheltering at home for their safety.

 

[O L Leigh]

In my experience of this method at two TOCs, there is no way of getting a booked one off. The handful of volunteers get used to cover sickness and leave and everyone else is in.

Problematic if you have a wedding to attend on a Saturday and no way of getting your 05.30 start Sunday off.

In three years of this system somebody I know has tried to get out of working precisely one booked Sunday shift to do something with family, and was unable to.

I am very well aware that it is a far from perfect system and have previously described it as “the best compromise” for staff, employers and passengers. Clearly it becomes less ideal if there is no spare cover on a Sunday (something we’ve always had where I’ve worked).

As for your colleague not getting his one Sunday off in three years, that’s just bad luck that he clearly wanted one that couldn’t be covered. That doesn’t mean that the system does not work.

As I’ve mentioned, sometimes you’ve got to be proactive and go looking for the cover yourself rather than just sitting back and hoping that rosters will cover it for you. To that end we have a WhatsApp group where Sundays needing cover can be floated and cover sought and consequently have a much higher success rate of getting Sundays covered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I’ve mentioned, sometimes you’ve got to be proactive and go looking for the cover yourself rather than just sitting back and hoping that rosters will cover it for you. To that end we have a WhatsApp group where Sundays needing cover can be floated and cover sought and consequently have a much higher success rate of getting Sundays covered.

That's a good idea. A quick popup message midweek saying "We need drivers for this Sunday, you'll get double* time, reply with your staff number if you want it" has far more chance of success than a bureaucratic, passive process to signing up.

* Or whatever is offered. If short, it does help to offer better than contracted - plenty of businesses do that!

 

[43066]

That's a good idea. A quick popup message midweek saying "We need drivers for this Sunday, you'll get double* time, reply with your staff number if you want it" has far more chance of success than a bureaucratic, passive process to signing up.

* Or whatever is offered. If short, it does help to offer better than contracted - plenty of businesses do that!

It won’t be the company running the WhatsApp group, it’ll be the drivers doing it amongst themselves (we have similar). Resources do make begging calls when they’re really desperate!

 

[O L Leigh]

Equally we can't have train crew arguing that they are "key workers" on the one hand but baulking at Sunday working on the other.

Who’s arguing that they are? As for baulking at Sundays, how did all those trains move yesterday?

Regrettably both of your statements are totally nonsensical and have no bearing on the discussion. No matter what the DfT say, irrespective of the headlines put out by partisan media, traincrew are happily working their weekends when rostered, sacrificing time they could be spending instead with family or friends or in pursuing leisure activities. There is no recalcitrance. We do not need forcing back to work at bayonet point. So please, let’s keep the discussion realistic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2022 ==

It won’t be the company running the WhatsApp group, it’ll be the drivers doing it amongst themselves (we have similar). Resources do make begging calls when they’re really desperate!

Correct.

 

[bramling]

That's a good idea. A quick popup message midweek saying "We need drivers for this Sunday, you'll get double* time, reply with your staff number if you want it" has far more chance of success than a bureaucratic, passive process to signing up.

* Or whatever is offered. If short, it does help to offer better than contracted - plenty of businesses do that!

Where is the money coming from for this double time? Double fares on Sunday?

 

[O L Leigh]

No, but it is either a public utility or it is not.

The enormous levels of public subsidy suggest it is a public utility to me, and not something which only exists becuase of market forces.

The railway cannot abdicate its mission to be a social good or it’ll die, eventually.

It doesn't matter. Even "public utilities" (whatever they are) must consult with their staff regarding any changes to their terms of employment.

 

[Starmill]

The difference being the 24/7/365 NHS is essential to keep people alive.

Is continuous running of the railway going result in lives being saved ?

The one of the things which the NHS pay structure takes account of is any requirement to work unsocial hours too. The uplift that results is unlikely to be very big but it's there. That said pay in most non-doctor roles will generally be some way behind pay in the railway.

 

[wobman]

Where is the money coming from for this double time? Double fares on Sunday?

Well I know that I don't get double time on Sundays, we get time and 1/3rd as an incentive. Mainly because the jobs aren't cushy and the toc need volunteers to fill the non filled diagrams.

 

[wobman]

The one of the things which the NHS pay structure takes account of is any requirement to work unsocial hours too. The uplift that results is unlikely to be very big but it's there. That said pay in most non-doctor roles will generally be some way behind pay in the railway.

I have friends that work in the NHS in operational and administration roles I can assure you that get paid well and they deserve to. but I don't see the relevance of this to the discussion, the industries are not comparable. My friends work fixed shift patterns in the NHS, as a driver I don't its either lates or earlies eithier booked turns or jobs from spare with 2 or 3hrs movement. Today I'm in 5am tomorrow 9am one a 8hr shift the second a 9.30hr shift, there's no patterns to my shifts.

 

[Horizon22]

Even peak pandemic when you included the massive spike in sickness/isolation leaving work needing covering there wasn't a huge amount of it going on.

I think I managed it twice.

Not saying there was a lot, but I definitely had an overview and where I was, there were somewhere between 0-3 at the largest depots on a given day. But as I said, that ended a while back as it was effectively useless and more trains needed covering.

 

[bramling]

The one of the things which the NHS pay structure takes account of is any requirement to work unsocial hours too. The uplift that results is unlikely to be very big but it's there. That said pay in most non-doctor roles will generally be some way behind pay in the railway.

The NHS is certainly not 24/7, though. Whilst essential services are provided out of hours, the likes of GP surgeries work essentially daytime hours only, and hospitals can be like ghost towns in the evening or on a weekend.

Essential services provided 24/7 absolutely, but scaled back out of hours. Considering many Saturday railway timetables offer only slightly less mileage than weekdays (especially since Covid), one could make a case to say that the railway's "out of hours" provision is significantly better than the NHS's.

Meanwhile, I paid in a cheque to my bank on Thursday, it's now Monday and I'm still waiting for it to clear. Definitely no 24/7 service there. One could certainly make a case to say that financial business is just as much an essential service as transport provision.

 

[WelshBluebird]

All this talk about comparing the railways to other industries / the NHS etc does somewhat miss a massive bit of detail though. The railways have had a massive hit to passenger numbers and fare income due to COVID and one of the areas reviving / growing faster is leisure travel. The railway really does need to grasp that reality IMO. And largely that does mean better provisions for services on the weekends and evenings. If the railway can jump on that demand and cater for it then it will be a success, but if it buries itself in the sand and pretends that isn't happening, well I think there will be some dark days over the next 10-20 years or so.

The short version of what I've said above is basically that the railways in the UK need to adapt to changing travel patterns and part of that will have to be to offer better services in the evenings and on the weekends.

However the above doesn't need to (and shouldn't) come into conflict with the shift patterns and T&C's of existing railway staff.

 

[riceuten]

From today's Telegraph.

"Unions vow to fight measures aimed at making bailed-out industry more efficient"

Access Restricted

Have the RMT changed their mind in wanting Sundays part of the working week?

No loaded phrases there, eh ? "Measures aimed at making bailed-out industry more efficient" could have been cut and pasted from a TOC's press release.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2022 ==

The Newspapers have an agenda regarding railways staff, so I tend to take there articles with a pinch of salt......

Definitely.

Cue "it's not a proper job/they are vastly overpaid/they should be glad to have work" and sundry other cliches

 

[bramling]

All this talk about comparing the railways to other industries / the NHS etc does somewhat miss a massive bit of detail though. The railways have had a massive hit to passenger numbers and fare income due to COVID and one of the areas reviving / growing faster is leisure travel. The railway really does need to grasp that reality IMO. And largely that does mean better provisions for services on the weekends and evenings. If the railway can jump on that demand and cater for it then it will be a success, but if it buries itself in the sand and pretends that isn't happening, well I think there will be some dark days over the next 10-20 years or so.

As has been pointed out before, a packed Sprinter to a major city or shopping centre on a Saturday morning does not in itself prove that leisure travel is booming to the point of being rail's saviour.

I believe it's the case that Friday is still the busiest day of the week for rail travel, and in terms of numbers is significantly higher than Sunday usage. Sunday mornings in particular remain very quiet.

Many people have returned to the office, and many more will be doing so over the coming weeks and months, whether they like it or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sunday mornings have always been quiet, probably the quietest time of the week. This is because most people only go and do leisure things e.g. shopping after lunch, as most of them don't open in the morning.

Sunday afternoons and early evening are very busy with weekend away traffic and weekly commuting, probably the second busiest time of the week on the IC railway after Friday evening.

 

[HSTEd]

We are now in a society without substantial unemployment, and it is likely to become increasingly difficult to find large numbers of staff willing to work unsocial hours without enormous bonuses in the form of increased pay, holiday and such.

This is likely the labour-tight society we can expect to live in for at least the next several decades due to demographic factors.

The best way the railway can deal with this is by attempting to use technology to reduce staffing requirements wherever possible.

 

[WelshBluebird]

As has been pointed out before, a packed Sprinter to a major city or shopping centre on a Saturday morning does not in itself prove that leisure travel is booming to the point of being rail's saviour.

How about a packed double Voyager between Bristol and Birmingham on Sunday afternoons - a route that used to be packed single Voyagers before COVID. Or a packed 9 or 10 carriage IET from Bristol Temple Meads to London on a Saturday as people venture to both London and Bath. Both examples I've experienced over recent months.

I believe it's the case that Friday is still the busiest day of the week for rail travel, and in terms of numbers is significantly higher than Sunday usage. Sunday mornings in particular remain very quiet.

Fridays are probably the busiest because you have both the commuting demand AND the leisure demand (as people get away for the weekend etc) so using it as a way of trying to prove the leisure market isn't that important strikes me as a bit odd!

Many people have returned to the office, and many more will be doing so over the coming weeks and months, whether they like it or not.

And many many people haven't and won't, and the railways have to adapt to that. Burying your head in the sand like you are doing is not going to last long.

 

[deltic]

As has been pointed out before, a packed Sprinter to a major city or shopping centre on a Saturday morning does not in itself prove that leisure travel is booming to the point of being rail's saviour.

I believe it's the case that Friday is still the busiest day of the week for rail travel, and in terms of numbers is significantly higher than Sunday usage. Sunday mornings in particular remain very quiet.

Many people have returned to the office, and many more will be doing so over the coming weeks and months, whether they like it or not.

While London Underground is a different beast, Thursday is the busiest day followed in order by Wednesday, Tuesday, Friday, Saturday, Monday and some way behind Sunday

 

[Need2]

and I’d be interested to know how many of the armchair critics are currently working from home Monday to Friday 9-5…

The silence is deafening on that thought!

The point keeps getting ignored in this thread though, continual blame of staff and union yet time and time and time again the “driver and union bashers” have been told that it’s the TOC’s who don’t want it.
The silence on this thought is also deafening!

 

[Horizon22]

Sunday mornings have always been quiet, probably the quietest time of the week. This is because most people only go and do leisure things e.g. shopping after lunch, as most of them don't open in the morning.

Sunday afternoons and early evening are very busy with weekend away traffic and weekly commuting, probably the second busiest time of the week on the IC railway after Friday evening.

Sunday mornings are indeed relatively quiet but the startup is always very late for anything even moderatly long-distance, especially for shift work. It is a good time to get a few hours extra maintenance in though. You're certainly right about afternoons and evenings though and reduced Sunday services compared to a Saturday does lead to crowding issues.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2022 ==

Perhaps. But what irks somewhat, as with many of these discussions, is the default assumption by some posters on here that it’s traincrew and unions who are at fault in the current mess (sadly the general impression I get is that we are regarded by many on here as lazy/stupid/overpaid/greedy, and some clearly won’t be happy until we were all on minimum wage zero hours contracts).

The idea that train crew are inflexible given the extreme shifts we work is frankly laughable, and I’d be interested to know how many of the armchair critics are currently working from home Monday to Friday 9-5…

The silence is deafening on that thought!

The point keeps getting ignored in this thread though, continual blame of staff and union yet time and time and time again the “driver and union bashers” have been told that it’s the TOC’s who don’t want it.
The silence on this thought is also deafening!

Well I don't work 9-5 and I believe every TOC should have Sunday working inside for crew and that should be accepted as a modern way of running the railway. However, I appreciate it costs money to do so and those at the DfT seem to want to have their cake and eat it and don't seem to grasp the financial realities of striving for this.

 

[Craig1122]

Some years ago I worked for a TOC that attempted to bring Sunday inside the working week for station staff. At the same time they tried to balance out a higher basic with removing some of the premiums for anti social hours.

They'd clearly tried to balance things up to be cost neutral. In effect anyone just working their contracted hours would have gained while anyone working over time lost out. Pretty much no one was happy with the offer made and the TOC certainly weren't happy with upping their offer so the whole idea was quietly dropped. As they had a chronic problem filling vacancies at the time it was probably just as well given that people would have been unlikely to volunteer to work as much overtime without the enhanced rated offered.

The rosters being worked were effectively inherited from BR. To echo a point that's been made again & again there was no realistic way to cover every job without paying overtime as the pool of 'spare' staff to cover vacancies, sickness, leave etc was far too small. Demonstrating that for many years going back pre privatisation it's been a management decision to run a tight roster as overall it's cheaper and more flexible to pay overtime than increase headcount.

 

[Phil56]

Sunday mornings have always been quiet, probably the quietest time of the week. This is because most people only go and do leisure things e.g. shopping after lunch, as most of them don't open in the morning.

Sunday afternoons and early evening are very busy with weekend away traffic and weekly commuting, probably the second busiest time of the week on the IC railway after Friday evening.

Chicken and egg though, isn't it? Certainly near me, there are no early morning trains on a Sunday, so trains aren't feasible for people wanting a full day out. First train of the day to anywhere is around 10 am. If we wanted to go to London, the first Sunday train wouldn't get us there until 14:04 which doesn't leave much time to do anything really when there are no late trains back again.

However on a Saturday, we could be there by 10:14 and have a full day there.

So I don't think it's valid to say people don't want to travel by train on a Sunday morning, because a lot of people CAN'T travel by train on a Sunday morning to do what they want to do.

 

[bramling]

Chicken and egg though, isn't it? Certainly near me, there are no early morning trains on a Sunday, so trains aren't feasible for people wanting a full day out. First train of the day to anywhere is around 10 am. If we wanted to go to London, the first Sunday train wouldn't get us there until 14:04 which doesn't leave much time to do anything really when there are no late trains back again.

However on a Saturday, we could be there by 10:14 and have a full day there.

So I don't think it's valid to say people don't want to travel by train on a Sunday morning, because a lot of people CAN'T travel by train on a Sunday morning to do what they want to do.

It isn't just trains which are quiet on Sunday mornings, though. Roads are quiet too, until about 1000 at least.

I took a train to London at 0730 on a Sunday a couple of weeks ago - one of the few weeks where there wasn't any engineering work affecting the service from my station - and I was pretty much the only person on the 12-car train.

 

[Andypandy1968]

The NHS is certainly not 24/7, though. Whilst essential services are provided out of hours, the likes of GP surgeries work essentially daytime hours only, and hospitals can be like ghost towns in the evening or on a weekend.

Essential services provided 24/7 absolutely, but scaled back out of hours. Considering many Saturday railway timetables offer only slightly less mileage than weekdays (especially since Covid), one could make a case to say that the railway's "out of hours" provision is significantly better than the NHS's.

Meanwhile, I paid in a cheque to my bank on Thursday, it's now Monday and I'm still waiting for it to clear. Definitely no 24/7 service there. One could certainly make a case to say that financial business is just as much an essential service as transport provision.

If only the NHS ran as effectively as the railways we would all be in a much healthier position

 

[Neo9320]

If only the NHS ran as effectively as the railways we would all be in a much healthier position

If only rail travel cost as little as the NHS lol

 

[40129]

Okay, I'm going to bite.

First of all, as others have mentioned THE UNIPNS WANT SUNDAYS INSIDE THE WORKING WEEK TOCS DON'T!!!!!!!

When I first joined the railway, c.20 years ago, I worked for LT and Sundays were inside the working week. IIRC the working pattern was two weeks earlies followed by two weeks lates with rest days on a 4-week cycle, thus:

Week 1: Sun, Mon
Week 2: Tue, Wed
Week 3: Sun, Thu
Week 4: Fri, Sat

The result was alternate Sundays off and one long weekend off every four weeks. From what I recall this worked well.

When i joined the mail line railway, I was somewhat surprised to find that Sundays were outside the working week and paid as overtime. I have been on committed Sundays since day one and the set up at my TOC is that if you need a committed Sunday off and alternate cover can't be arranged you either work it or have 5 days marked against you on the equalization count (this reduces your opportunity to work additional Sundays)*. Over the past 10 years, I have yet to have 5 marked against me as thankfully, when I've had to make myself unavailable for a committed Sunday, cover has been available.

Overall, the committed Sundays system seems to work well at my TOC and cancellations due to traincrew are invariably lower on Sundays than Saturdays.

With regard to other industries treating Sundays s a normal day, I would like someone to provide me with a list of those where this is genuinely the case. Last time I checked, retail operated reduced hours on Sundays, the GPO was closed and the NHS provided "essential" cover only outside of Monday-Friday daytime hours. My neighbor's partner had to spend most of last weekend in pain, albeit in hospital, because his condition won't immediately kill him and the surgeon isn't required to work weekends.

As for traincrew being paid to sit at home, as others have said, this mostly happened at the height of the pandemic when services were substantially reduced and depots were subject to social distancing requirements. To the limited extent that this still happens at my depot, it is subject to:

1) The number of spare turns greatly exceeding the number of open turns
2) Stay at home spares being required to book on by phone at their booked time and being ready to drop everything and get to work at a moments notice. In other words it is effectively being on-call. The upside to the company is that messrooms aren't full of spares, The upside for the employee is a reduced fuel bill. In other words win-win

Rant over (for now)

* This applies regardless of the reason for needing the time off, other than Covid, though you can appeal to your line manager if you are genuinely sick

 

[Falcon1200]

They'd clearly tried to balance things up to be cost neutral. In effect anyone just working their contracted hours would have gained while anyone working over time lost out. Pretty much no one was happy with the offer made and the TOC certainly weren't happy with upping their offer so the whole idea was quietly dropped.

This for me is the essential issue with changing from Sundays as additional hours, ie overtime, to within the working week. The latter of course would give staff more time off, and the operator a more reliable Sunday service, but let's talk about money; Would those staff currently working Sundays as overtime shifts be happy to lose take home pay in return for fewer hours at work, or would the Unions demand an increase in basic pay to compensate ? Increasing the cost of running the railway, over and above what is already a massively subsidised industry, is unlikely to be popular.