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Opinions on Class 80x trains vs HSTs?
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Mikey C
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It's a blanket generalisation to say that IET seats are worse than those on older trains anyway, as there have been so many different types of seating on HSTs, never mind other stock
The ex LNER ones have nice seats, the GWR ones aren't bad but being so high are rather claustrophobic AND the lighting rather bright. The more traditional IC70 ones on the EMR I don't find comfortable at all, being too low, and with those annoying and not very ergonomic fixed armrests. Indeed I much prefer the 222 seating
The ex LNER ones have nice seats, the GWR ones aren't bad but being so high are rather claustrophobic AND the lighting rather bright. The more traditional IC70 ones on the EMR I don't find comfortable at all, being too low, and with those annoying and not very ergonomic fixed armrests. Indeed I much prefer the 222 seating
Before or after accounting for VW Fraud?
Purple Orange
On Moderation
I’ll insert a handshake icon back at you.
But back to the seats for a minute, I bought a sofa with my partner, Pink Apple, and in the shop it felt fantastic to sit in. You know that moment when you sit in just the right chair and all pressure is taken away from your body? It was that. Pink Apple and I immediately started a conversation with the sales assistant about 0% finance deals.
Anyway, the sofa arrives, the delivery guys put it in the living room. We get rid of the plastic wrapping. Pink Apple and I stand in front of the sofa, back of our legs against the bottom of the seat. We hold hands and then, like synchronised swimmers, we fall back in to the sofa. Heaven awaits.
F***ing hell! Man!
It was like diving backwards in to an empty swimming pool. Hard as hell and now we were paying nearly £100 a month on direct debit.
Anyway, we’ve had this sofa for 10 years now. Most comfortable sofa ever. Wouldn’t swap it for the world.
That’s irrelevant. I can do, and regularly have done, 500 miles in my Golf on approx 32 litres of diesel. With four of us in it, that works out at 26.8gCO2/passenger km. Which is rather better than the average rate for U.K. rail passengers (36.6g), of which the overwhelming majority is electric.
I’m playing devil’s advocate here, just to make the point that it isn’t as clear cut as ‘rail good, road bad’ across the board.
squizzler
Established Member
As a singleton, for most of my trips if I wanted three other in the car with me to boost the per person fuel economy over a long trip I would have to go out and find some hitch hikers. Then I would be in a worse position than in a train, since if they were boorish company or had poor personal hygiene I would not have the opportunity of looking for a place to sit away from them.
Well yes. Although you could claim that your car isn’t quite as efficient as it is, and get them to pay for all of it.
The HST was probably an amazing train when it was new, but it is old and the IET is a much better train. Yes, the seats could be a little better but having doors that are easy to open from the inside and being electric are huge advantages. If you want the train to be an attractive way of getting from A to B, a good start is to not have the major stations full of diesel exhaust.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
Yes clean air. Imagine how much Birmingham New Street could be!
It’s been a while since I was last at Paddington station, but I wonder of the roof was cleaned would it come up looking pristine like St. Pancras does, now that GWR Azumas are in operation.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The improvement to the environment at Paddington is significant, even with the odd DMU still knocking around. On a summer's day it used to be thick with the fug of diesel fumes and human urine and faeces. Now the air is much fresher and pleasantly quiet, too.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
Now, was that HST related or just Londoner related?
coppercapped
Established Member
The biggest single difference was the addition of effective filters to the kitchen exhaust of the Burger King outlet near the end of platform 8.
This stank of hot cooking oil which couldn't dissipate because it vented under the overall roof. Network Rail had to abandon measurements it was trying to make of the level of diesel exhaust because the cooking oil interfered with the measurements.
The filters were fitted to the Burger King about three years ago, just at the time the IEPs were entering service. So, as usual, the IEPs and Class 387s weren't the entire or only reason for the improvement in the air quality.
Anyway, for those of us who grew up with a row of pannier tanks on the blocks the proper atmosphere went a long time ago...
coppercapped
Established Member
I agree, the HST was an amazing train when it was new. Compared with the typical train of the time made up of Mark 2 coaches of various vintages, sometimes with a sprinkling of Mark 1 coaches, the HST was quieter, the brakes were silent in contrast to cast iron clasp brakes, all the train was air conditioned and the bogies had secondary air suspension which removed most of the high frequency vertical 'nervousness' from the ride which was a feature of the B4 bogies under the coaches it replaced. The much discussed smell from hot brake pads was largely resolved within a couple of years by adding flaps to the air conditioning air intakes which operated when the brakes were applied. Observed externally disc braked wheels made very much less noise when running past at speed than did clasp braked wheels — this was especially noticeable on the west coast main line when mixed formations of Mark 2 and Mark 3 stock went past.
With the HST BR increased train top speeds by 25% — overnight. The difference between older stock and the HST was as if one had entered a different world.
My take on the IEP/Class 80x/whatever is that it is an enormous missed opportunity and has several design flaws. BR spent a lot of time and effort in improving the 'mechanics' of the trains. After the BT10 bogie of the Mark 3 it introduced the Series 3 bogie which did away with swing links in the secondary suspension and used the flexibility of the air bags to simplify the secondary suspension and improve the ride. The Series 4 bogie was a further development and was in my experience the best riding of all BR's designs, at least up to 90mph the top speed of the only class of trains, the 158, to use it.
I would have expected that 50 years after the inception of the BT10 bogie the IEP would have offered another step change in ride quality and offer a silky smooth, quiet, vibration free ride. It doesn't. The bogie suspension is not well controlled, I hear and feel bangs, sometimes quite loud, when running over some switch and crossing work and sometimes, inexcusably, on straight track as well. There is a residual highish frequency vibration through the floor and seats and one train I was travelling on started a high amplitude vibration at speeds in excess of 115mph. It felt like an out-of-balance wheel in a car and reminded me of a slightly run-down B4 bogie under a Mark 1 coach. I have never travelled on a well maintained Mark 3 coach - the design of which commenced in 1969 - which exhibited such behaviour.
It is almost impossible to keep the windows on an IEP clean, the glass is more recessed in the frames than is the case with almost any recent rolling stock operated in the UK and the vortices generated off the edge deposit grime on the glass. The deep door pockets are as bad - why produce a design which requires more maintenance to keep it looking clean than needed?
I for one am very disappointed with the IEP. It is, at best, only marginally better than the 40 year old coaches it is replacing each of which has several million miles on the clock. I would have expected something much, much better — smoother, quieter, more sophisticated and internally elegant.
Edit: Corrected typos.
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Absolutely. This is one of the main problems I have with the ride too. The constant vibration. It seems unlikely this will be fixed soon (ever?) too, it's been there since they were new and shows no signs of changing. Comparing to a Mk3 they are way less smooth in terms of the constant vibration question (aside from how they ride over joints, junctions, uneven track, etc.).
Succinctly put. Such trains are available, too, from other manufacturers, clearly. I remember the first time I went on a Class 395 Javelin being disappointed too, because of the high levels of noise (several years ago of course, when most of the trains I was travelling on were HSTs …). As soon as the IETs were announced, I was worried that they would have the (relatively) low levels of internal comfort that the 395s do. I haven't been on one of the latter for ages so don't know how they compare.
As someone who worked in the train manufacturing industry for many years, specifically on seating and floor coverings, I can honestly say that the quality of seating in recently built trains is far inferior to older trains such as the HST.
I normally do 2 or 3 return trips to London each year. I always used to travel by HST from/to TM. When I last went up by train I had an 800/3 both ways. Like many others I found the train OK except for the seats which had me in pain by Didcot. I had to get up and stand for a while to relieve the pain in my back and hips. Coming back I managed to put up with the seat as far as Chippenham. Until the seats are drastically improved I won’t be taking the train to London. My last trip I went up and back on Megabus, which although significantly slower had comfortable seats and as a bonus was much cheaper than even an advance single. I have also done it on SWT via Salisbury, but the timings of these services don’t usually fit in with my plans. This is a shame because the seats in a 159 are comfortable and the units generally in good condition internally.
irish_rail
On Moderation
159s definitely the choice in terms of comfort now from south west to London, if not for speed.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Good lord, no. I prefer to have some ears left. After a 4 and a bit hour journey west on a 159, I splashed the credit card for an IET trip back, and my ears were happy.
15x are incredibly noisy, and 158s in particular have a horrid whine from the engine/transmission which is really unpleasant on the ears.
Nicest 158 journey I ever had was on a TPE set in the middle coach with the engine out and the windows open. Shame BR never built LHCS based on what is otherwise quite a good design.
We all love HSTs - not just their melt-into Mk3 seats, but what they signified in the change in our railways, and British pride in "Worlds Fastest Diesel Train".
But I put it to you that maybe the class 800 et al are actually to be welcomed. Ok, 2 x 5 car sets annoy me, lack of buffet car annoys me (though I understand why) and the seating annoys plenty of people - but that is DfT penny pinching, Even though they are 'economy', Lumo have shown this can be improved and EMT and Avanti are making a big fuss about seat comfort.
However, 800s are sooo much more reliable than HSTs and so much more green. The interior seems so much less claustrophobic and ride comfort is fine (so long as you choose the right coach!). Being greener and cheaper to run can only be good for the long-term future of the railway.
But I put it to you that maybe the class 800 et al are actually to be welcomed. Ok, 2 x 5 car sets annoy me, lack of buffet car annoys me (though I understand why) and the seating annoys plenty of people - but that is DfT penny pinching, Even though they are 'economy', Lumo have shown this can be improved and EMT and Avanti are making a big fuss about seat comfort.
However, 800s are sooo much more reliable than HSTs and so much more green. The interior seems so much less claustrophobic and ride comfort is fine (so long as you choose the right coach!). Being greener and cheaper to run can only be good for the long-term future of the railway.
Which HSTs can you still melt into "Mk3 seats" on?
The Trailer Guard Standard on a Mark 3 was somewhat less claustrophobic than a IET standard class driving end vehicles.
The 1st class seats on the MML sets were like particularly comfortable arm chairs. Nothing as good on the network today.
Yes, but they have gone.
I wasn't aware of a time limit on this thread.
If there were, I would have to say that I still prefer the space and comfort of a XC HST (the only ones still going I've been on) over an 8xx. I suppose they're equivalent to a Mallard mk4 in terms of comfort.
The OP wrote their first point in the current tense.
Either way, XC HST !
Which got replaced and which didn't. HSTs were workhorses, but everyone wants an 80x now, and not without reason. The quality of the product could be better, but they are a modern train.
However, they won't be replacing the Pendolino's, and that's saying something considering they are more than happy to replace Voyagers with 80x, so it's not just the tilt. Clearly the Pendolino is something special. It can still work in a modern railway, keep up with the new generation. That should be respected.
However, they won't be replacing the Pendolino's, and that's saying something considering they are more than happy to replace Voyagers with 80x, so it's not just the tilt. Clearly the Pendolino is something special. It can still work in a modern railway, keep up with the new generation. That should be respected.
DanNCL
Established Member
Where’s the Mark 4 option? 
Well I'll admit, I have no idea if such a creature still exists, but I do know they were like armchairs.
But in general, refurbished HSTs with high-backed seats can seem very enclosing, where as a combination of the seats and that much loved (!) bright lighting makes the 800 much more open
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Yes, current tense please! I do understand that all the best bits of 40+ years of HSTs have written an awesome legacy but I'm just sayng that now, in 2022 maybe we have to accept that things need to change or they can never improve.
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"Everyone wants an 80x now"
On the ECML now, I tend to try and get mk4 services because the Mallard refurbishment gives better passenger comfort.
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