British Rail EMU/DMUs thin on the ground

[bramling]

I think the 155s will go, considering they're nonstandard.

It’s surprising really that Northern have dropped their 153s but still kept the 155s going. Seems a fair bet these will, in due course, get ousted by 156s or 158s, with examples of both types coming from TFW and EMR.

 

[43066]

It is sobering to think that another 10 years or so will see the 465s approaching 40 years old. I say sobering, as I still think of them as “new”.

Unlike a few years ago, the odds on them reaching that age are probably fairly safe now, 465/2 excepted perhaps.

I must admit I’m pretty fond of Networkers, especially the York ones which still give a feel of quality design - at least from the end user’s point of view. It’s unfortunate that the 465 fleet just hasn’t been well looked after, and the 365 fleet found itself in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Agreed.

I was at primary school when they were introduced, and basically grew up with them. Very pleased they’ll be around for a few more years yet.

The 466s and 465/2 must be the most vulnerable to Covid related permanent retirements (I think the ones which have gone into storage so far include some 0s/1s though?). The /9s really are quite smart inside, first class excepted.

 

[bramling]

Agreed.

I was at primary school when they were introduced, and basically grew up with them. Very pleased they’ll be around for a few more years yet.

The 466s and 465/2 must be the most vulnerable to Covid related permanent retirements (I think the ones which have gone into storage so far include some 0s/1s though?). The /9s really are quite smart inside, first class excepted.

Some BREL 465s went into store, but I believe all or most of these have now returned, their place being taken by the remaining 465/2 instead.

The 365s have kind of coincided with elements of my life-cycle, which is one reason I’m rather peeved at them being withdrawn prematurely - I had taken the view they’d hopefully be around to see out my working life, which isn’t now going to be the case. I have a print of one on my office wall, though!

 

[JonathanH]

Is there any particular reason Wikipedia preceeds all classes with "British Rail"? Eg British rail class 777... Does this term simply relate to the fact they're operated in Britain?

Yes, it is just convenient short hand for the fact they are operated in Britain.

Why do Wikipedia articles refer to UK rolling stock as "British Rail"?

In all other industries if a large undertaking changes its name, the new name is adopted and the former name consigned to the past never to be heard again. For example "Datsun" transforming into "Nissan" or "Matsu****a" transforming after 70 years into "Panasonic" or "Norwich Union"...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[nw1]

Agreed.

I was at primary school when they were introduced, and basically grew up with them. Very pleased they’ll be around for a few more years yet.

Even though I'm getting on a bit now, I'm still young enough to have a few still-extant classes introduced when I was at primary school. That makes me feel a little less old!

 

[Pacco]

How long have 150's reasonably got left in service?

The youngest of them will turn 35 this year.

 

[bramling]

How long have 150's reasonably got left in service?

The youngest of them will turn 35 this year.

If corrosion can be kept sufficiently managed, it does seem likely they could well last a decade or so.

I can’t really see any new orders for Sprinter replacement for the time being. So any withdrawal of 150s will for now depend on other DMU classes being cascaded - 170s are pretty spoken for, so we wait to see how far the displaced 156s and 158s go, likewise the 175s. The complication is that all these are 23m end-door stock, so it isn’t simply a straight replacement for 150s. Also something like a 156 is of similar vintage and has likely had a similar hard life.

 

[Mikey C]

Though the 465s are probably not due for replacement just yet to be fair, they're only about 27 years old? When you consider the EPBs they replaced were introduced in 1951 and were still going strong, on the South Eastern at least, in 1993, the 465s should have a few years left in them yet. They're also about 10 years newer than the 455s, which of course are still just about going.

The EPBs weren't all built in 1951 though. The Mark 1 style ones date from 1960, so must have only been in their early 30s when withdrawn.

But I agree that the 465s aren't old at all.

 

[Benno]

Never heard nine before, as 7 gone would leave 36 in traffic. But I can’t argue with the facts!
And no clue about the Bolton service. Someone with a more knowledgeable understanding of that may take over from me on that

It’s definitely nine that aren’t transferring to Northern. 323201, 204, 214, 215, 216, 220, 221, 222 and 240.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It’s surprising really that Northern have dropped their 153s but still kept the 155s going. Seems a fair bet these will, in due course, get ousted by 156s or 158s, with examples of both types coming from TFW and EMR.

As they were 2-car sets, adapting for the post-2020 regulations was more viable. 7 sets is still a microfleet, but perhaps the sale+leaseback deal between West Yorkshire PTE and Porterbrook guaranteed lower leasing charges? Particularly compared with anything else that would have been available at the time. The idea of surplus Sprinters to replace them is only really becoming a possibility in the coming months, from EMR.

 

[387star]

As they were 2-car sets, adapting for the post-2020 regulations was more viable. 7 sets is still a microfleet, but perhaps the sale+leaseback deal between West Yorkshire PTE and Porterbrook guaranteed lower leasing charges? Particularly compared with anything else that would have been available at the time. The idea of surplus Sprinters to replace them is only really becoming a possibility in the coming months, from EMR.

They also spent presumably substantial sums on corrosion repairs as they worked on the first unit for a very long time

 

[Towers]

As they were 2-car sets, adapting for the post-2020 regulations was more viable. 7 sets is still a microfleet, but perhaps the sale+leaseback deal between West Yorkshire PTE and Porterbrook guaranteed lower leasing charges? Particularly compared with anything else that would have been available at the time. The idea of surplus Sprinters to replace them is only really becoming a possibility in the coming months, from EMR.

Just to clarify, are the 155s now owned by Porterbrook, not the PTE?

I seem to recall a comment somewhere years ago that BR intended to convert them to 153s along with all the others, but the owning PTE declined to let them!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just to clarify, are the 155s now owned by Porterbrook, not the PTE?

I seem to recall a comment somewhere years ago that BR intended to convert them to 153s along with all the others, but the owning PTE declined to let them!

Yes, the 155s (and the 10 class 144 Motor Standard vehicles) were sold to Porterbrook several years ago.

On the 153 thing, my understanding was that BR had assumed that all 42 class 155s would be converted, but luckily someone within Metro was clued up enough on rail operations that they knew single-car units would be of limited use in West Yorkshire as they'd spend most of the time paired up anyway- after all at the time there were 141s for the really low-demand routes. So the WY units just got the reliability mods instead of being split.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is there any particular reason Wikipedia preceeds all classes with "British Rail"? Eg British rail class 777... Does this term simply relate to the fact they're operated in Britain?

One day, I expect they will be called "Great British Rail class xxx".

 

[plugwash]

Is there any particular reason Wikipedia preceeds all classes with "British Rail"? Eg British rail class 777... Does this term simply relate to the fact they're operated in Britain?

AIUI it relates to the fact that the classification scheme created by British Rail doesn't seem to have a well-known unambiguous name in the post-privatization era. So Wikipedia decided the least bad thing to do was to keep using the term "British rail" to identify the classification scheme, even for trains that were built post BR.

 

[Bald Rick]

It is sobering to think that another 10 years or so will see the 465s approaching 40 years old. I say sobering, as I still think of them as “new”.

Unlike a few years ago, the odds on them reaching that age are probably fairly safe now

what odds are you offering? I might be interested

 

[Irascible]

The 1990s EMUs seem to have had a shorter life, the the 365s and 332s going/gone, though the 323s and most of the 465s should be around for a while

Mostly because solid state power control has moved on a long way - somewhat like comparing a reasonably current PC to a 1990 one, I guess. I'd expect the DMUs to last longer.

Are there any 442s in store still :P

 

[bramling]

what odds are you offering? I might be interested

Can we really see a suburban fleet replacement going ahead in the next 5 years? Especially bearing in mind SE now has the 707s.

The only political reason to do it is for the suburban Conservative seats, but this current govt doesn’t seem to care too much for them.

I’ll go for 49/51 in favour of at least some of the 465s still being here in 2030.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’ll go for 49/51 in favour of at least some of the 465s still being here in 2030.

I have my poker face on, but will be putting a big pile of the chips in the ‘against’ box at those odds.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

To me it’s odd to think of Class 166s as being ex BR. They seem newer. Having said that, they’re extremely similar to 465s which don’t seem new at all, and I hope the horrible things are soon all gone.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’ll go for 49/51 in favour of at least some of the 465s still being here in 2030.

My god I hope not.

 

[Class 466]

Well the 465/2s definitely won't be coming back, as for the others, they wont go until there's a replacement. 465/9s are going to be regaining some more mainline work again soon too.

 

[Christmas]

Does anyone know why West Coast removed the Dellner coupler from their class 57? Surely it would be more useful with it in place?

 

[JonathanH]

Does anyone know why West Coast removed the Dellner coupler from their class 57? Surely it would be more useful with it in place?

No use for it on the intended work they have for their class 57s (which is hauling the Northern Belle) so why go to the effort of maintaining it)?

 

[py_megapixel]

To me it’s odd to think of Class 166s as being ex BR. They seem newer. Having said that, they’re extremely similar to 465s which don’t seem new at all, and I hope the horrible things are soon all gone.

I will be extremely irritated if GWR or SE gets to make a Networker replacement order before Northern has a Sprinter one.

 

[JonathanH]

I will be extremely irritated if GWR or SE gets to make a Networker replacement order before Northern has a Sprinter one.

Plenty of sprinter replacements have been built over the years, gradually moving sprinters down the pecking order. If you compare where 150s work now to where they worked when new there are very few routes that have been 150 operated throughout their lives.

The same applies to 156s and 158s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I will be extremely irritated if GWR or SE gets to make a Networker replacement order before Northern has a Sprinter one.

I disagree with the SE comment. The Networkers work in London routes where thirty year old stock is absolutely unacceptable.

 

[Gloster]

Think of us oldies seeing time match implacably on. I can remember as a teenager going to see the prototype HST and also making a trip to see the new 313. Still, I have travelled behind a Deltic on full throttle north of York, gone over Drumochter behind a 26, passed Goose Hill Junction behind a Peak, gone up the bank to Exeter Central behind a 33 on ten, etc. Eat your hearts out, youngsters.

 

[JonathanH]

I disagree with the SE comment. The Networkers work in London routes where thirty year old stock is absolutely unacceptable.

How is it unacceptable to have thirty year old stock? There are some strong views against Networkers here but they still do their job well. They still feel sufficiently modern. Their predecessors didn't when they were retired.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

How is it unacceptable to have thirty year old stock? There are some strong views against Networkers here but they still do their job well. They still feel sufficiently modern. Their predecessors didn't when they were retired.

Assuming you travel on them regularly, as you know them well enough to say they’re still adquate, then you must have noticed how they’re in a dire state.