Unions promise to fight bid to make rail staff work weekends

[Need2]

Or perhaps we should worship less at the temple of the Great God retail and encourage the idea of a day of rest again. Albeit we'd need to educate a generation in how to have worthwhile leisure time that did not involve shopping. In a world of finite resource surely we should encourage less shopping for tat......

I’m all for that, and bring back half day closing on a Wednesday while we’re at it!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This will be same unions that sing the praises of the NHS which last time i looked was a 24/7 365 day operation.

 

[choochoochoo]

This will be same unions that sing the praises of the NHS which last time i looked was a 24/7 365 day operation.

The difference being the 24/7/365 NHS is essential to keep people alive.

Is continuous running of the railway going result in lives being saved ?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The difference being the 24/7/365 NHS is essential to keep people alive.

Is continuous running of the railway going result in lives being saved ?

Of course not but as you say NHS is about keeping people alive but one could also say that running a half decent service on a Sunday is also about keeping the railway industry alive.

This shouldn't be imposed but the unions need to be bought onboard in how the industry adapts itself in the face of the changes that have happened this stupid leaking approach to the national press doesn't help.

 

[Starmill]

Most operators already know how much room they have to increase prices and they know that it's very little. A part of that is driven by things entirely outwith their control such as tax changes or retail motor fuel prices. The more the retail price of motor fuel goes up, the more pricing power the long distance TOCs have. Even with recent increases however they have very weak pricing power. Next year when the tax on flights is reduced by 50% their pricing power will decrease still further, although this only really affects LNER. Indeed Edinburgh - London is looking very weak, the perfect cocktail of cheaper budget flights and the new cheaper Lumo services and no new and faster timetable - almost no scope for price rises as a result. But no less pressure for LNER to fund pay rises than anywhere else. Without the return of the business travellers happy to pay £173 each way in Standard, things are looking bad. Leisure travellers are simply not going to pay that price.

 

[ComUtoR]

This shouldn't be imposed but the unions need to be bought onboard in how the industry adapts itself in the face of the changes that have happened

As has been said numerous times. The Unions want Sundays inside. The TOCs don't.

 

[Qwerty133]

I think a big factor that many are missing in the actual cost of this is that a permanent 10% reduction in service Monday-Friday accompanied by all of the staff who would have worked those services now having to work on Sunday instead would be enough to staff 50% of a weekday timetable on a Sunday without increasing the number of staff employed. Given that the demand from commuting is likely to remain significantly permanently below the levels experienced prior to 2020 and therefore many of the Covid reductions in service are likely to become permanent it may well be that the government believes the numbers of additional staff that would be required would cost less than the amount currently spent on overtime on Sundays (given that many TOCs are currently paying people to sit at home Monday to Friday and then paying again for Sunday when the people sat at home Monday to Friday could instead be made to work on Sunday without additional pay).

 

[wobman]

I think a big factor that many are missing in the actual cost of this is that a permanent 10% reduction in service Monday-Friday accompanied by all of the staff who would have worked those services now having to work on Sunday instead would be enough to staff 50% of a weekday timetable on a Sunday without increasing the number of staff employed. Given that the demand from commuting is likely to remain significantly permanently below the levels experienced prior to 2020 and therefore many of the Covid reductions in service are likely to become permanent it may well be that the government believes the numbers of additional staff that would be required would cost less than the amount currently spent on overtime on Sundays (given that many TOCs are currently paying people to sit at home Monday to Friday and then paying again for Sunday when the people sat at home Monday to Friday could instead be made to work on Sunday without additional pay).

The tocs i work for are planning 100% service return from May, I don't know any plans for a permanent reduction I'm any services unless it's due to reduced staffing levels.

Can I ask which Tocs are paying staff to sit at home Monday to Friday??

I'm just wondering as I've had 6 days spare from home in over 2 years, other than them 6 days I have worked driving trains. There may be reduced services but there's been reduced staffing levels aswell with limited recruitment and training of traincrew which never gets taken into consideration it seems.

Regarding Sunday working it's the Tocs that want the services covered by overtime, many posters explain this in there experience working on the railways. Unions want more staff and more subscriptions but tocs want the work covered by overtime as it's by far the cheaper option for them. Less NI / less pension contributions as overtime is not pensionable/ less salaries / less uniform it's a win win for Tocs.

 

[43066]

Can I ask which Tocs are paying staff to sit at home Monday to Friday??

Yes that raised a smile. Completely and utterly wrong.

Regarding Sunday working it's the Tocs that want the services covered by overtime, many posters explain this in there experience working on the railways. Unions want more staff and more subscriptions but tocs want the work covered by overtime as it's by far the cheaper option for them. Less NI / less pension contributions as overtime is not pensionable/ less salaries / less uniform it's a win win for Tocs.

That’s pointed out time and time again but people just seem to ignore it. Presumably because it’s an inconvenient fact that gets in the way of bashing unions and staff…

 

[bramling]

I think a big factor that many are missing in the actual cost of this is that a permanent 10% reduction in service Monday-Friday accompanied by all of the staff who would have worked those services now having to work on Sunday instead would be enough to staff 50% of a weekday timetable on a Sunday without increasing the number of staff employed. Given that the demand from commuting is likely to remain significantly permanently below the levels experienced prior to 2020 and therefore many of the Covid reductions in service are likely to become permanent it may well be that the government believes the numbers of additional staff that would be required would cost less than the amount currently spent on overtime on Sundays (given that many TOCs are currently paying people to sit at home Monday to Friday and then paying again for Sunday when the people sat at home Monday to Friday could instead be made to work on Sunday without additional pay).

Where are all these people being paid to sit at home?

 

[dk1]

Where are all these people being paid to sit at home?

I’m on the edge of my seat waiting to find this out too!!

 

[Mintona]

What sort of problems do you have with this? It's the method of working used at both TOCs I've worked for and it doesn't seem to cause any issues.

In my experience of this method at two TOCs, there is no way of getting a booked one off. The handful of volunteers get used to cover sickness and leave and everyone else is in.

Problematic if you have a wedding to attend on a Saturday and no way of getting your 05.30 start Sunday off.

In three years of this system somebody I know has tried to get out of working precisely one booked Sunday shift to do something with family, and was unable to.

 

[AlterEgo]

The difference being the 24/7/365 NHS is essential to keep people alive.

Is continuous running of the railway going result in lives being saved ?

No, but it is either a public utility or it is not.

The enormous levels of public subsidy suggest it is a public utility to me, and not something which only exists becuase of market forces.

The railway cannot abdicate its mission to be a social good or it’ll die, eventually.

 

[Horizon22]

Where are all these people being paid to sit at home?

There was certainly a time peak pandemic, but I think most if not every TOC abandoned this 9-12 months ago.

 

[wobman]

There was certainly a time peak pandemic, but I think most if not every TOC abandoned this 9-12 months ago.

At the toc I drive for the only staff paid to be at home Monday to Friday as stated by the poster, we're the office based staff or trainees.
Traincrew got the odd days off but there was still timetabled trains to drive and units had to stable on and off yards / depots.
I don't know of any of my colleagues that paid to sit at home Monday to Friday as stated as we worked trains, admittedly there were less trains and shorted diagrams.

 

[TheEdge]

There was certainly a time peak pandemic, but I think most if not every TOC abandoned this 9-12 months ago.

Even peak pandemic when you included the massive spike in sickness/isolation leaving work needing covering there wasn't a huge amount of it going on.

I think I managed it twice.

 

[wobman]

Even peak pandemic when you included the massive spike in sickness/isolation leaving work needing covering there wasn't a huge amount of it going on.

I think I managed it twice.

I had odd days off here and there but never full weeks, I wish all traincrew were paid to be at home Monday to Friday during the pandemic as stated by the poster.

 

[Mag_seven]

No, but it is either a public utility or it is not.

The enormous levels of public subsidy suggest it is a public utility to me, and not something which only exists becuase of market forces.

The railway cannot abdicate its mission to be a social good or it’ll die, eventually.

Equally we can't have train crew arguing that they are "key workers" on the one hand but baulking at Sunday working on the other.

 

[Horizon22]

Even peak pandemic when you included the massive spike in sickness/isolation leaving work needing covering there wasn't a huge amount of it going on.

I think I managed it twice.

Not loads but it was certainly there - not that it got used much because by the time you'd call someone and got them in, the issue at hand was probably resolved or too late anyway.

 

[wobman]

Equally we can't have train crew arguing that they are "key workers" on the one hand but baulking at Sunday working on the other.

The government listed railway staff as key workers throughout the pandemic I thought.
Regarding Sunday working I personally work 1 in 3 Sundays and all traincrew / platform staff at the toc I work for all work an agreed amount of Sundays per their agreements with the toc.

It's the Tocs that don't want them as part of the working week, as many have previously posted. It's all about the costs of employing more staff and getting the funding from the DFT.

 

[choochoochoo]

No, but it is either a public utility or it is not.

The enormous levels of public subsidy suggest it is a public utility to me, and not something which only exists becuase of market forces.

The railway cannot abdicate its mission to be a social good or it’ll die, eventually.

Libraries are public utilities, but as much as I'd like mine open on the Sunday it isn't.

 

[seagull]

Equally we can't have train crew arguing that they are "key workers" on the one hand but baulking at Sunday working on the other.

Don't see why not, many other key workers would not be at all pleased at having to work Sundays at all, and train crew actually already do work them.
And in any case it's not train crew who, by and large, "baulk" at Sundays, but have pointed out that there are already many sacrifices which have to be made with the lifestyle demanded of them, and therefore a huge number of extra Sundays would not necessarily be met with a welcome.

 

[Fokx]

Equally we can't have train crew arguing that they are "key workers" on the one hand but baulking at Sunday working on the other.

Post workers are key workers but don’t work Sunday

 

[Horizon22]

Don't see why not, many other key workers would not be at all pleased at having to work Sundays at all, and train crew actually already do work them.

There are very few "key workers" that don't do Sundays.

 

[choochoochoo]

Post workers are key workers but don’t work Sunday

Don't see many GPs in their practices on Sunday either

 

[ExRes]

Don't see many GPs in their practices on Sunday

Don't see many Monday to Saturday either

 

[Efini92]

What sort of problems do you have with this? It's the method of working used at both TOCs I've worked for and it doesn't seem to cause any issues.



That can only be due to issues within your rostering system, as we certainly do have spare cover on Sundays contained within our roster, which can be quite nice to get when you're not allocated or utilised on the day, but that's a real rarity. As a consequence rostering turns on a Sunday is no different from rostering turns on any other day of the week.

They don’t have spare turns at that depot on a Sunday so if someone doesn’t sign the job or is sick then turn is uncovered.
Also Sundays were impossible to get covered when they had such a lucrative RDW agreement.

 

[43066]

Not loads but it was certainly there - not that it got used much because by the time you'd call someone and got them in, the issue at hand was probably resolved or too late anyway.

You know as well as I do that the suggestion upthread that TOCs are currently paying people to sit at home has absolutely no basis in reality, and I can only assume the poster has made it up. It’s also worth pointing out (again) that many train crew already work Sundays, myself included, so the premise of the article, that train crew are inflexible and refuse to work weekends, is a lie.

Actually sitting spare where I am is a rarity and even the standby turns get used 50% of the time… So the idea of people regularly being paid to sit at home is laughable.

 

[Fokx]

Actually sitting spare where I am is a rarity and even the standby turns get used 50% of the time… So the idea of people regularly being paid to sit at home is laughable.

To additionally put it in perspective the last spare shift I had with no work was July 2021 !

Ive only had two shifts since that date which I received parts of a diagram allocated and the remaining all became full booked jobs of around ten hours.

 

[AlterEgo]

Libraries are public utilities, but as much as I'd like mine open on the Sunday it isn't.

It should be. Mine is.