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This argument that trains are Carryinger just fresh air is untrue, most tocs acknowledge service usage is around 70-80% of pre pandemic numbers.
Over holiday periods the numbers are even higher, it's very easy to bash unions but the profits shown by TPEs parent company reflect the true situation.
You completely misread my post. During the height of the pandemic we were. As low as 5-10%. Without government subsidy the rail network would've collapsed and during that time nobody was furloughed.
perception vs reality, I get that. The trouble is perception often speaks louder than the truth and creates prejudgements and stereotypes in the process.
However I am a forward thinking and positive guy. If you are aware of who I am you will no doubt know this. As someone who wants to actively engage and resolve for the greater good of the staff and the company sadly there has been no attempt to communicate, no dialogue, no collaboration or anything from management despite what has been stated in todays email from the comms team. From the front line it indeed looks like management don’t care. That is why many members of staff are at their lowest they have ever been morale wise and are sipped off and may explain why so many voted for industrial action. I don’t want to be in this position as much as you, I would far rather take the common sense approach but until someone offers an olive branch and starts that dialogue then we remain in this Mexican stand-off position.
You speak of perception v reality, but using the Northern trial (and it was just a trial) on percentage of ticketing is surely misleading? Now we're not even running trains on bank holiday weekends, which for me, is a step too far, especially as leisure is driving the recovery. Sunday's are different for reasons discussed before.
I don't see those in charge of the operator being able to do much because they're now at the behest of the DfT either and they're not exactly going to come out publicly and say that are they?
But they could have at least had that conversation with the staff, and the staff side representatives. Avoid dispute via discussion rather than end up in dispute by avoiding the discussion…
This argument that trains are Carryinger just fresh air is untrue, most tocs acknowledge service usage is around 70-80% of pre pandemic numbers.
Over holiday periods the numbers are even higher, it's very easy to bash unions but the profits shown by TPEs parent company reflect the true situation.
Most TOCs operated at relatively small profits pre-pandemic and although ridership is indeed 70%ish of pre-pandemic levels the issues is that the vital Anytime and Season ticket levels that make the difference between profit and loss is very volatile.
The DfT / Treasury have put billions into the railways over the past two years and suspect that the treasury will now be looking for savings.
Parent company accounts might look healthy but perhaps it should be remembered that First group don't just run trains in the UK
Most TOCs operated at relatively small profits pre-pandemic and although ridership is indeed 70%ish of pre-pandemic levels the issues is that the vital Anytime and Season ticket levels that make the difference between profit and loss is very volatile.
I can’t speak for anytime tickets but pre-pandemic less then 15% of the ticket revenue came from season tickets with the bulk of income (70%) for TPE coming from leisure travel - which demonstrates why we are seeing above average numbers of passengers and income compared to other parts of the UK.
Season tickets are not the cash cow that people assume they are for all operators.
A large number of commuters in the core use WY metro cards which most of the income does not even go directly to TPE, even if it’s the only train they ever use with their pass. Likewise within Merseyside, most passengers will travel with a trio or train pass than a season ticket with the cash divided up between all operators (including bus operators with the trio)
This argument that trains are Carryinger just fresh air is untrue, most tocs acknowledge service usage is around 70-80% of pre pandemic numbers.
Over holiday periods the numbers are even higher, it's very easy to bash unions but the profits shown by TPEs parent company reflect the true situation.
The post to which you reply was in the past tense of course if you read correctly. Yes, many TOCs are no longer carrying air, but certainly the bread and butter of the railway's finances (commuters in London & SE and one-off business fares) have not bounced back to pre-pandemic numbers, probably never will (or a decade at least with natural population growth), and leisure travellers don't make up the same income. It may in time, but there are still gaps. Anyway, pre-pandemic most TOCs were making tiny profit margins (2-3%) if at all.
It's not TPE's fault if the government mitigates it with a £325mn subsidy which may have been more than required. The fact remains that currently, many TOCs require a great detail of scrutiny and sign off on big pay (and other financial) decisions. This unfortunately impacts all salaries too, eve if the theoretically the money was there from the excess subsidy.
The post to which you reply was in the past tense of course if you read correctly. Yes, many TOCs are no longer carrying air, but certainly the bread and butter of the railway's finances (commuters in London & SE and one-off business fares) have not bounced back to pre-pandemic numbers, probably never will (or a decade at least with natural population growth), and leisure travellers don't make up the same income. It may in time, but there are still gaps. Anyway, pre-pandemic most TOCs were making tiny profit margins (2-3%) if at all.
It's not TPE's fault if the government mitigates it with a £325mn subsidy which may have been more than required. The fact remains that currently, many TOCs require a great detail of scrutiny and sign off on big pay (and other financial) decisions. This unfortunately impacts all salaries too, eve if the theoretically the money was there from the excess subsidy.
The commuters argument is more relevant to the like of TFL rather than TPE though, leisure travel has certainly increased a great deal this year.
Some Tocs had bus strengthening at busy stations during holidays,.
If the railways is all doom and gloom as many keep saying why is there such huge recruitment drives by so many tocs ?
The commuters argument is more relevant to the like of TFL rather than TPE though, leisure travel has certainly increased a great deal this year.
Some Tocs had bus strengthening at busy stations during holidays,.
If the railways is all doom and gloom as many keep saying why is there such huge recruitment drives by so many tocs ?
It still doesn't make up for it though. You forgot how busy trains used to be in the peak, even for TOCs like TPE.
Many TOCs had gaps before Covid, and some drivers took Covid had a good opportunity to retire.
In general terms the core argument that RMT Guards should get the same overtime / rest day working enhancements, in percentage terms, as Aslef Drivers I totally agree with.
When this dispute started Aslef Drivers were getting a MINIMUM guaranteed payment of 10 hours at Time + 50% for each rest day worked, even if the shift was only 5 or 6 hours long. So for say an 8 hour shift they were getting 15 hours pay.
RMT Guards however were getting a Minimum payment of 5 hours at Time + 20% for Mon to Sat rest day working and Time + 25% for Sunday working. For a 8 hour Sunday shift Guards were getting 10 hours pay, Mon to Sat it was just over 9.5 hours pay.
So you can see the disparity. Even if you forget about the different rates of pay , why should different Safety Critical staff working on the same train get different uplifts for working overtime? If they can afford to pay Drivers 15 hours pay for 8 hours work, then they can afford to pay Guards 15 hours pay for 8 hours work.
Of course it is unfortunate as Aslef have ended their rest day working agreement and the company seems uninterested in a new one. So the argument that the Guards want the same as Drivers doesn't currently hold - as the drivers get diddly squat as they don't work overtime and ended their previous agreement.
Whilst I support this argument of parity amongst grades, the timing I don't think is sensible. I think now is certainly not the right time to be having strikes about such things.
And, despite all the bluster from the union, they must know the current industry financial and contractual arrangements and know that TPE management are unable to offer anything, even if they wanted to. The most any negotiations could be would be a meeting where TPE management said "The DfT controls the budgets and has reduced our budget by 10% from the 1st April. We are not authorised to spend any additional money without their say so, and they say we have to save money, not spend money, therefore there is nothing we can negotiate on". The meeting would last about 5 minutes.
The other side of the dispute, that about scanning tickets, is quite frankly a complete load of bo**ocks.
The harmonised terms and conditions for TPE Conductors say:
6.3 New Technology Conductors will train and use all new and future technology systems introduced from time to time to assist the role, following consultation at Company Council in accordance with Procedure Agreement 1.
This says that in 2011 TPE Conductors agreed to use all new technology. I can't see how they can currently refuse to do so now, especially considering that they have been scanning tickets for years.
no they don’t. Network Usage has never been above 70% of Pre pandemic numbers since March 2020 on a week to week basis, and is currently much nearer 60. There might be a few TOCs at 70-80% of Pre pandemic numbers, and one or to higher, but most are nowhere near.
It still doesn't make up for it though. You forgot how busy trains used to be in the peak, even for TOCs like TPE.
Many TOCs had gaps before Covid, and some drivers took Covid had a good opportunity to retire.
Let's see how busy trains from May TT onwards, more and more people are returning to work now due to the covid restrictions being lifted. The price of petrol / Diesel is rising and many cities are starting congestion charging drivers.
Train patronage will rise & all of the doom and gloom of the railways is quite baffling. There's multiple fleets of trains coming into service and theres extra services on routes at many tocs, there's huge amounts of training required and tocs having these battles with unions won't help matters.
At the depot I work at we only had 2 retire but lost 5 to better paying tocs plus 3 drivers passed away. our recruitment drive more about the extra work on it way in the near future.
no they don’t. Network Usage has never been above 70% of Pre pandemic numbers since March 2020 on a week to week basis, and is currently much nearer 60. There might be a few TOCs at 70-80% of Pre pandemic numbers, and one or to higher, but most are nowhere near.
In general terms the core argument that RMT Guards should get the same overtime / rest day working enhancements, in percentage terms, as Aslef Drivers I totally agree with.
When this dispute started Aslef Drivers were getting a MINIMUM guaranteed payment of 10 hours at Time + 50% for each rest day worked, even if the shift was only 5 or 6 hours long. So for say an 8 hour shift they were getting 15 hours pay.
RMT Guards however were getting a Minimum payment of 5 hours at Time + 20% for Mon to Sat rest day working and Time + 25% for Sunday working. For a 8 hour Sunday shift Guards were getting 10 hours pay, Mon to Sat it was just over 9.5 hours pay.
So you can see the disparity. Even if you forget about the different rates of pay , why should different Safety Critical staff working on the same train get different uplifts for working overtime? If they can afford to pay Drivers 15 hours pay for 8 hours work, then they can afford to pay Guards 15 hours pay for 8 hours work.
Of course it is unfortunate as Aslef have ended their rest day working agreement and the company seems uninterested in a new one. So the argument that the Guards want the same as Drivers doesn't currently hold - as the drivers get diddly squat as they don't work overtime and ended their previous agreement.
To be honest it is utterly shocking that anyone in management that signed up for drivers to be paid for 10 hours + 50% for RDW. I have heard of drivers that have done a couple of hours and then getting paid and enormous amount. Outrageous. Yes, get an enhanced rate for overtime but this is over the top and unsustainable.
There should of course by no RDW except in exceptional circumstances and I suspect that is the way forward now.
As for the guards getting party then if the drivers aren't getting it any more then nor should they.
As for getting a technology payments for checking tickets then that's taking the p**s.
When this dispute started Aslef Drivers were getting a MINIMUM guaranteed payment of 10 hours at Time + 50% for each rest day worked, even if the shift was only 5 or 6 hours long. So for say an 8 hour shift they were getting 15 hours pay
To be honest it is utterly shocking that anyone in management that signed up for drivers to be paid for 10 hours + 50% for RDW. I have heard of drivers that have done a couple of hours and then getting paid and enormous amount. Outrageous. Yes, get an enhanced rate for overtime but this is over the top and unsustainable.
Outrageous why? If it’s cheaper than cancelling trains, and cheaper than employing enough drivers to work the trains without overtime, then it probably makes commercial sense.
Except that it won’t be if it ends up being more expensive to operate that way, rather than the current status quo, of employing insufficient staff and relying on overtime.
Again, why are you so quick to dictate what other staff should be getting paid?
It’s just ironic that you clearly resent guards and especially drivers for their pay, and attack them on here, while doing a far more cruisy back office job in “the railway bubble” yourself.
Outrageous why? If it’s cheaper than cancelling trains, and cheaper than employing enough drivers to work the trains without overtime, then it probably makes commercial sense.
Except that it won’t be if it ends up being more expensive to operate that way, rather than the current status quo, of employing insufficient staff and relying on overtime.
Again, why are you so quick to dictate what other staff should be getting paid?
It’s just ironic that you clearly resent guards and especially drivers for their pay, and attack them on here, while doing a far more cruisy back office job in “the railway bubble” yourself.
Sounds like someone failed their drivers assessments…..
If the company has signed agreements then they should be honoured until such a time the agreement expires or a new agreement supersedes it.
Likewise if there is a signed agreement for new tech to be consulted into service via local union and management then also so be it.
Until recently I was a 20 year paid up member of the RMT, I left because when i can see them dragging me into a dispute which I don’t think is a) justified, and b) winnable.
As have many of us in operational grades. I’m not sure working as a teacher qualifies you to comment on the big bad scary world we are all blissfully unaware of.
Ever worked in the private sector? FYI I spent ten years working in the city before I joined the railway so you can spare me the “commercial realities” lecture.
40k??? For sitting round in a comfy office pressing buttons on a computer with no real responsibilities and on cushy hours??
Disgusting, no wonder the railway is on its knees.....
Pure greed
Not suggesting anyone should be foregoing anything, but going straight for the ultimate sanction is how we get into war situations from which everyone tends to lose, sooner or later.
Ah, OK. I was just struggling to see what bearing Ukraine had on the discussion. Initially it looked as though you were saying that all union disputes should be curtailed due to the international situation.
As someone who has been involved with industrial disputes you will know that, in spite of the swivel-eyed, window licking, tanks-on-the-lawn lunacy that the RMT occasionally dabbles in, no union can simply go straight for the ultimate sanction. There is the "failure to agree" (FTA) process to follow first which must be exhausted before a single ballot paper is drawn up, and for this there needs to be a genuine grievance and a failure to reach a negotiated solution.
TfL (and other TOCs, covering Outer London) is actually one of the best for loadings, especially from outer London as many people do not own cars, a higher % are shift workers and it is the easiest way to travel.
40k??? For sitting round in a comfy office pressing buttons on a computer with no real responsibilities and on cushy hours??
Disgusting, no wonder the railway is on its knees.....
Pure greed
That's one reason I can't understand the love for 158s by some people, driving them isn't a nice experience. You freeze in the winter and cook alive in the summer, you can't hear yourself think with the rattly windows and wind noise. If it rains you get a private swimming pool....
My job today is book on 3am so wake up at 1.45am then 1hr in a taxi to start thr service and then drive to my destination and have a 4min turnaround before another 1hr 30mins to the next destination. Then 3hrs into my job my one break of 45mins before another 4hrs in a cab. Some posters think traincrew have ut cushy 24/7.... we have jobs were it's book on 1hr into the job its your main rest break and others in the last hr of a 9hr job it's your mrb !
You can tell the failed train crew on here by the comments
Just to re iterate the point of this thread. TPE guards have withdrawn their labour because they are not happy with the new T and C's being offered. They are perfectly entitled to do that. In all fairness, they should be getting the same overtime enhancements that drivers get. It's worth noting that over the years, ASLEF have negotiated terms which now mean that there are numbers of drivers earning £100k salaries. RMT needs to be a little more canny in getting better terms for guards.......but in the meantime, the reality is that industrial actions are on the increase. No amount of posting opinions on here is actually going to change that.
But they can probably pay you less and erode your Ts and Cs. Why should you be paid £40k, isn’t that more than nurses get? Outrageous etc.
As have many of us in operational grades. I’m not sure working as a teacher qualifies you to comment on the big bad scary world we are all blissfully unaware of.
Ever worked in the private sector? FYI I spent ten years working in the city before I joined the railway so you can spare me the “commercial realities” lecture.
I think most train planners would accept that there will be new technology that would make their jobs easier and in time reduce the need for so many planners. Currently the technology is not there yet and the one that has been tried tends to be “too clever for its own good” hence the need for human interaction.
As for teaching you’d rightly be up in arms if you knew what teachers had to put up with on a daily basis for £35k. And don’t bring holidays into it because as a train planner I with normal holidays I have more free time than I had as a teacher.
My daughter works in the private sector at Sainsbury’s, extra time is paid at the going rate including additional days. They get plenty of volunteers for overtime because the wages are so low.
Drivers are on a pretty good basic wage (in most cases £50k plus) but still want massive enhancements for working their rest days. How can it be reasonable that a driver can be called in to do 3 hours work and get paid 17.5 hours minimum? No wonder the DfT won’t sign off new agreements like that! I know of one driver that actually drove a train for 20 mins on his Rest Day but still got the full rate!
I’d agree that TOCs need to take on more staff to avoid the need for RDW and they should be implementing this.
As for me I’m quite happy with my lot and I’ll point out that many train planners are on no where near £40k. NHS staff are on appalling wages for the work they do (harder work than train drivers).
As for being envious, not really I couldn’t be a train driver as I could stand the weight of the chips on my shoulders!
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
And as I predicted the Tories are going to try and implement a minimum service level even during industrial action:
MPs said tough new laws are needed to smash the power of militant unions for transport workers and prevent them from 'holding the country to ransom' as another London Tube strike gets underway.
To be honest it is utterly shocking that anyone in management that signed up for drivers to be paid for 10 hours + 50% for RDW. I have heard of drivers that have done a couple of hours and then getting paid and enormous amount. Outrageous. Yes, get an enhanced rate for overtime but this is over the top and unsustainable.
There should of course by no RDW except in exceptional circumstances and I suspect that is the way forward now.
As for the guards getting party then if the drivers aren't getting it any more then nor should they.
As for getting a technology payments for checking tickets then that's taking the p**s.
To be fair some things can be a bit different to what they seem.
Our rest day work agreement is minimum 9 hrs 15 minutes for hours worked, the maximum day is 10 hours so anything above that is overtime.
5 years ago we were coming in to do 3 hours work for 9 hrs 15 pay regularly because they were so short of crews and money was less of an object vs cost of cancelling a service.
Nowadays except in short notice circumstances like a guard having an operational incident or going sick part way through a shift resources are banned from offering split up shifts as rest day work so whilst we are still short of crews you generally only get a full day's work overtime and given it takes up a full day off, we have the basic principle of a rest day lost to overtime = a full day's pay as it would with any balanced hours roster.
Consequently you might still get 9 hours 15 for 5 hours work - but only if you happen to be covering a full diagram that is 5 hours anyway.
This seems a perfectly fair way of doing it to me.
As a train driver I haven't a single crispy bit on my shoulder let alone a chip. I've done various jobs on the railway from box boy to signalman & roster clerk to planning & boooking office. I wouldn't want to do anything else after doing this for almost 24 years however. We get treated excellently & apart from some shifts I'm more than happy with my lot. Infact many days it's a joy to come to work especially when I've got a decent trainee or doing test trains like this week. No complaints here.
I think most train planners would accept that there will be new technology that would make their jobs easier and in time reduce the need for so many planners. Currently the technology is not there yet and the one that has been tried tends to be “too clever for its own good” hence the need for human interaction.
As for teaching you’d rightly be up in arms if you knew what teachers had to put up with on a daily basis for £35k. And don’t bring holidays into it because as a train planner I with normal holidays I have more free time than I had as a teacher.
My daughter works in the private sector at Sainsbury’s, extra time is paid at the going rate including additional days. They get plenty of volunteers for overtime because the wages are so low.
Drivers are on a pretty good basic wage (in most cases £50k plus) but still want massive enhancements for working their rest days. How can it be reasonable that a driver can be called in to do 3 hours work and get paid 17.5 hours minimum? No wonder the DfT won’t sign off new agreements like that! I know of one driver that actually drove a train for 20 mins on his Rest Day but still got the full rate!
I’d agree that TOCs need to take on more staff to avoid the need for RDW and they should be implementing this.
As for me I’m quite happy with my lot and I’ll point out that many train planners are on no where near £40k. NHS staff are on appalling wages for the work they do (harder work than train drivers).
As for being envious, not really I couldn’t be a train driver as I could stand the weight of the chips on my shoulders!
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
And as I predicted the Tories are going to try and implement a minimum service level even during industrial action:
MPs said tough new laws are needed to smash the power of militant unions for transport workers and prevent them from 'holding the country to ransom' as another London Tube strike gets underway.
Well what toc pays drivers a minimum of 17.5hrs on a RDW ?
Can you list the enhancements you always mention ?
What toc did the driver get a 20min RDW ?
you throw out all of these comments but never back up the facts, can you please quote the facts to these quotes please
Oh the Roster Clerks which is similar to a train planner at some Tocs earn £50k, you need to look at these positions. It will help with the chip on your shoulder....
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