Unions promise to fight bid to make rail staff work weekends

[Horizon22]

Not everywhere. In my experience it's very common in manufacturing, for example, for some people to be permanently nights, some permanently day, etc.

Yes but that is different - many depots have day and night shifts too. Train crew work very specific hours, so it couldn't work like that.

Also a lot of people say early shifts are more popular (I actually dislike them) but the railway is not unique in this way.

 

[bramling]

BOWP the following day is quite a common occurrence with drivers & guards at my TOC. The more flexible you are the more chance you’ve got.

That is poor management though, unless the day off in lieu is a spare day, as it means someone else is picking up the work, presumably? It’s really not on for others to cover work for someone who’s on an overtime fest, the clue is kind of in the word overtime!

 

[Horizon22]

In many cases things are a lot easier with control staff, as generally the increased weekend services haven’t required additional headcount, as they’ve simply made fuller utilisation of resources which were already there. Once a signal desk is manned, it doesn’t make much difference whether the service is 1tph or 2tph, whereas for train crews you have to double the number of staff.

Obviously there are cases where boxes have had to have hours extended or opened up when they were formerly closed at certain days/times, but this is the minority, and even then one extra signaller shift can still run a shift’s worth of trains.

What will be needed is better and more efficient diagrams on Sundays which can generally be pretty ridiculous.

 

[dk1]

That is poor management though, unless the day off in lieu is a spare day, as it means someone else is picking up the work, presumably? It’s really not on for others to cover work for someone who’s on an overtime fest, the clue is kind of in the word overtime!

But the job the previous day needs covering & if the person the next day can cop it within their spare time, get their palm crossed with silver or it’s just a RDW then everyone’s a winner. How else to you cover the vacant turn?

 

[Horizon22]

But the job the previous day needs covering & if the person the next day can cop it within their spare time, get their palm crossed with silver or it’s just a RDW then everyone’s a winner. How else to you cover the vacant turn?

"Everyone is not a winner", if its RDW because that costs money on top of the money already paid for the Sunday

 

[dk1]

"Everyone is not a winner", if its RDW because that costs money on top of the money already paid for the Sunday

You’ve lost me. If it’s the only way to cover both turns then why does that matter? Beats a cancelling trains.

 

[Horizon22]

You’ve lost me. If it’s the only way to cover both turns then why does that matter? Beats a cancelling trains.

I thought we were talking about lieu days as well as getting overtime? For me that just isn't on. Overtime should be just that - overtime on top of your normal rostered work.

If you are really really in a bind then perhaps but it isn't fair to the rest of the depot and sets a very bad precedent.

 

[dk1]

I thought we were talking about lieu days as well as getting overtime? For me that just isn't on. Overtime should be just that - overtime on top of your normal rostered work.

If you are really really in a bind then perhaps but it isn't fair to the rest of the depot and sets a very bad precedent.

Oh no we don’t get additional lieu days (apart from volunteering to work Boxing Day night). The person covering the extra late/night turn would obviously get booked off the next day on full pay if they could not catch their rostered turn.

 

[Horizon22]

Oh no we don’t get additional lieu days (apart from volunteering to work Boxing Day night). The person covering the extra late/night turn would obviously get booked off the next day on full pay if they could not catch their rostered turn.

Okay we were talking at cross-purposes then; I believed you were referring to post #204.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Also a lot of people say early shifts are more popular (I actually dislike them) but the railway is not unique in this way.

I used to prefer late shifts (afternoons) 1400-2230 aka the bed and work shift. Work the hours - too late to go the pub really. Get home, have a drink, go to bed, have a good lie in. Get up at say 1100, have a shower, lunch then time to travel to work. I realize this would probably not work on railways.

 

[Horizon22]

I used to prefer late shifts (afternoons) 1400-2230 aka the bed and work shift. Work the hours - too late to go the pub really. Get home, have a drink, go to bed, have a good lie in. Get up at say 1100, have a shower, lunch then time to travel to work. I realize this would probably not work on railways.

There are lots of 1400-2200 shifts (or 1500-2300) and this is pretty common outside train crew roles. I am just a massive night owl so getting up at some ridiculous hour (and this is later than most train crew early starts) is never appealing! But I am generally, firmly in the minority. I do see the benefits of early shifts though and don't mind them occasionally, but would never go out of my way for one.

 

[dk1]

Okay we were talking at cross-purposes then; I believed you were referring to post #204.

Ahh I see. Says a shift off in lieu which I assumed meant the next day rather than an extra lieu day. Of course they would get the next day off if 12 hours rest wasn’t given to their rostered sign on time.

 

[david1212]

I think to be fair that if Sunday was in the working week then the plan would be you would still have the same number of days work in a week so still five days. That would mean the TOC employing more staff but as I’ve said before it’s madness that any business that operates 7 days a week has one day that is optional.

...
I think all new starters on the railway in the operations should be employed on 7 day a week contracts maybe at a slightly higher rate than the current “optional Sunday” rate. Existing staff could opt to go onto the new rate should they want……it might take time but it would at least make steps in the right direction.

Indeed and it should have been started years ago. If it had the position now would be much better.

The problem is that years ago rail staff were poorly paid and there was no shortage of volunteers to work Sundays to enhance their income. Now that many rail wages are much higher many staff don’t feel the need to work the extra hours to supplement their income hence the shortages especially when the weather is good / there are big sports events / Bank Holidays etc.

While this worked not having enough staff to be certain of running the advertised service is a poor way to run any business.
Over the years sufficient staff on Sunday inclusive contracts to roster for the full timetabled service should have been employed. The need for overtime should be limited to covering short term additional requirements e.g. training for new stock or procedures, changes due to engineering diversions, running additional services for events.

... I don’t think it’s unreasonable for those who signed up to contracts with Sundays outside to have that to continue to be honoured, though. Just as people who signed up to Monday to Friday 9-5 jobs would be absolutely outraged if their employer suddenly expected them to come in on Saturdays or Sundays....

Trying to enforce a change of contract is never going to go down well. Some will be happy to change but there must be a plan to cover the gap between this group and requirements.

 

[bramling]

What will be needed is better and more efficient diagrams on Sundays which can generally be pretty ridiculous.

At my place the weekend duties are already quite intensive. Apart from some stuff which is there to support route retention, there isn’t much slack in what the drivers do. I’ve always thought this, whilst it’s what people / the unions want, is another reason why weekend coverage tends to be poor. It certainly doesn’t help attendance.

I used to prefer late shifts (afternoons) 1400-2230 aka the bed and work shift. Work the hours - too late to go the pub really. Get home, have a drink, go to bed, have a good lie in. Get up at say 1100, have a shower, lunch then time to travel to work. I realize this would probably not work on railways.

I always find late turn people tend to be better. My experience is there’s a core of earlies people who are solid as a rock, but they are heavily outnumbered by people who turn up moody and whose sole objective for the shift is to get away at the earliest possible opportunity. By contrast the regular late people are more chilled and less needy by far. There’s also a better atmosphere on the late turn as there is less interference from “above”.

The only trouble with 1400-2200 is that it doesn’t give quite enough time to do anything useful with the morning, certainly not without having to watch the clock at any rate. Not having to wake up to an alarm clock is lovely though. The only thing which gets my back up is the roads are still busy 2100-2200 nowadays, which wasn’t the case a decade or two ago. I’m afraid I take the view that in return for working shifts I expect certain fringe benefits, and an empty road for the journey home is one of them!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2022 ==

But the job the previous day needs covering & if the person the next day can cop it within their spare time, get their palm crossed with silver or it’s just a RDW then everyone’s a winner. How else to you cover the vacant turn?

We might be at cross-purposes, as I was thinking you were referring to a day off *as well as* OT/RDW. I’ve seen that in places, or variations of it, in places and it stinks!

We had another variation at my place where someone had a day of a training course cancelled, their price to revert to their rostered duty was a shift’s OT payment. That got scotched.

 

[142blue]

Already do plenty of weekends, in over twenty years I roughly do every other now. Regards a seven day railway there would need to be some sort of recruitment drive for train crew although I would ask that for example cross country only doing 1 tph to/from Man Picc what are the staff doing that used to work the xx07 departure from Manchester doing especially the drivers? On the line to Buxton when it was 2 tph all day where are the drivers and guards that were on that service, why can they not now work more Sundays and enhance other routes at certain times?

 

[TPO]

Amazes me how some people, and some of their more self-entitled number, fail to see that they also work in service industries which could operate 24/7 and should work for the benefit of the paying customers, not for the convenience of their weekend leisure time.

It's mainly only retail and hospitality which functions fully at weekends, plus some elements of the leisure sector. A significant proportion of the economy doesn't function at weekends. Perhaps it should?

Or perhaps we should worship less at the temple of the Great God retail and encourage the idea of a day of rest again. Albeit we'd need to educate a generation in how to have worthwhile leisure time that did not involve shopping. In a world of finite resource surely we should encourage less shopping for tat......

Freight perhaps?

very true and I confess I hate working weekends too though not had to do so recently.

Which raises an important underlying question about what the railway should be used for in the next few decades?

Well, that's how it is. Business travel and commuting is down and will not recover. White collar daily office working is dead, and alternatives to business travel are being chosen far more often.

The "cash cow" of premium priced Anytime Returns like the outrageous Manchester example is over. And the new peaks are (always were to some extent) Friday evening and Sunday afternoon.

As above. What should railway's be for? Should society be nudged into a less consumptive philosophy?

There's a focus on carbon and car vs train, yet a wider view might be to look at the fundamentals of judging "success" as being about having/ getting more "stuff" which then gets chucked out far too quickly. Wasteful and stressful.

TPO

 

[Mag_seven]

The rail industry needs to seriously up its game it term of Sunday service provision - yet again today there are train crew related cancellations on Avanti on what is now probably the busiest day of the week for long distance travel. Ideally such a "Sundays Inside" deal should be negotiated but if the unions play hard ball they are seriously risking it being imposed with all the industrial unrest that would bring.

 

[Moonshot]

The rail industry needs to seriously up its game it term of Sunday service provision - yet again today there are train crew related cancellations on Avanti on what is now probably the busiest day of the week for long distance travel. Ideally such a "Sundays Inside" deal should be negotiated but if the unions play hard ball they are seriously risking it being imposed with all the industrial unrest that would bring.

Unions are quite happy to see Sundays inside, the membership themselves less so.

 

[O L Leigh]

Unions are quite happy to see Sundays inside, the membership themselves less so.

...always assuming that the TOCs are going to offer it (see discussions above about the cost of bringing Sundays inside the week).

 

[Moonshot]

...always assuming that the TOCs are going to offer it (see discussions above about the cost of bringing Sundays inside the week).

I know exactly what the economic situation is....no doubt it would need more drivers to cover the hours not covered by overtime. Irrespective of that however, the industry cannot guarantee a timetable covered by staff hours which are optional. If the industry is to provide a robust and frequent timetable on Sundays, then the resources need to be robust as well to deliver that timetable.

 

[O L Leigh]

Irrespective of that however, the industry cannot guarantee a timetable covered by staff hours which are optional. If the industry is to provide a robust and frequent timetable on Sundays, then the resources need to be robust as well to deliver that timetable.

I’ve gone on record so many times what the best compromise is to deliver a workable solution. Not everyone likes it and no doubt someone will be along shortly to post a criticism, but committed Sundays gives staff the chance to get a bit of overtime (especially welcome in an era where rest-day working doesn’t exist) with the option to swap-off them if you’d rather not work them, allow the TOCs to provide a Sunday service at a reasonable cost compared to bringing them into the week and gives passengers an assurance that the timetabled services will run.

 

[Moonshot]

I’ve gone on record so many times what the best compromise is to deliver a workable solution. Not everyone likes it and no doubt someone will be along shortly to post a criticism, but committed Sundays gives staff the chance to get a bit of overtime) especially welcome in an era where rest-day working doesn’t exist) with the option to swap-off them if you’d rather not work them, allow the TOCs to provide a Sunday service at a reasonable cost compared to bringing them into the week and gives passengers an assurance that the timetabled services will run.

That way of working still has its problems. It's the way we work on the west side of Northern.

 

[wobman]

The rostering of booked Sundays is not as easy as it seems, some drivers can't cover their booked jobs due to numerous reasons.
Sickness / on leave / route knowledge etc there's no spares rostered to cover Sundays which covers these eventualities on Monday to Saturday.

This is a major flaw in covering Sunday working if there's not enough RDW volunteers on that Sunday. Even with enough rdw volunteers Some traincrew can't cover certain jobs due to route knowledge or hidden working restrictions.

 

[Thermal]

I feel the cost of bringing Sundays inside is being significantly underestimated in parts of this debate. The unions are actively for binging Sundays inside, and many staff are not against it as it will mean you could apply for leave instead of being forced to work overtime on commited days, along with making Sunday pay pensionable.

However, the uplift in operational staff required would be at least 15%, likely closer to 17% as formalising Sundays will introduce spare Sunday turns and have to account for leave and sickness too. Not only will there be more staff costs, (plus more training costs, more equipment, more managers etc) but all staff will require a reasonable uplift in salary / compensation to agree to the significant worsening of their terms and conditions.

For example, I am committed to working 2 in 3 Saturdays and 1 in 6 Sundays. I can pick up additional Sundays if they suit, paid at an enhanced rate and can usually find cover for my commited Sundays if I would like any of those off. This means that staff who enjoy overtime have regular access to it, and those who enjoy Sundays at home rarely have to work one. To go from this to forcing all staff to work 2 in 3 of all weekend days is a big quality of life hit. I understand (and personally agree) with the need for a full Sunday service, but I couldn't vote to worsen my own work-life balance to such an extent without a significant uplift somewhere else in my T's & C's.

This likely puts the overall staffing cost increase somewhere north of 20% if it is to be implemented without large industrial relations issues before you come onto the additional knock on costs, such as removing track access time for engineering works (less time = larger cost for the same quantity of maintenance and renewal).

All of these additional costs would be against a backdrop of other cost related issues currently facing the industry. At my TOC there have been no pay rises for approaching 3 years, which is starting to cause discontent as I am sure everyone is well aware of what has happened to the £'s purchasing power over that time. Staff / unions will be asking for a significant pay deal to address this, but I am almost certain one will not be forthcoming. Combine this deficit with the uplift also required for Sundays and the difference between the current budget and pay required is (very broad estimate) somewhere around 25% - 30% apart for operational staff. The reduction in Sunday overtime will cover only a small fraction of this.

TOC's are also not immune to the wider economy, and the same inflation that will lead to pay talk issues is also increasing all other operating costs (Fuel etc) and the DfT are in no mood for meeting this challenge at present. TOC budgets are already squeezed so far as to make day to day operations challenging and should any additional money be allocated, it will likely be needed in other areas long before a nationwide Sunday resolution is addressed. I don't particularly like it, but committed Sundays seem the most logical way forward at present as I just don't see where all of the additional funding comes from.

 

[O L Leigh]

That way of working still has its problems. It's the way we work on the west side of Northern.

What sort of problems do you have with this? It's the method of working used at both TOCs I've worked for and it doesn't seem to cause any issues.

The rostering of booked Sundays is not as easy as it seems, some drivers can't cover their booked jobs due to numerous reasons.
Sickness / on leave / route knowledge etc there's no spares rostered to cover Sundays which covers these eventualities on Monday to Saturday.

This is a major flaw in covering Sunday working if there's not enough RDW volunteers on that Sunday. Even with enough rdw volunteers Some traincrew can't cover certain jobs due to route knowledge or hidden working restrictions.

That can only be due to issues within your rostering system, as we certainly do have spare cover on Sundays contained within our roster, which can be quite nice to get when you're not allocated or utilised on the day, but that's a real rarity. As a consequence rostering turns on a Sunday is no different from rostering turns on any other day of the week.

 

[Starmill]

I feel the cost of bringing Sundays inside is being significantly underestimated in parts of this debate. The unions are actively for binging Sundays inside, and many staff are not against it as it will mean you could apply for leave instead of being forced to work overtime on commited days, along with making Sunday pay pensionable.

However, the uplift in operational staff required would be at least 15%, likely closer to 17% as formalising Sundays will introduce spare Sunday turns and have to account for leave and sickness too. Not only will there be more staff costs, (plus more training costs, more equipment, more managers etc) but all staff will require a reasonable uplift in salary / compensation to agree to the significant worsening of their terms and conditions.

For example, I am committed to working 2 in 3 Saturdays and 1 in 6 Sundays. I can pick up additional Sundays if they suit, paid at an enhanced rate and can usually find cover for my commited Sundays if I would like any of those off. This means that staff who enjoy overtime have regular access to it, and those who enjoy Sundays at home rarely have to work one. To go from this to forcing all staff to work 2 in 3 of all weekend days is a big quality of life hit. I understand (and personally agree) with the need for a full Sunday service, but I couldn't vote to worsen my own work-life balance to such an extent without a significant uplift somewhere else in my T's & C's.

This likely puts the overall staffing cost increase somewhere north of 20% if it is to be implemented without large industrial relations issues before you come onto the additional knock on costs, such as removing track access time for engineering works (less time = larger cost for the same quantity of maintenance and renewal).

All of these additional costs would be against a backdrop of other cost related issues currently facing the industry. At my TOC there have been no pay rises for approaching 3 years, which is starting to cause discontent as I am sure everyone is well aware of what has happened to the £'s purchasing power over that time. Staff / unions will be asking for a significant pay deal to address this, but I am almost certain one will not be forthcoming. Combine this deficit with the uplift also required for Sundays and the difference between the current budget and pay required is (very broad estimate) somewhere around 25% - 30% apart for operational staff. The reduction in Sunday overtime will cover only a small fraction of this.

TOC's are also not immune to the wider economy, and the same inflation that will lead to pay talk issues is also increasing all other operating costs (Fuel etc) and the DfT are in no mood for meeting this challenge at present. TOC budgets are already squeezed so far as to make day to day operations challenging and should any additional money be allocated, it will likely be needed in other areas long before a nationwide Sunday resolution is addressed. I don't particularly like it, but committed Sundays seem the most logical way forward at present as I just don't see where all of the additional funding comes from.

It seems very likely that a small amount of the money will come from people who've already taken VSS and also the likely withdrawal stations-based roles, especially those working in ticket offices. Unfortunately there's no way that's going to leave enough money to arrange a pay deal for drivers which will cover what might have been offered over the last 3 years without the pandemic, or provide any increase to cover for Sunday in the way that this exchange was done at some operators between the 90s and 2020.

 

[wobman]

What sort of problems do you have with this? It's the method of working used at both TOCs I've worked for and it doesn't seem to cause any issues.

That can only be due to issues within your rostering system, as we certainly do have spare cover on Sundays contained within our roster, which can be quite nice to get when you're not allocated or utilised on the day, but that's a real rarity. As a consequence rostering turns on a Sunday is no different from rostering turns on any other day of the week.

I work an average of 1 in 3 Sundays with my booked jobs on each allocated Sunday, most jobs are now between 8.30 - 9.30hrs long. We used to have lots of easy Sundays but the company wanted to increase our compliment to nearly 1 in 2 which we declined so they just made all the jobs long jobs now.

As a result the rosters struggle to cover Sunday jobs, if we had spares that would ensure more work was covered but it would increase our ratio against our Sunday agreement. Other depots have a 1 in 8 ratio within my toc which is baffling how work gets allocated.

 

[bramling]

It seems very likely that a small amount of the money will come from people who've already taken VSS and also the likely withdrawal stations-based roles, especially those working in ticket offices. Unfortunately there's no way that's going to leave enough money to arrange a pay deal for drivers which will cover what might have been offered over the last 3 years without the pandemic, or provide any increase to cover for Sunday in the way that this exchange was done at some operators between the 90s and 2020.

And this is the point. Essentially, it’s unaffordable as things stand at the moment.

A fares increase would help, ideally to find an equilibrium which increases revenue *and* suppresses demand. That way there’s less of a cost gap, and perhaps fewer services would be needed.

We may well have to come to accept that some of the weekend travel is discretionary, and in the grand scheme of things is low-value, both to the railway and to the wider economy.

 

[DannyMich2018]

I have nothing but admiration for rail staff. They worked so hard the last two years. However times change and as we are seeing the weekends on many lines are busier than in the week so like many other industries weekends need to be part of the working week. Walkouts and strikes will only put people off travelling many of which wont use trains again.

 

[bramling]

I have nothing but admiration for rail staff. They worked so hard the last two years. However times change and as we are seeing the weekends on many lines are busier than in the week so like many other industries weekends need to be part of the working week. Walkouts and strikes will only put people off travelling many of which wont use trains again.

We do have to be wary of seeing only one part of a bigger picture. The 0900 2-car Sprinter to a major town may well be full to bursting, but this doesn’t mean the route as a whole is busier on a weekend than a weekday.

Indeed as living costs are going to rise significantly this year (much of which is still to bite), discretionary travel is bound to take a hit. Whilst weekday demand may have its own issues, the demand is more robust in that it’s made up of people going to work or going about their more important daily business.

TOCs could endeavour to be a little smarter when planning weekend services, for example prioritising resources towards those times when lots of people are making a particular journey, and trimming back some of the many lesser-used weekend services which can readily be found if one knows where to look. But someone will then complain that this potentially messes up the value of the railway as a public service, by focussing on more profitable services and ditching less profitable ones. There’s also the very difficult issue of the unpredictability of weekend usage, which can be very heavily impacted by events, as well as factors like weather.

Also to be borne in mind is that many weekend users will be travelling on cheap tickets, including plenty of child fares. A family of six may well take up a lot of space, but will not bring in as much revenue as six peak-time commuters.