Unions promise to fight bid to make rail staff work weekends

[mmh]

Unions need to embrace that approach more widely. Yes, protect the position of established staff, but if you take a job then you take it based on the terms offered, and there's no reason those terms have to be the same as existing staff. If you don't like the terms offered when

I assume you've never been in a unionised workplace then. Different terms and conditions for people doing the same job are red rag to a bull, and rightly so. If they weren't, what would be the point of the union?

 

[TheEdge]

I'll catch up with the rest of the thread later.

I doubt there is much point. I feel like the response to anything will be "no, its those pesky unions stealing my tax money and stopping decent money saving condition smashing modernisation"

Why are the railways so special? In any other industry, which has to stand on its own feet in the marketplace, it is accepted that 24/7 working is required. Time for the government to say that those who insist on fouling the nest can go off the payroll. I've had it up to here with the RMT, who seem to have little regard for the customer.

But the railways are 24/7. With a handful of exceptions (one of which is probably the reason the loudest voice in this thread is shouting so loudly) most TOCs operate Sundays in such a way that they are, for all intents and purposes, part of the normal working week. Its just that the exact agreements mean they are technically overtime. It would be nice to have Sundays in the working week, it would mean my mortgage application wouldn't need a big note explaining my overtime isn't actually overtime despite being down as overtime. But there are big costs to doing that and changing the status quo, and those costs would be on the company/treasury side. So its not as cut and dry "those evil unions" as it looks.

 

[bramling]

I assume you've never been in a unionised workplace then. Different terms and conditions for people doing the same job are red rag to a bull, and rightly so. If they weren't, what would be the point of the union?

It's not a great idea anyway, unions or otherwise. It's a sure-fire way to make a workplace go extremely septic, surprisingly quickly.

Whilst it might sound well and good to take the view that new entrants knew what they were signing up to, in reality people don't take this attitude, and your new recruits quickly become embittered.

 

[43066]

Why are the railways so special? In any other industry, which has to stand on its own feet in the marketplace, it is accepted that 24/7 working is required. Time for the government to say that those who insist on fouling the nest can go off the payroll. I've had it up to here with the RMT, who seem to have little regard for the customer.

Very predictable, blame it all on the unions. Never mind that the unions actually want Sunday working (and no rest day working).

Who exactly do you think the RMT’s customer’s are? Clue: it isn’t passengers.

 

[bramling]

Why are the railways so special? In any other industry, which has to stand on its own feet in the marketplace, it is accepted that 24/7 working is required. Time for the government to say that those who insist on fouling the nest can go off the payroll. I've had it up to here with the RMT, who seem to have little regard for the customer.

I must be missing the 24/7 working at my local bank branch...

 

[O L Leigh]

I doubt there is much point. I feel like the response to anything will be "no, its those pesky unions stealing my tax money and stopping decent money saving condition smashing modernisation"

Yeah, I think you're right.

 

[mmh]

I must be missing the 24/7 working at my local bank branch...

Exactly. It'd be interesting to know how many people on here have ever been in a unionised workplace, been a member, ever worked in a 24/7 workplace. I imagine the number would be far fewer than the number who are experts on industrial relations. Ahem.

 

[bramling]

Exactly. It'd be interesting to know how many people on here have ever been in a unionised workplace, been a member, ever worked in a 24/7 workplace. I imagine the number would be far fewer than the number who are experts on industrial relations. Ahem.

The other issue is the comparatively long length of time which people spend in some railway jobs, especially drivers. This in itself does tend to entrench terms and conditions.

But the biggest factor going forward is probably simply one of competition. Notwithstanding some degree of competition between operators, the industry is in competition for people who could quite happily do other jobs, in some cases even more lucrative. There’s plenty of drivers with quality degrees and/or sought-after experience in other industries. The railway is always going to be at a disadvantage on conditions simply due to shift work (and, if as some people here predict working from home is going to be a big thing going forward then this is another factor where the railway is at disadvantage), hence why salaries have tended to go high. But salaries only take things so far, especially once well into 40% territory.

In short, upset the apple cart too much and the industry could lose people, as is already happening at TFL. Before even considering who replaces them, you have the issue of the amount of time and investment required to train people, again especially drivers. Lose people, and bang go the weekend services anyway as even post-Covid the government is simply never going to prioritise weekends over weekdays.

 

[HullRailMan]

Amazes me how rail unions, and some of their more militant members, fail to see that they work in a service industry that operates 24/7 and should work for the benefit of the paying customers, not the convenience of the staff. They get paid a fortune for a job that you can just walk in off the street to do (eg no degree required) yet whine about any attempt to move with the times.

 

[bramling]

Amazes me how rail unions, and some of their more militant members, fail to see that they work in a service industry that operates 24/7 and should work for the benefit of the paying customers, not the convenience of the staff. They get paid a fortune for a job that you can just walk in off the street to do (eg no degree required) yet whine about any attempt to move with the times.

Amazes me how some people, and some of their more self-entitled number, fail to see that they also work in service industries which could operate 24/7 and should work for the benefit of the paying customers, not for the convenience of their weekend leisure time.

It's mainly only retail and hospitality which functions fully at weekends, plus some elements of the leisure sector. A significant proportion of the economy doesn't function at weekends. Perhaps it should?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's mainly only retail and hospitality which functions fully at weekends, plus some elements of the leisure sector. A significant proportion of the economy doesn't function at weekends.

What's of note is that those are the areas of industry that most drive leisure travel, which is now the railway's bread and butter.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In the old days, B.R. had an interest in maximising rest-day working. Think about it; if you had 5 turns of duty Every Week Day you would need 6 staff to cover with no r.d. working (5 x 5 days plus 1 rest day relief), plus holiday/sick cover for 6. With everyone working rest days, you would need only 5 staff - no r.d.r. and holiday/sick cover for only 5.
Although the 5 staff would be paid enhanced for the rest day overtime, there would only be 5, instead of 6, people requiring paid holidays, sick pay and employer's pension contributions.
And, for recruitment, the pay 'including average overtime' would be the one advertised. But, much later, staff would surprised when they realise that the overtime (probably 25% enhancement on basic) doesn't count for pension calculations...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I don't care who is to blame - I fear for the industry.

My grand father was a member of the NUR and was killed on the railway. I am not anti-union.
I saw what happened to the Printing industry in this country.
I saw what happened to the coal industry in this country.
I saw what happened to the steel industry in this country.

Things change over time. Sunday is no longer "holy". Commuting is not what it was.

Something has to change. Change can be painful. But something has to change.

When I worked in the UK I once was a member of ASTMS (Association of Scientific, Technical and Managerial Staff)

IIRC (slightly OT) Liverpool Dockers in the 1960s refused to handle containers. The business just moved to Rotterdam.

 

[Starmill]

I doubt there is much point. I feel like the response to anything will be "no, its those pesky unions stealing my tax money and stopping decent money saving condition smashing modernisation"

Yeah, I think you're right.

This is really immature. Some of us work in our personal and professional lives to try to promote rail and public transport services more widely. I think that myself and most of those I know support rewarding well paid permanent roles for bus, tram, and train crew, and vote and campaign for better quality public services and more public spending. I myself am a member of a trade union and a political party which is affiliated with the trade union movement. I always support a party in local and national elections which favours increased public spending. I disagree publicly with anyone who argues for more restraint on public spending. I have never supported the governing party in my life and I try to politely persuade anyone I know personally not to do so.

But sure it is fine for you to lazily caricature anyone who doesn't share precisely your feelings about it as a nasty anti union shill. I guess it makes you feel better. What exactly are you doing to try and support the railway industry in it's current battle?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

I don't care who is to blame - I fear for the industry.

My grand father was a member of the NUR and was killed on the railway. I am not anti-union.
I saw what happened to the Printing industry in this country.
I saw what happened to the coal industry in this country.
I saw what happened to the steel industry in this country.

Things change over time. Sunday is no longer "holy". Commuting is not what it was.

Something has to change. Change can be painful. But something has to change.

When I worked in the UK I once was a member of ASTMS (Association of Scientific, Technical and Managerial Staff)

IIRC (slightly OT) Liverpool Dockers in the 1960s refused to handle containers. The business just moved to Rotterdam.

Exactly. The railway needs to become more efficient in order to survive technological and social change. That was true before the pandemic but the pandemic has speeded up change and therefore the industry's efficiency drive must also speed up. To accept these facts is not an anti-union or anti-railway message. People claiming it is are are wrong.

 

[O L Leigh]

But sure it is fine for you to lazily caricature anyone who doesn't share precisely your feelings about it as a nasty anti union shill. I guess it makes you feel better. What exactly are you doing to try and support the railway industry in it's current battle?

I could just as easily turn that around and ask you the same.

So far in this thread you have advocated a race to the bottom because you say that there's no more money to be had so we'd better just get on with it. We've asked for your learned input but all you do is hold up a brand new open-access operator that has had the benefit of starting out with a clean sheet of paper and very little parallel with existing operators as some sort of paragon but otherwise seem content to poo-poo any realistic suggestions that we make from inside the industry. You've fudged on details and been hostile throughout (I don't think anyone dislikes Lumo in spite of the number of people you've accused). With support like that we don't need critics.

But that would be childish, so I won't do that.

If the question is Sundays the answer has already been given. If the question is wider efficiencies then ideas have already been floated. The problem is that there is no silver bullet to sort out all of the rail industry's maladies. The choice is simply to leave well alone and allow the situation to stagnate or spend some money now to invest in efficiencies that will reap the savings later. The problem is, as I said waaaaaaay back on page 1, that the Government is not interested in saving money tomorrow but would rather have it today.

 

[ComUtoR]

That the Government is not interested in saving money tomorrow but would rather have it today.

Do you, or anybody else, believe that the government will still be running the TOCs in 10yrs time ? I don't believe that there is any incentive for long term savings.

 

[Starmill]

I could just as easily turn that around and ask you the same.

My post contains the answers.

The issue as I've explained with your suggestion is that it involves going to the Conservative government and Conservative chancellor and asking for more money, with nothing guaranteed in return. Now if you can put forward a way in which TOCs can give those guarantees then you will be changing the game. Additionally, if you can put forward some ways in which the situation could be improved without spending any more money than is currently available, that's also great. Rest day working is a useful idea but is practical only if it is timebound, for something specific such as training, and doesn't require a premium rate.

Sadly the best you've got appears to be insulting other people as wanting a so-called race to the bottom. That's not what I'm arguing for and you're wrong to suggest I want it.

 

[nedchester]

Amazes me how some people, and some of their more self-entitled number, fail to see that they also work in service industries which could operate 24/7 and should work for the benefit of the paying customers, not for the convenience of their weekend leisure time.

It's mainly only retail and hospitality which functions fully at weekends, plus some elements of the leisure sector. A significant proportion of the economy doesn't function at weekends. Perhaps it should?

But there is a demand for travel at weekends so it shouldn’t be beyond the reason that the railway should operate with a decent service on Sundays. In Europe the service on Sundays is pretty much the same as Monday to Friday and in a more mobile society that should be happening here.

I think all new starters on the railway in the operations should be employed on 7 day a week contracts maybe at a slightly higher rate than the current “optional Sunday” rate. Existing staff could opt to go onto the new rate should they want……it might take time but it would at least make steps in the right direction.

The problem is that years ago rail staff were poorly paid and there was no shortage of volunteers to work Sundays to enhance their income. Now that many rail wages are much higher many staff don’t feel the need to work the extra hours to supplement their income hence the shortages especially when the weather is good / there are big sports events / Bank Holidays etc.

 

[O L Leigh]

My post contains the answers.

Yes. You want us all to be like Lumo which would, as has already been explained, represent a worsening of T&Cs; hence race to the bottom.

The issue as I've explained with your suggestion is that it involves going to the Conservative government and Conservative chancellor and asking for more money, with nothing guaranteed in return. Now if you can put forward a way in which TOCs can give those guarantees then you will be changing the game. Additionally, if you can put forward some ways in which the situation could be improved without spending any more money than is currently available, that's also great.

Which is still a good sight cheaper than bringing Sundays into the working week for the rest of the industry, as I have also explained.

The fact of the matter is that failing to invest will inevitably lead to stagnation. It’s not a case of if we need to spend money to facilitate training, etc, but when is this money going to be spent. There is no alternative. Failing to do so just sets the industry on a course for a crisis.

Do I expect to get money out of this or any other Government? The answer to that doesn’t really matter. The point is that decisions are being made now that will inevitably have an impact in the future. Your insistent line of argument ignores this because, like the Government, you’re focusing purely on the “now”.

Do you, or anybody else, believe that the government will still be running the TOCs in 10yrs time ?

Has there been any time in the last 3 decades when the Government hasn’t run the railway?

I don't believe that there is any incentive for long term savings.

No, because they think they can do it all today.

 

[Starmill]

You want us all to be like Lumo which would, as has already been explained, represent a worsening of T&Cs; hence race to the bottom.

That's not what a race to the bottom is.

It is firstly a phrase which describes the idea of low taxes on business in a dergulated economy, secondly a description of the idea that in a price war the quality or safety of the product for the end consumer is badly degraded or thirdly a reference to undersea mining, but I guess you don't mean the latter. Regardless, this is exactly the opposite of what I am calling for!

It's bizarre that you are so defensive about this. You claim not to have any issues with Lumo and that I'm wrong to suggest that there's any view of disliking them, but also you think that if the whole industry adopted some of their practices to save money it would be some kind of outrageous behaviour? Which in that case would imply you clearly do have something against them.

As the railway industry grows it will need more front line operational staff rather than fewer. This growth will be supported by the efficiency drive thus sharing the benefits widely via well paid, skilled, secure careers. Stymied growth through wasteful practice or as at TPE, weekly industrial action actually denies future front line staff that role.

 

[D6975]

Exactly. It'd be interesting to know how many people on here have ever been in a unionised workplace, been a member, ever worked in a 24/7 workplace. I imagine the number would be far fewer than the number who are experts on industrial relations. Ahem.

I haven't, but my ex worked in a 24/7 365 days a year environment, which is even worse than the railways.

 

[Mintona]

I’ve worked all three Sunday systems and Committed Sundays are by far the worst. Absolutely no way of getting a Sunday off when you need it, in my experience. At least with them inside you can apply for a leave day and use that.

I currently have them voluntary and so far this year I’ve worked 6/11 (one of the 5 I had off was due to testing positive for covid, I’d have worked otherwise). I do my fair share of Sundays but also have a way to not have to work them when required, such as this coming Sunday when I’m doing a half marathon.

In all the places that I’ve had Sundays outside there’s never been an offer, or talks of any kind afaik, to bring them inside.

 

[Starmill]

Your insistent line of argument ignores this because, like the Government, you’re focusing purely on the “now”.

That's because budgets for now have already been set. Sure you can argue against that but it's entirely theoretical. Alternatively we can deal with the reality as we find it. We're allowed to choose how to spend a significant amount of money as it is.

 

[43066]

So far in this thread you have advocated a race to the bottom because you say that there's no more money to be had so we'd better just get on with it. We've asked for your learned input but all you do is hold up a brand new open-access operator that has had the benefit of starting out with a clean sheet of paper and very little parallel with existing operators as some sort of paragon but otherwise seem content to poo-poo any realistic suggestions that we make from inside the industry.

It’s notable that some of posters citing faux concern over Covid to argue for worsening of train crew Ts and Cs were arguing for the same thing long before the pandemic. Which rather belies their true motives in this discussion!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

Amazes me how rail unions, and some of their more militant members, fail to see that they work in a service industry that operates 24/7 and should work for the benefit of the paying customers, not the convenience of the staff. They get paid a fortune for a job that you can just walk in off the street to do (eg no degree required) yet whine about any attempt to move with the times.

If it’s such a land of milk and honey, and anyone can “walk in off the street” and “get paid a fortune”, can I ask why you aren’t doing it?

 

[Ex-controller]

Amazes me how rail unions, and some of their more militant members, fail to see that they work in a service industry that operates 24/7 and should work for the benefit of the paying customers, not the convenience of the staff. They get paid a fortune for a job that you can just walk in off the street to do (eg no degree required) yet whine about any attempt to move with the times

How dare anyone without a degree seek to defend their pay and conditions, and resultant living standards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

We only need to see today with the P&O ferries staff what can happen to transport workers if they don’t vociferously defend their conditions from attack.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

If it’s such a land of milk and honey, and anyone can “walk in off the street” and “get paid a fortune”, can I ask why you aren’t doing it?

It’s beneath him. Only for the lesser folk without university degrees.

 

[Starmill]

Amazes me how rail unions, and some of their more militant members, fail to see that they work in a service industry that operates 24/7 and should work for the benefit of the paying customers, not the convenience of the staff. They get paid a fortune for a job that you can just walk in off the street to do (eg no degree required) yet whine about any attempt to move with the times.

I really think that this approach is wrong I'm afraid. It's very intensive hard work training to become a professional driver, both in general and of trains. All front line roles require a high degree of safety perception and safety critical roles give individual staff lawful responsibility over the lives of the general public. Hours are long and at all times of day with unsocial shifts. It's right that this commands decent pay and I'm afraid it's wrong to suggest anyone could do it. I'm glad I don't work on-call or a safety critical role, I would find those very tough. Customer service is an area for improvement, but it's impossible to deliver customer excellence with front line staff paid at or a couple of pounds over the minimum wage.

 

[43066]

I really think that this approach is wrong I'm afraid. It's very intensive hard work training to become a professional driver, both in general and of trains. All front line roles require a high degree of safety perception and safety critical roles give individual staff lawful responsibility over the lives of the general public. Hours are long and at all times of day with unsocial shifts. It's right that this commands decent pay and I'm afraid it's wrong to suggest anyone could do it. I'm glad I don't work on-call or a safety critical role, I would find those very tough.

Credit to this poster for at least acknowledging this. Such acknowledgement is generally thin on the ground on here which is part of why these discussions can become so polarised.

It’s beneath him. Only for the lesser folk without university degrees.

Sadly it’s difficult to escape the conclusion that plain old snobbery drives the views of some posters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

We only need to see today with the P&O ferries staff what can happen to transport workers if they don’t vociferously defend their conditions from attack.

I couldn’t agree more!

 

[JamesT]

We only need to see today with the P&O ferries staff what can happen to transport workers if they don’t vociferously defend their conditions from attack.

Or you could argue they’ve been too successful in defending their conditions, the owners have decided the current crop are too expensive and fired them all to bring in cheaper replacements.

 

[O L Leigh]

It's bizarre that you are so defensive about this. You claim not to have any issues with Lumo and that I'm wrong to suggest that there's any view of disliking them, but also you think that if the whole industry adopted some of their practices to save money it would be some kind of outrageous behaviour? Which in that case would imply you clearly do have something against them.

Well we can keep going round and round with this if you like. I simply said that Lumo is not a representative sample due to the extent of the dissimilarities between them and the majority of franchised TOCs. Any implication of my supposed dislike of them is entirely of your own devising.

I have at no time said that adopting any of their practices would "...be some kind of outrageous behaviour", but if you feel that I did then perhaps you'd do me the favour of quoting me. I have quite consistently said that any and all proposals to alter staff T&Cs, especially any change for the worse, would be subject to negotiation and a ballot, as is right and proper. I fail to see what is unreasonable about this.

What I have made a point of is highlighting the additional costs associated with bringing Sundays inside the working week where such arrangements do not currently exist. If eyes are on the purse strings then perhaps you can see the financial sense in continuing to offer these as overtime.

That's not what a race to the bottom is.

It is firstly a phrase which describes the idea of low taxes on business in a dergulated economy, secondly a description of the idea that in a price war the quality or safety of the product for the end consumer is badly degraded or thirdly a reference to undersea mining, but I guess you don't mean the latter.

Ah, semantics. The use of the phrase is well-understood within this context and adequately conveys the idea. However, if you find it troublesome how about we describe it instead as "the lowest common denominator".

Regardless, this is exactly the opposite of what I am calling for!

Hardly the exact opposite.

As the railway industry grows it will need more front line operational staff rather than fewer. This growth will be supported by the efficiency drive thus sharing the benefits widely via well paid, skilled, secure careers. Stymied growth through wasteful practice or as at TPE, weekly industrial action actually denies future front line staff that role.

You're right, which is why the effects of "pulling down the shutters" which is being felt across the industry is so counterproductive. While there are individual disputes in various places, the merits of which have been debated back and forth more than adequately, there is a growing feeling of dissatisfaction which is not being helped any by the apparent intransigence of the DfT.

No matter what the topic under debate, whether it be long-overdue pay increases or rest-day working agreements, the automatic and instantaneous response is "Njet". This is not a healthy atmosphere in which to work and will not attract people to the industry for long, rewarding and secure careers. And it's not a situation that can be improved by the staff bending over and taking one for the team. We need to have a meaningful dialogue and to feel valued by those seeking to improve the industry.

 

[Starmill]

Or you could argue they’ve been too successful in defending their conditions, the owners have decided the current crop are too expensive and fired them all to bring in cheaper replacements.

I do find it very odd how it's almost unique to transport workers now to take the view that there's a zero sum game of company vs workers - i.e. for one to gain the other must somehow lose. In large private sector employers these days, if the company has any respect there's a culture of what's good for one is good for the other - most people see the fruits of their labour now as being the good of the firm and therefore themselves long-term, not to get as much out of their employer as they possibly can. I guess it's just a different way of thinking.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

The use of the phrase is well-understood within this context and adequately conveys the idea.

No it isn't. It's something parroted by people on this forum specifically, who perhaps don't fully understand what the expression means or where it came from, when they're on the defensive. The expression imports meaning of the above mentioned "outrageous behaviour", dodgy deals, or very cheap and shoddy work. Perhaps it's because it's a term which is frequently used by the RMT but I don't really know. RMT are well known for uses of language which aren't commonly found by the other trade unions, including TSSA, ASLEF and Unite. Either way it's wrong and Lumo clearly aren't engaged in a 'race to the bottom' or anything similar.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

Hardly the exact opposite

Definitely the opposite.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

If eyes are on the purse strings then perhaps you can see the financial sense in continuing to offer these as overtime.

There is some movement on this point. I agree it's an area where compromise is possibility. Unfortunately currently negotiations over the matter have yielded nothing because of the request for overtime to be paid at premium rates.