New automatic ticket gates at King’s Cross

[Lampshade]

Yes but there is an adequate number of gates at Waterloo. As much as it pains me to say it about my favourite station, installing the barriers at Waterloo has been an improvement, there used to be large crowds near the platform entrances at rush hour, the gates have allowed passengers to move through more freely.

However, there are no real 'intercity' journeys from Waterloo, most traffic is regional or suburban. This is the exact opposite to Kings Cross where the vast majority of services are intercity; barriers will be very unwelcome.

 

[Fred26]

It was a good rant. The four staff prevent speedy boarding of IC trains and cause delays by checking tickets before boarding. Something that does not need to be done on trains which first stop is York or Doncaster.

That's hardly the fault of the staff though. They're just doing as they're told.

 

[Failed Unit]

That's hardly the fault of the staff though. They're just doing as they're told.

Which is probably why the are not too pleasent to customers. Because they get abuse all day from people that dont see the point of what the are doing as per rant. I know two wrongs don't make a right but they are not exactly customer friendly.

 

[Fred26]

Yes but there is an adequate number of gates at Waterloo. As much as it pains me to say it about my favourite station, installing the barriers at Waterloo has been an improvement, there used to be large crowds near the platform entrances at rush hour, the gates have allowed passengers to move through more freely.

However, there are no real 'intercity' journeys from Waterloo, most traffic is regional or suburban. This is the exact opposite to Kings Cross where the vast majority of services are intercity; barriers will be very unwelcome.

They might end up being an adequate number of barriers at Kings Cross. Whatever happens though, the true effect of the barriers cannot be properly judged until the completion of the Kings Cross restoration.

Aren't most services from Kings Cross run by FCC?
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Which is probably why the are not too pleasent to customers. Because they get abuse all day from people that dont see the point of what the are doing as per rant. I know two wrongs don't make a right but they are not exactly customer friendly.

Well I know who you mean, but it's obviously not always the same four people. I've only been checked by them once at Kings Cross and that was as staff, so it wouldn't put me in the same boat as you anyway.
You might find it interesting to know this; one of the East Coast RPIs that perform these checks told me that if they have less than four RPIs available, they can't do the check. This is because they can't properly block the platform. (I can't remember whether he said four or five RPIs, but you say four, so I'll go with that).

 

[Failed Unit]

They might end up being an adequate number of barriers at Kings Cross. Whatever happens though, the true effect of the barriers cannot be properly judged until the completion of the Kings Cross restoration.

Aren't most services from Kings Cross run by FCC?

We will see. Yes most services at KX are operated by FCC but these tend to be from the part which has barriers already. I would like to see the design and know how many can take large bags. If east coast think it will make any difference to fare evasion they are wrong. They will not stop someone with an AP for the 1330 travelling on the 1300 between London and Doncaster for example.

 

[Lampshade]

Highly unlikely, Waterloo has a much bigger area behind the platforms for people to disperse, it's almost continuous apart from where the left luggage office is. Platforms 2 and 3 at Kings Cross form an island platform, the capacity of a 225 is 536, if one is arriving just as another has been announced, that's 1072 people trying to pass through the barriers at the end of an island platform, bad planning at best and dangerous at worst.

 

[Failed Unit]

I have only seen the same 4. Never more than 4 which takes a long time to check a few hundred tickets, reservations and not helped by passengers not having the tickets ready. It is rare you are told you need them before the platform is given.

 

[Fred26]

Highly unlikely, Waterloo has a much bigger area behind the platforms for people to disperse, it's almost continuous apart from where the left luggage office is. Platforms 2 and 3 at Kings Cross form an island platform, the capacity of a 225 is 536, if one is arriving just as another has been announced, that's 1072 people trying to pass through the barriers at the end of an island platform, bad planning at best and dangerous at worst.

It may end up being bad planning and you may well end up being correct and I'm not saying you won't be, but I think criticisms like this should be left until it's all completed when we'll be able to see how it'll work.

 

[Failed Unit]

It may end up being bad planning and you may well end up being correct and I'm not saying you won't be, but I think criticisms like this should be left until it's all completed when we'll be able to see how it'll work.

Surely the battle should take place before the money is spent. Look at what happened in York and Sheffield where common sense won. Maybe we can do the same at kings cross! It would be worse if the put the barriers in, they are not fit for purpose then they need removing!

 

[Aictos]

Surely the battle should take place before the money is spent. Look at what happened in York and Sheffield where common sense won. Maybe we can do the same at kings cross! It would be worse if the put the barriers in, they are not fit for purpose then they need removing!

Part of the problem I believe is the 1970s concourse which is too small and unfit for purpose, once the new concourse is finished it will be much much better.

Anyway wasn't the 1970s concourse always meant to be temporary?

 

[Lampshade]

Surely the battle should take place before the money is spent. Look at what happened in York and Sheffield where common sense won. Maybe we can do the same at kings cross! It would be worse if the put the barriers in, they are not fit for purpose then they need removing!

Common sense didn't 'win', City of York Council just wasn't naive enough to fall for NXEC's babblings about 'safety' and stopping 'anti social behaviour', problems that were pretty much non-existant to start with. In fact Newcastle City Council wanted the plans refused for Newcastle station (durr) but they didn't have sufficent grounds to refuse, so in they went despite overwhelming opposition, even English Heritage objected at first. Sheffield is still ongoing and if Nick Clegg has a shred of decency left in him he'll abolish the plans completely.

Unfortunately in the case of Kings Cross, Camden Borough Council already agreed to the gating of the suburban platforms, the precedent has been set so isn't really in a position to object to further gating.

 

[Mojo]

Unfortunately in the case of Kings Cross, Lambeth Borough Council already agreed to the gating of the suburban platforms, the precedent has been set so isn't really in a position to object to further gating.

I think you mean Camden, Kings Cross isn't even in Lambeth, that's the wrong side of the river!

 

[Lampshade]

I think you mean Camden, Kings Cross isn't even in Lambeth, that's the wrong side of the river!

And all of a sudden I look like a pillock

I meant Camden obviously, I had the page for Waterloo up.

 

[RPI]

I cant understand those people on here who say that barriers are a way of REDUCING staff? all barriers have to be manned so shoot me if i'm wrong but if barriers were done away with then jobs will be done away with doh!

 

[Deerfold]

In front of platforms 0-3 there are now the skeletons of 10 gates.

Only three of them are wide.

 

[jon0844]

Are these temporary during the construction, to be moved towards the new entrance when the station work is completed?

The gates by 9-11 have moved about quite a bit, but there seem to be just about enough for three platforms - even if two trains arrive around the same time.

If we extended Oyster, or a new ITSO compliant smartcard system, that would speed things up a lot more as paper tickets are a PITA and most people will have paper tickets if they have travelled to/from beyond the Oyster area.

 

[Aictos]

Are these temporary during the construction, to be moved towards the new entrance when the station work is completed?

The gates by 9-11 have moved about quite a bit, but there seem to be just about enough for three platforms - even if two trains arrive around the same time.

If we extended Oyster, or a new ITSO compliant smartcard system, that would speed things up a lot more as paper tickets are a PITA and most people will have paper tickets if they have travelled to/from beyond the Oyster area.

I'm a firm backer in extending Oyster to Potters Bar but then at the same time have FCC introduce a ITSO compliant smartcard system which can be used at any station served by them, after all the one that FSR is introducing eventually across it's whole network can be used not only for other things such as attractions, hotels, travel etc....

 

[Anvil1984]

I cant understand those people on here who say that barriers are a way of REDUCING staff? all barriers have to be manned so shoot me if i'm wrong but if barriers were done away with then jobs will be done away with doh!

Yeah it also doesnt make on boards ticket checks extinct either, there is still a lot of evasion that can happen and it makes things easier to prove intent to evade because instead of going past the ticket office and getting on and using the "I didnt have time" excuse you catch them with childrens tickets, concessionary fares and if you hold off the ticket check for a station then plenty of over-distances. I speak like its widespread but its the minute minority but its enough.

 

[Failed Unit]

As I said earlier barriers also won't stop AP users getting on the wrong train. Very easy to do now from paddington the only thing stopping you with say a London - Swindon ticket is the on train staff.

I do remember when I was young that all IC trains were checked upon arrival and pre-departure. Never took long but I guess the range of tickets was smaller so the person was just checking the date and time (if blue saver)

 

[bnm]

Having stood for 4 hours in a MK3 vestibule, I can hapilly say I do not want to do it ever again.

What? Not one person got off at an intermediate station giving you first dibs (before those boarding) on their seat?

 

[asylumxl]

What? Not one person got off at an intermediate station giving you first dibs (before those boarding) on their seat?

No. The train was fully booked with OAPs travelling down to deepest, darkest Cornwall, I kid you not. Till this day I still do not know the reason for this mass exodus of octagenerians...

 

[Deerfold]

Yeah it also doesnt make on boards ticket checks extinct either, there is still a lot of evasion that can happen and it makes things easier to prove intent to evade because instead of going past the ticket office and getting on and using the "I didnt have time" excuse you catch them with childrens tickets, concessionary fares and if you hold off the ticket check for a station then plenty of over-distances. I speak like its widespread but its the minute minority but its enough.

It did last night. No checks on EC or Northern (actually there was a check after Peterborough when the guard came through saying "Tickets from Peterborough" but presumably anyone travelling over-distance would just keep quiet).

I have to say the checkers on the platform were very pleasant - I got a thank you (perhaps because I was organised enough to have my ticket in my hand as I approached.

After I'd gone through the check a train was arriving on the adjacent platform - that'll have been fun with people passing the opposite direction through the blockade - fortunately it didn't look too busy.

The barriers are being put in back from the platfroms but not very far back - I wouldn't want to go through a gate too far from the platform I'm heading for and have to squeeze through.

 

[jon0844]

As I said earlier barriers also won't stop AP users getting on the wrong train. Very easy to do now from paddington the only thing stopping you with say a London - Swindon ticket is the on train staff.

I do keep harping on about technology, but if we had smarter tickets that contained the time/seat information for an advance ticket - you could have the gate show up the information to remind people of the train they're supposed to take. If it's too early (and I accept there's a bit more logic required from the gates), such that your train isn't there/hasn't yet been announced, it can reject or flag up 'seek assistance'.

Better yet, with the idea of a smartcard system that can confirm when you've boarded your train and taken your seat (and so anyone that doesn't take their seat and scan their card against a NFC reader on each seat back will make the seat available to others, on the traffic light system mentioned elsewhere) would also be able to warn you that you're on the wrong train.

In fact, if you had on board ticket validation with smartcards then you could operate like some railways do abroad. Not that I think we could all be trusted, but you could have a PAYG system that relies on honesty, backed up with HEFTY fines if caught. Sweden seems pretty open (you only scan/swipe a ticket to enter a station, not leave) but they have a fine of around £120 (current rates) if you're caught without a ticket or pass.

But, for the time being, the gates aren't really there to deal with people using advance tickets and boarding the wrong train. Given we don't expect any leniency for those who leave railcards at home, you could argue that getting the wrong train is 100% the fault of the passenger who would, or should, have had everything clearly pointed out to them at the point of sale. Mind you, given I nearly boarded the wrong train at York (as the previous EC service was running almost exactly 30 minutes late, so turned up when our booked train should have), I suppose I should accept reasons why people can make mistakes!

 

[Capybara]

Sounds like another kick in the wotsits for for pay-on-the-day passengers. On more than one occasion I have bought my ticket at King's Cross then gone on the platform to find the train packed already, either because I was taking the chance on an earlier train than expected, or because I had arrived later than intended. The solution was simply to catch a later train, which meant leaving the platform. Presumably the barriers will mean that you have to catch the particular train once you have committed to it by going through the barrier and too bad if that means an uncomfortable journey?

 

[jon0844]

You can simply ask staff to let you out again - and show your ticket to them. Then do the same if you go back before a certain time has elapsed (which is to stop people passing tickets back, which is what the gate might think has been done if you use the same ticket again within 15-30 minutes).

 

[RPI]

No. The train was fully booked with OAPs travelling down to deepest, darkest Cornwall, I kid you not. Till this day I still do not know the reason for this mass exodus of octagenerians...

Probably when that disaster called "club 55" was on! oh what a good idea, we'll sell tickets to oldies for peanuts to go on trains that are already packed!

 

[hjp766]

Just be thankful that stations don't have the same brain-diminishing effects on the travelling public as the airports.

But the TOC have it right in one respect... Staff don't get more screening than the passengers. in my line of work staff get pulled at there separate scanners more often for random searches as "it counts for the quota but we don't normally have to fill out the paperwork for finding something" or words to that effect when I asked. Not to mention when at LGW as a passenger you only took your shoes off if they gave you a placard, and the crew were referring to the same thing as a "Golden Ticket" as on the rare occasion you got one (about 1 in 10) you were allowed to keep your shoes on...

Security is mismanaged if it is purely about achieving targets at minimum cost and maximum profit so it looks for shortcuts and not the best solution.

HJ

(Normally at the pointy end of an A320)

 

[rmt-driver]

According to FCC website, ALL platforms at Kings X will be gated once the refurb project is complete:

"Ticket gates at other London King’s Cross Platforms
By the time the transformation of London King’s Cross is complete in 2013, all platforms at the station will be gated."
http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/about-us/major-programmes-and-developments/spotlight-on-stations/kings-cross-redevelopment/

 

[swt_passenger]

According to FCC website, ALL platforms at Kings X will be gated once the refurb project is complete:

"Ticket gates at other London King’s Cross Platforms
By the time the transformation of London King’s Cross is complete in 2013, all platforms at the station will be gated."

The full barrier line has always been shown in the planning drawings, and described in the various documents dealing with passenger flows.

There are about 45 individual barriers shown at the front of the station, mainly for exit, and about 25 between the new concourse and the main shed, just around the corner from the station front. There are also a couple of small barrier lines, 5 from the catering mezzanine towards the footbridge, and 6 from the north end of the new concourse midway along the current P8. The suburban barrier line to the far north of the concourse is moved away from the buffer stops and has about 20 gates shown.

These numbers are indicative only, as the drawings show manual staff operated wide gates, whereas recent NR installations at major stations provide passenger operated automatic wide barriers. But they total around 100 barriers, which when you compare Kings Cross passenger numbers with places like Waterloo, with around 200 bariers altogether, should be adequate for the numbers involved.

 

[Aictos]

The full barrier line has always been shown in the planning drawings, and described in the various documents dealing with passenger flows.

There are about 45 individual barriers shown at the front of the station, mainly for exit, and about 25 between the new concourse and the main shed, just around the corner from the station front. There are also a couple of small barrier lines, 5 from the catering mezzanine towards the footbridge, and 6 from the north end of the new concourse midway along the current P8. The suburban barrier line to the far north of the concourse is moved away from the buffer stops and has about 20 gates shown.

These numbers are indicative only, as the drawings show manual staff operated wide gates, whereas recent NR installations at major stations provide passenger operated automatic wide barriers. But they total around 100 barriers, which when you compare Kings Cross passenger numbers with places like Waterloo, with around 200 bariers altogether, should be adequate for the numbers involved.

Which ought to put paid to the views that Kings Cross shouldn't have them,