Opinions on Class 80x trains vs HSTs?

[LiftFan]

80x's do have their advantages, being better performance on electric, mostly not using diesel underneath wires, better station dwell times (with people leaving the manual Mk3 doors open at each stop).

For GWR I can only compare as I've used both HSTs and 800/802s extensively with them. In Standard Class, the seats were more comfortable on the HSTs however were still badly aligned with the windows. First Class however is the biggest downgrade in my opinion, with those lovely big leather seats, the dimmed lighting, the full buffet with hot food have been replaced for seats that are barely more comfortable than in Standard, lukewarm drinks and limited snacks and lighting which is just too harsh in the dark hours.

 

[MattRat]

"Everyone wants an 80x now"

On the ECML now, I tend to try and get mk4 services because the Mallard refurbishment gives better passenger comfort.

I meant the TOCs. Clearly they see an advantage to them.

Well, except compared to the Pendolino....

 

[yorksrob]

I meant the TOCs. Clearly they see an advantage to them.

Well, except compared to the Pendolino....

Indeed, though it's news to us passengers

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I've traveled 1st Class on a LNER 8xx, and a HST Standard Class Mk3 still puts it to shame...

I've voted HST on the basis of comfort. I've heard the EMR 8xx units are to have more padded seating, so maybe in time I'll change my mind or they will be equal in comfort.

 

[XAM2175]

Well I'll admit, I have no idea if such a creature still exists, but I do know they were like armchairs.

The Chiltern Mk 3 sets still have IC70s. Hateful bloody things they are, but you do you and all that!

 

[fgwrich]

Which HSTs can you still melt into "Mk3 seats" on?


The Trailer Guard Standard on a Mark 3 was somewhat less claustrophobic than a IET standard class driving end vehicles.

ScotRails ex GWR First Class?

While I don’t mind the LNER version of the IET as much (they’ve certainly designed out some of the issues that their Great Western cousins still suffer from), the Mk3 still to me sets the standard. Be it from a lack of noise (the wind noise in the driving vehicles of the IETs are awful, and yes, I can still hear the Diesel engine / traction motor whine inside them) to the lighting design, to the luggage layout and space, to the seats themselves. Personally, I rather wish that the Mk3s had received plug or sliding doors and various other modern features a lot earlier in their history.

As for the Mk4. The less said, the better. I didn’t enjoy my trip to Edinburgh (being above the bogie didn’t help) in 2020, and actually preferred the return IET.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

"Everyone wants an 80x now"

On the ECML now, I tend to try and get mk4 services because the Mallard refurbishment gives better passenger comfort.

Just a pity they aren’t very reliable….

 

[yorksrob]

Just a pity they aren’t very reliable….

Is that the mk4's or the locos ?

Yes, I've had the odd cancellation of them, but I'm glad they're there.

 

[Irascible]

The original HST seats were certainly reasonably OK if you were agile enough to get past the middle armrest, but I wouldn't call them "melt into the seat". The ones they used before those on the Mk2 aircon stock were nicer. Having tried a GW 80x I'm not trying another one.

 

[43096]

Yes, but they have gone.

Oh no they haven’t: https://www.125group.org.uk/running-days-in-april-2022/

125 Group is delighted to announce its first running days for over two years.​

With the kind agreement of our hosts at the Midland Railway Centre, our production HST will be making its first passenger operations since we took ownership during the weekend of 2nd and 3rd April 2022.

Running a shortened set, we will be providing the timetabled servicethroughout the weekend with power cars 43048 and World Speed Record Holder 43159. This will not only be 125 Group’s first operation of our own preserved HST, but will also be the first time that an HST has operated in passenger service on the Midland Railway Trust line.

In addition to the overall operation, we will be opening Buffet 125 serving drinks and snacks in trailer car 40730, together with a good range of products available from Shop 125.

Ticket sales and revenue will support the Midland Railway Trust and development of their operations whilst all sales on board will support our ongoing preservation efforts. Come and take a ride with us through Derbyshire’s delightful countryside and enjoy some HST action.

 

[gaillark]

80x's do have their advantages, being better performance on electric, mostly not using diesel underneath wires, better station dwell times (with people leaving the manual Mk3 doors open at each stop).

For GWR I can only compare as I've used both HSTs and 800/802s extensively with them. In Standard Class, the seats were more comfortable on the HSTs however were still badly aligned with the windows. First Class however is the biggest downgrade in my opinion, with those lovely big leather seats, the dimmed lighting, the full buffet with hot food have been replaced for seats that are barely more comfortable than in Standard, lukewarm drinks and limited snacks and lighting which is just too harsh in the dark hours.

Totally agree. HST first class was first class.
IET first class is a massive downgrade. Lighting is dreadful. Privacy is poor. Plethera of automated announcements. Filthy windows. Filthy carpets.Lack of soft furnishings.
Catering has been downgraded to all. Really miss the buffet car and HOT food. There is no hot food available on GWR (other than Pullman restaurant).
GWR promised and implemented a first class service similar to LNER and Avanti when the 800's were first introduced but quickly withdrawn.
As for train formations on GWR you dont know where 1st is as it could be at the front and rear, middle, middle and front or middle and rear. There is no consistency on GWR.
Toilets provision is poor. Also design on 80x is poor as when sitting in first on the first table you have the unfortunate full view of people sitting on the throne doing the business as they haven't locked the door and for everybody going to/from the loo the toilet is in full view constantly. Poor design.

 

[yorksrob]

Toilet provision is a very real down side of modern trains.

2 per carriage for a mk3. You're lucky if you get one between two on modern trains.

 

[LiftFan]

Totally agree. HST first class was first class.
IET first class is a massive downgrade. Lighting is dreadful. Privacy is poor. Plethera of automated announcements. Filthy windows. Filthy carpets.Lack of soft furnishings.
Catering has been downgraded to all. Really miss the buffet car and HOT food. There is no hot food available on GWR (other than Pullman restaurant).
GWR promised and implemented a first class service similar to LNER and Avanti when the 800's were first introduced but quickly withdrawn.
As for train formations on GWR you dont know where 1st is as it could be at the front and rear, middle, middle and front or middle and rear. There is no consistency on GWR.
Toilets provision is poor. Also design on 80x is poor as when sitting in first on the first table you have the unfortunate full view of people sitting on the throne doing the business as they haven't locked the door and for everybody going to/from the loo the toilet is in full view constantly. Poor design.

I really miss the years of past, getting a freshly cooked bacon sandwich in the morning. The trolley barely ever has sandwiches nowadays, so on any long trip it's making do with a few cups of tea and those small packages of biscuits with the odd snack box thrown in

 

[Jimini]

I really miss the years of past, getting a freshly cooked bacon sandwich in the morning. The trolley barely ever has sandwiches nowadays, so on any long trip it's making do with a few cups of tea and those small packages of biscuits with the odd snack box thrown in

All nostalgia these days, of course, but the HST buffet cars leaving Paddington in the evening rush 'hour' basically doubled up as a pub, with loads of people standing around by the counter sinking a quick ale on their way back to Reading and beyond.

 

[fgwrich]

All nostalgia these days, of course, but the HST buffet cars leaving Paddington in the evening rush 'hour' basically doubled up as a pub, with loads of people standing around by the counter sinking a quick ale on their way back to Reading and beyond.

And what an enjoyable experience that was. Myself and a few of my colleagues enjoyed a few Tribute's after a decent days work in the capital.

This is I still feel, one of the biggest missed opportunities on the 9 car Western IETs. At least Virgin managed to get a shop included into theirs.

 

[yorksrob]

Sat in a massively comfortable arm chair, watching as Wellingborough goes by, enjoying a reasonably priced and beautifully presented hot meal or sandwich on proper crockery.

Oh heaven it was to be alive.

 

[MattRat]

And what an enjoyable experience that was. Myself and a few of my colleagues enjoyed a few Tribute's after a decent days work in the capital.

This is I still feel, one of the biggest missed opportunities on the 9 car Western IETs. At least Virgin managed to get a shop included into theirs.

And in tilting stock (tilt takes up room). Really a marvel of engineering when you think about it. So were HSTs when first built. The FLIRTs are more advanced than the IETs now though.

 

[Prestige15]

.

 

[gaillark]

All nostalgia these days, of course, but the HST buffet cars leaving Paddington in the evening rush 'hour' basically doubled up as a pub, with loads of people standing around by the counter sinking a quick ale on their way back to Reading and beyond.

And don't forget when the HST's were first introduced the buffet served draft beer in those days ust like a real pub - hand pulled.
Yes the buffet area was a real social space, great atmosphere, a place for lots of conversations and importantly a place where passengers often went to for ticket queries, seeking emergency help or information such as connections as it was a place were staff could easily be found.
The 800 does not allow for this customer service .
And as @fgwrich says a missed opportunity on the 9 car western fleet. That's also the problem with 800/802 ... that the kitchen is in the wrong place.

 

[Ashley Hill]

And don't forget when the HST's were first introduced the buffet served draft beer in those days ust like a real pub - hand pulled.
Yes the buffet area was a real social space, great atmosphere, a place for lots of conversations and importantly a place where passengers often went to for ticket queries, seeking emergency help or information such as connections as it was a place were staff could easily be found.
The 800 does not allow for this customer service .
And as @fgwrich says a missed opportunity on the 9 car western fleet. That's also the problem with 800/802 ... that the kitchen is in the wrong place.

Watneys Red Barrel was hardly hand pulled Yes the buffet was often a social area right to the end. On the 1835 from Paddington quite a crowd assembled around the buffet daily for Hungerford and Bedwyn. Wine and beer was consumed in copious amounts. Come the IETs that social scene was lost and was never the same again even pre-covid.

 

[irish_rail]

Totally agree. HST first class was first class.
IET first class is a massive downgrade. Lighting is dreadful. Privacy is poor. Plethera of automated announcements. Filthy windows. Filthy carpets.Lack of soft furnishings.
Catering has been downgraded to all. Really miss the buffet car and HOT food. There is no hot food available on GWR (other than Pullman restaurant).
GWR promised and implemented a first class service similar to LNER and Avanti when the 800's were first introduced but quickly withdrawn.
As for train formations on GWR you dont know where 1st is as it could be at the front and rear, middle, middle and front or middle and rear. There is no consistency on GWR.
Toilets provision is poor. Also design on 80x is poor as when sitting in first on the first table you have the unfortunate full view of people sitting on the throne doing the business as they haven't locked the door and for everybody going to/from the loo the toilet is in full view constantly. Poor design.

Well said totally agree with this post.

 

[greyman42]

The Chiltern Mk 3 sets still have IC70s. Hateful bloody things they are, but you do you and all that!

I like the Chiltern loco hauled sets for the decent seats.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2022 ==

Toilet provision is a very real down side of modern trains.

2 per carriage for a mk3. You're lucky if you get one between two on modern trains.

I actually think that the toilets on the 80x are one of the few pluses.

 

[yorksrob]

I like the Chiltern loco hauled sets for the decent seats.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2022 ==


I actually think that the toilets on the 80x are one of the few pluses.

They seem to work alright, although you're down to one per carriage.

 

[greyman42]

They seem to work alright, although you're down to one per carriage.

I find that having two at the same end is far better than if they had one at each end.

 

[yorksrob]

I find that having two at the same end is far better than if they had one at each end.

Do they have two at each carriage end ?

I've not noticed but if so then yes, that's definitely a plus point.

 

[greyman42]

Do they have two at each carriage end ?

I've not noticed but if so then yes, that's definitely a plus point.

No, just two at one end but i find it better than one at each end as you can end up queuing for quite a while if the person in the toilet has decided to make a day of it!

 

[Wolfie]

Toilet provision is a very real down side of modern trains.

2 per carriage for a mk3. You're lucky if you get one between two on modern trains.

Easier to do with no requirement for either accessibility or retention tanks. Perhaps acceptable 50 years ago....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2022 ==

I like the Chiltern loco hauled sets for the decent seats.

I avoided them for exactly that reason. IC70s and a spinal issue were an awful mix.

 

[Bayum]

80x's do have their advantages, being better performance on electric, mostly not using diesel underneath wires, better station dwell times (with people leaving the manual Mk3 doors open at each stop).

How do 80xs compare with powered MK3 doors a la ECML and GW?

 

[cactustwirly]

Went on my first GWR mini HST today, first time on one since March 2020 (EMR), and ages since I was last on a GWR set.
Traveled immediately on a 802 back to Reading, so good chance to compare.

I thought I would prefer the HST, I have missed them I have to admit. But I think that was rose tinted spectacles.
The 802 was the superior train, it was much smoother and modern. I thought it rode a bit better too.
The HSTs are very nice, I really enjoy travelling on them. It was a mini blast from the past. But for a 21st century railway the 802s better.

 

[MattRat]

Went on my first GWR mini HST today, first time on one since March 2020 (EMR), and ages since I was last on a GWR set.
Traveled immediately on a 802 back to Reading, so good chance to compare.

I thought I would prefer the HST, I have missed them I have to admit. But I think that was rose tinted spectacles.
The 802 was the superior train, it was much smoother and modern. I thought it rode a bit better too.
The HSTs are very nice, I really enjoy travelling on them. It was a mini blast from the past. But for a 21st century railway the 802s better.

Bear in mind the GWML is a much smoother track. I'm quite confident in saying it's the smoothest track on the entire network.