Should preserved railways 1940s events go ahead this year?

[Peter Sarf]

You might question the appearance of the likes of "Goering" at events - but there are some people who follow "alternative" or "What if History".

Until it became in the latter series excessively bogged down with the SciFi timetravel - parallel universe Amazon's "Man in the High Castle" was an interesting drama depicting what could have happened if the Axis nations had won World War II.

Given that the Germans came close enough to occupy the Channel Islands - it was more good fortune than anything else that they didn't make it onto mainland soil.

Thus personally, as someone who is interested in history, I would have no problem with a re-enactment of scenes that could have happened here - but thank God didn't.

I wouldn't be offended by such things and would see them as instructive to future generations as to why totalitarian regimes are bad.

I agree. The UK came chillingly close to defeat. Hitler turning his attention Eastwards towards Russia gave us a breathing space. If Hitler had left his military commanders to finish us off first then by now we might be behind the Iron Curtain at best.... The point is history gives us clues and answers to the future and shows what happens if we are complacent. If re-enactments help kindle some interest then I am pleased.

 

[35B]

You might question the appearance of the likes of "Goering" at events - but there are some people who follow "alternative" or "What if History".

Until it became in the latter series excessively bogged down with the SciFi timetravel - parallel universe Amazon's "Man in the High Castle" was an interesting drama depicting what could have happened if the Axis nations had won World War II.

Given that the Germans came close enough to occupy the Channel Islands - it was more good fortune than anything else that they didn't make it onto mainland soil.

Thus personally, as someone who is interested in history, I would have no problem with a re-enactment of scenes that could have happened here - but thank God didn't.

I wouldn't be offended by such things and would see them as instructive to future generations as to why totalitarian regimes are bad.

What ifs are always interesting, and can be valuable; whether fiction or written with a more academic focus; I found the concept of SS GB interesting a few years ago when it was on. What I struggle with is the boundary between history and entertainment, where my feeling is that the wartime events at heritage railways are too little about history, and too much about entertainment.

What I struggle with is the use of such dioramas within the context of an entertainment event. I'm neither convinced that they do demonstrate why totalitarian regimes are bad, nor that they don't trivialise the nature of the evil of such regimes. The best examples of educational displays I've ever seen about man's inhumanity to man always take a very spare approach, allowing visitors to engage with the subject matter thoughtfully and carefully. For example, the Auschwitz Museum (somewhere I've yet to visit but will do) pays great care to conservation of it's exhibits, in as unsensational a way as possible, using it's online and Twitter presence to focus very precisely on the facts of what did happen there.

I'd also add a note of caution about how "good" and "bad" are portrayed. As a student, I spent time in the PRO researching British policy in the run up to the Nuremberg Trial. I found a number of files there which were closed, subject to the 100 year rule. I've never had cause to follow up, but from where they fell in the sequence, I have always had a nasty feeling that they may have related to war crimes committed by Allied troops - something I may one day follow up.

 

[Trainfan344]

Great Central Railway have cancelled their 1940s event.

Quoted from social media

Weekend Celebration of the Queens Platinum Jubilee

Due to the tragic ongoing conflict in the Ukraine, the Great Central Railway have decided to cancel their annual 1940’s Wartime Weekend at the beginning of June.
For this year, we have decided to theme the weekend to cover the history of the first fifty years of our Queen’s life, a pageant celebrating Her Majesty’s Platinum Jubilee.
As usual the event will be across all four stations at the railway with each station highlighting different periods from the 1920’s up to the 1970’s.

The event starts of on Thursday 2nd June with the Platinum Afternoon Tea attended by various dignitaries followed by The Thursday Night Swing Band. There will be an old time fun fair for all to enjoy, entertainers throughout the 4 days taking us through the songs and music of the time, vintage vehicles, fashion shows, demonstrations, shopping village, our Saturday night Big Band dance, fly past, flying acrobatics, re-enactors showcasing fashion from 1920 onwards, the Marching Pipe Band plus more!

Michael Gough, Managing Director, commented “Like most of us in the UK we are appalled at the atrocities unfolding in the Ukraine and feel that an event depicting wartime would be highly insensitive at this saddening time. The opportunity to depict our Queen’s life on the occasion of her Platinum Jubilee year feels far more appropriate and it promises to be a truly stunning 4 days of celebration”

The event runs from Thursday 2nd June to Sunday 5th June, full details will be on our web site soon.

 

[Vespa]

Great Central Railway have cancelled their 1940s event.

Quoted from social media

I don't see the point of virtue signalling, if they want lose valuable income after 2 years of covid restrictions, let them take the hit, I would have been more pragmatic about it and incorporated an Ukraininan refugee fund stand for the public to make a contribution alongside the WW2 event.

 

[XAM2175]

I would have been more pragmatic about it and incorporated an Ukraininan refugee fund stand for the public to make a contribution alongside the WW2 event.

How virtuous of you.

 

[Vespa]

How virtuous of you.

No need to be sarcastic.

 

[MattRat]

Next people will be saying talking about WW1 is insensitive....

Oh wait, nevermind, we barely talk about it anyway since there's no easy country to hate.

 

[yoyothehobo]

One point is that who are the 1940s events being ran for? Who particularly enjoys them the most and is going to them above and beyond normal heritage days out.

A lot of people are incredibly anxious about current events and if they want to spend their leisure time, they will more than likely not want to spend it thinking about wars. (And before people say this is just the younger generation being snowflakes or virtuous i know several people who are in their 60s and 70s who are just as anxious about the whole thing having lived through the cold war etc...)

Yes there have been wars all over the place since the end of WW2, however this is probably been the most pertinent in recent years and given just how much media coverage is available these days, everyone has a phone, everyone is a reporter it can be difficult to avoid the wall to wall coverage it is getting. I myself have had to limit how much time spent looking at the news to avoid it becoming all consuming.

At the end of the day it is an effort to put on these weekends and if the punters will not be drawn to it for whatever reason then it is wasted resources. I can also find it very easy for those with young children, who know about the war going on in Ukraine, to turn up and find soldiers on the street or whatever getup the role playing is undertaking, to be heavily affected by the situation.

At the end of the day though, it will come down to money and if there is the idea that a "Wartime Weekend" will be a turnoff for the general public (rather than a photo opportunity for those who come but dont actually get on the trains) then that will be a reason not to do it. Remember that there is a lot of competition for the leisure pounds at the weekend and if you turn someone away, it is very very hard to get them back.

 

[LucyP]

When hasn't there been some war, somewhere in the world? So why does it matter now? What has some little theatrical sketch of wartime Britain 80 years ago on a heritage railway, got to do with a real war, in another country?

 

[yoyothehobo]

When hasn't there been some war, somewhere in the world? So why does it matter now? What has some little theatrical sketch of wartime Britain 80 years ago on a heritage railway, got to do with a real war, in another country?

Well people have got to want to go for it to be worthwhile, and this is quite close to home and all consuming of the media at the moment. If people arent going to go - for whatever reason - why would you go to the expense of putting it on.

I personally wouldnt bother going to a 1940s wartime event, just dont really care for the pantomime, i would rather go to the Imperial War Museum or similar (and have several times and always found it fascinating).

But its money at the end of the day, and there is a very high chance at the moment, people will take theirs elsewhere.

 

[MattRat]

When hasn't there been some war, somewhere in the world? So why does it matter now? What has some little theatrical sketch of wartime Britain 80 years ago on a heritage railway, got to do with a real war, in another country?

Careful there. You might be branded a Putin supporter. You do make a point about exposure though. Sure, social media has created its own exposure, but even like for like with the MSM, there's been more reporting than say, Iraq or Afghanistan, which were also large countries invading a smaller one.

 

[12C]

One point is that who are the 1940s events being ran for? Who particularly enjoys them the most and is going to them above and beyond normal heritage days

As there are very few surviving people with actual memories of the war I think they’re mainly aimed the following generation who sometimes have a romanticised ‘Dad’s Army’ view of what wartime would actually have been like in the UK. All my (mostly now deceased) relatives who fought or lived through WWII found it a harrowing experience which they rarely wanted to talk about, and certainly would have no interest in looking back with rose tinted glasses at these events. Snowflakes they were not.

Personally I think given the general anxiety amongst the public about the Ukraine situation and how it could escalate, and the huge amount of expense and planning that goes into these events, putting them off this year could be a good call. I noticed the Great Central is replacing the wartime weekend with a Jubilee celebration which seems a nice idea. However of course people will vote with their feet, some railways are keeping the events on and customers can choose who to support as they wish.

 

[MattRat]

As there are very few surviving people with actual memories of the war I think they’re mainly aimed the following generation who sometimes have a romanticised ‘Dad’s Army’ view of what wartime would actually have been like in the UK. All my (mostly now deceased) relatives who fought or lived through WWII found it a harrowing experience which they rarely wanted to talk about, and certainly would have no interest in looking back with rose tinted glasses at these events. Snowflakes they were not.

Personally I think given the general anxiety amongst the public about the Ukraine situation and how it could escalate, and the huge amount of expense and planning that goes into these events, putting them off this year could be a good call. I noticed the Great Central is replacing the wartime weekend with a Jubilee celebration which seems a nice idea. However of course people will vote with their feet, some railways are keeping the events on and customers can choose who to support as they wish.

My Grandad also served in the war, and while I get what you mean, he always went on a remembrance walk when he was able to, up to near his death. I think he would want for history to be remembered as much as possible, and something like this would probably worry him.

 

[12C]

My Grandad also served in the war, and while I get what you mean, he always went on a remembrance walk when he was able to, up to near his death. I think he would want for history to be remembered as much as possible, and something like this would probably worry him.

Indeed, I can appreciate it is very important to not allow history to be forgotten and mine too would attend rememberance services. There is a difference though between rememberence and educational events (such as museums) and entertainment which I feel these events more fall into.

 

[MattRat]

Indeed, I can appreciate it is very important to not allow history to be forgotten and mine too would attend rememberance services. There is a difference though between rememberence and educational events (such as museums) and entertainment which I feel these events more fall into.

They could be reworked of course. Maybe have them as schools trips with the teacher giving a history lesson. They'd certainly remember that particular lesson.

 

[EdChap]

North Yorkshire Moors Railway have cancelled their 1940's event, apparently on advice of Heritage Railway Association.

 

[gc4946]

I'll wait and see if Haworth's village 1940s event, planned for 21st-22nd May, is cancelled depending on future developments.
Their website http://haworths1940sweekend.com/ is unavailable just now
but their Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/haworth1940s/ looks as though it's going ahead according to 9th March post
"The organisers of the Haworth 1940s weekend stand firmly with the Ukrainian people. No Russian goods or anything connected to the Russian regime will knowingly be sold at this event."
The Worth Valley promotes the village's event as "Let the train take the strain and arrive in style at Haworth Station, with regular services running and ample parking at other stations" https://kwvr.co.uk/event/haworth-1940s-weekend/2022-05-21/

 

[kje7812]

North Yorkshire Moors Railway have cancelled their 1940's event, apparently on advice of Heritage Railway Association.

This appears to be a bit of spin as several friends have said that the NYMR has previously said they weren't actually doing a 40s event this year.

 

[XAM2175]

My Grandad also served in the war, and while I get what you mean, he always went on a remembrance walk when he was able to, up to near his death. I think he would want for history to be remembered as much as possible, and something like this would probably worry him.

Matt, this is not an erasure. Nobody is claiming now that Britain has never been involved in wars. Nobody is forbidding discussion of the wars in which Britain has been involved, and nor are they minimising the sacrifices made by servicemen and women in those wars. The Cenotaph is not being covered up. You will still be able to find a documentary about the war on television at any time of the day or night. Mark Francois will still trip over himself trying to be the first to be spotted sporting a poppy each and every year.

It is nothing more than the cancellation of some entertainment events because the organisers have - of their own accord - decided that it would be distasteful to proceed with them at the present time.

There is a difference though between rememberence and educational events (such as museums) and entertainment which I feel these events more fall into.

Quite so.

 

[Vespa]

Noticed none of the organisers seems to have asked the public if they wanted it cancelled or not, it's a very popular event in spite of what's going on round the world, by cancelling the railways will be financially short, virtue signalling doesn't pay the bills.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Noticed none of the organisers seems to have asked the public if they wanted it cancelled or not, it's a very popular event in spite of what's going on round the world, by cancelling the railways will be financially short, virtue signalling doesn't pay the bills.

You mean none of them have asked you personally. Lets be realistic here these events are put on to get a higher footfall of people onto trains but require a significant outlay of money and extra organisation to undertake.

The railways will see this as too great a financial risk and a reputational risk as well, if war weekends are turning people away.

Changing it into a jubilee weekend is a clever move by the GCR.

 

[Vespa]

You mean none of them have asked you personally. Lets be realistic here these events are put on to get a higher footfall of people onto trains but require a significant outlay of money and extra organisation to undertake.

The railways will see this as too great a financial risk and a reputational risk as well, if war weekends are turning people away.

Changing it into a jubilee weekend is a clever move by the GCR.

Not so sure on that as there will be many attractions laying on a Jubilee Weekend event in competition, they can try as you said "significant outlay of money and extra organisation to undertake"

The railway is more on heritage and nostalgia that's their unique selling point, WW2 events ties in with that.

Not so sure about reputational damage, the public are not stupid, they can tell the difference between a WW2 event and an Ukrainian conflict.

 

[MattRat]

Matt, this is not an erasure. Nobody is claiming now that Britain has never been involved in wars. Nobody is forbidding discussion of the wars in which Britain has been involved, and nor are they minimising the sacrifices made by servicemen and women in those wars. The Cenotaph is not being covered up. You will still be able to find a documentary about the war on television at any time of the day or night. Mark Francois will still trip over himself trying to be the first to be spotted sporting a poppy each and every year.

It is nothing more than the cancellation of some entertainment events because the organisers have - of their own accord - decided that it would be distasteful to proceed with them at the present time.

Slippery slope. I'm just being cautious.

 

[43066]

I would have been more pragmatic about it and incorporated an Ukraininan refugee fund stand for the public to make a contribution alongside the WW2 event.

How virtuous of you.

To be fair at least that’s a practical suggestion that would actually do some good. Rather more good, in fact, than cancelling an event for show.

Noticed none of the organisers seems to have asked the public if they wanted it cancelled or not, it's a very popular event in spite of what's going on round the world, by cancelling the railways will be financially short, virtue signalling doesn't pay the bills.

As I alluded to earlier, one can only assume these railways are flush with cash! I find it surprising that charitable organisations can so readily turn away money. Certainly makes you think twice given how much they charge for entry, these charges being justified by high operating costs.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Noticed none of the organisers seems to have asked the public if they wanted it cancelled or not, it's a very popular event in spite of what's going on round the world, by cancelling the railways will be financially short, virtue signalling doesn't pay the bills.

Makes me think - it is hard to do a survey. Worse still how many people actually reply. I can imagine that of 100 people asked, if 10 replied at all then a further 20 or more would complain if the outcome was not to their taste !.

 

[D6968]

To be fair at least that’s a practical suggestion that would actually do some good. Rather more good, in fact, than cancelling an event for show.



As I alluded to earlier, one can only assume these railways are flush with cash! I find it surprising that charitable organisations can so readily turn away money. Certainly makes you think twice given how much they charge for entry, these charges being justified by high operating costs.

What does Assume do?
I don’t think it’s surprising that charitable organisations are turning away money if anything I think they’re being sensible and making sure they’re still eligible for grants from those awarding them.
I’m guessing yourself or several other members who use phrases like ‘woke’ or ‘liberal lefties’ have never worked in marketing?

 

[patrick.hearn3]

The Severn Valley Railway today cancelled their event

Severn Valley Railway cancels Step Back to the 1940s event

The Severn Valley Railway has cancelled its two 1940s-themed weekends later this year, in the light of the conflict taking place in Ukraine.

SVR chairman Mike Ball said:

“Like everyone in the country, we have been horrified and saddened at the atrocities that are taking place in Ukraine as the result of Russia’s invasion. We feel that the wartime elements of our Step Back to the 1940s events would be inappropriate at this time, and have therefore decided we will not hold them.

“The Severn Valley Railway will make arrangements for a future fundraising event in aid of British Red Cross’ Ukraine Crisis Appeal. All ticket holders for the 1940’s event are being encouraged to hold onto their tickets which will be valid for a future date.

“Although we know the news will come as a disappointment to those who were looking forward to what is an extremely popular and enjoyable event under normal circumstances, we hope that everyone will understand the current situation, and that we are doing what we believe is the right thing. Our thoughts are with the people of Ukraine.”

The railway will reopen on 2nd April for the Open House Weekend, before the Spring Steam Gala and Spring Diesel Festival in April and May respectively, will go ahead as planned.

All current ticket holders are encourage to check their email, where our team have already been in touch regarding their booking.

 

[joystick]

Why wasn't the forties events cancelled before ? Gulf war, syria ,Libya etc Ridiculous really .

 

[Calthrop]

Why wasn't the forties events cancelled before ? Gulf war, syria ,Libya etc Ridiculous really .

As the villain of one of S.M. Stirling's alternative-history novel series says at one point: "If you're waiting for humans to become logical and consistent, you're going to have a long, dull wait."

 

[WesternLancer]

Why wasn't the forties events cancelled before ? Gulf war, syria ,Libya etc Ridiculous really .

Not 8th Army / Desert Rat themed?

Though with an 8F it might be do-able in authenticity terms.

(I should add this post is what I believe my grandfather - who served in some - would call 'trench humour')