New automatic ticket gates at King’s Cross

[island]

Take other countries where people have pride and respect and don't need police everywhere. Japan is incredibly clean and crime is low (not non-existent, but low) and that is very much down to a difference in culture.

But despite that, just about every Japanese station with any amount of passenger flow is gated! And there's a second set of gates to pass through to/from the limited express/shinkansen platforms, into which you must put your supplement ticket.
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The number of times I've used East Coast and someone's boarded the train not checking their ticket and just boarding the first train that comes along even when staff have told them not to board the train as they will be charged a brand new ticket regardless if they already had a ticket if the ticket they hold is invalid for the service they are on.

I am of course referring to Advance Tickets and TOC only tickets such as FCC/Grand Central/Hull Trains only which are not valid on East Coast services, not forgetting the various restrictions as well....

Last I checked tickets that are invalid only due to a routing restriction are liable only to be excessed on board, not a new ticket sold or PF. Obviously advance tickets don't come under this, but TOC-specific tickets do, no?
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Is it wrong to check passports at airports because most people are carrying perfectly valid ones? When you're stopped by immigration or customs, do you feel criminalised? Perhaps, but that's life.

I see no problem with asking to see a railcard for discounted tickets (and that would include me being stopped every now and then to check my season ticket matches my photocard - I've never had it checked in eight years!), but perhaps it should be made clearer that checks are in operation to stop people trying to use the gates and being confused?

I suspect if there was a big sandwich board up saying "16-25 railcard users please go this way and have your railcard and photocard out" then our enterprising people using railcard discounts illegitimately will secrete themselves half a mile down the platform until the RPIs have gone on their tea break, or what-not.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure that simply disrupting fare evaders, even if not catching them, perhaps by forcing them to wait ages to sneak on to a train, or out of a station, is arguably quite effective at making them reconsider whether it's worth it the next time around. This is why they should do more station 'stings' and move them around so nobody knows when the next one will be.

Plus, at protected stations, do the RPIs all go on a tea break at the same time? Maybe the smaller ones, but if the RPI has just had his tea break and is now going to work another 3-4 hours before the next, who is going to sit on a platform and wait patiently?

 

[Matt Taylor]

Where on the network are railcard tickets rejected? I've never experienced it on my travels. If Kings Cross barriers operate the same as other East Coast barriers, then they'll accept all tickets.

Barriers are programmed locally according to local circumstances and needs, it can take only a few seconds to reconfigure the settings to reject certain destinations/ticket types/discounts etc. I know that there is a large number of people on this forum who think that ticket checking is best done manually rather than by ATG but having supervised gates of ATGs and having done manual checks I can say with experience that gates are a far more effective tool when it comes to checking tickets.

 

[Lampshade]

Gates are just wrong in my opinion. They are simply a means for lazy TOC's to do away with as many staff as possible while screwing as much as possible out of passengers.

Take Darlington as an example. NX put gates in. The whole ambience of the station has been ruined. I wrote to them and asked why. I was told it was for my safety and convenience. I wrote back and pointed out that it was neither safe nor convenient for the passenger.

Unsafe because everyone is funnelled into a narrow entrance point leading to a great deal of congestion on both sides of the barriers, giving Mr Terrorost a nice captive target. Inconvenient because everyone is forced to queue, is delayed while some people can’t operate the barriers, casing frustration, anger and the missing of your train. (If you don’t turn up early enough) also think they will put off the casual traveller. It is not very welcoming to be met by the equivalent of a prison gate and to be treated as a criminal because you are unsure what you are supposed to do to access the train you want to travel on.

Furthermore it is simply a means to allow the train companies to govern who visits OUR stations. I used to live behind the station and the closest paper shop was the WH Smith on the station. I used to like my walk down to get a paper. This isn’t possible now as you have to ask the "Operative" for permission to enter the station. If he/she is in a mood they will just say no.

My partner has had surgery on her leg and cant walk too well at present. She can’t carry her case because it will over load her and she might fall. As a caring person I would like to help her on to the train and make sure she is ok. I can’t now because I have to ask the "operative" for his permission to asset my partner. Some say yes, some say no. often they have then refused to assist her because you have to book "travel assistance" in advance. That is wrong, no matter the reason.

In fairness when you explain the position most staff are really good and very helpful and kind, some are not. However you should have to feel like a criminal because you want to access a station.

I have always bought a valid ticket and never have an issue with a guard/RPI/staff member checking my ticket. I want them to check my ticket and catch those not paying their way. However I want a person to do that, not a machine.

Why can’t enough staff be provided to check tickets on trains and deal with people on the wrong train/wrong ticket type? On an IC train say three ticket checking staff per journey, break the train into 2/3 carriage chunks and check tickets after every station. I am sure this used to happen!

I only wish the TOC's would tell the truth about barriers - they are there to maximise profit. That is all; anything else is just a cover.

Seconded 100%

I wouldn't go so far as to call them a 'prison gate' but I certainly see them as a metaphor for "Welcome to (for example) Darlington, now prove you paid for your journey".

 

[jon0844]

I do accept gates aren't perfect, but do think some people are getting a little melodramatic at times (sure, we all do it!). I mean, we'll not get rid of security at airports because it's unfair to treat us all as potential terrorists.

Nobody really thinks that everyone is a fare evader (except perhaps the worst RPIs) but plenty are, and technology can filter out some of them effectively - and serve as a deterrent/warning to others.

They aren't perfect, sure, and I bet the gates are set to open so slowly that it will be easy to double up (or triple up) as you can throughout the station. The ticket readers will mess up and there's the problem about being able to buy tickets onboard. However, I am still more in favour of them than not.

In fact, I'm not sure I'd prefer hoards of sub-contracted security goons, like those at Paddington, who harassed my wife with her super off peak Travelcard that he insisted was out of date on the 27th December (the ticket said 27 DMR 10) and then demanded to know where she was going! Asking where you've come from might be a genuine question, but where you are going (when leaving the station?)?? Mind you, I suppose there's an issue in that a FCC super off peak Travelcard doesn't work many gates in London. I hope the gates at King's Cross will accept valid tickets!

 

[142094]

I've always wondered what it was like back in the days of steam when the tickets were checked by actual people - probably a more friendly way and less fare evasion than these days. Saying that I did use the ones at Leeds which were checked manually but wasn't the same. However, going by some of the people G4S employ at various Manchester stations I'd rather try my luck with the automatic gates.

 

[jon0844]

Does anyone know who will man the gatelines at King's Cross. It's FCC for 9-11, but will it also be FCC staff, with some EC staff, or a private company (G4S) to operate them all when the whole station is gated?

I do fear we'll be hearing many horror stories if the gates are managed by a private firm. It's not the gates you'll need to worry about, but the staff that will see a ticket not opening the gate and think they've just found Osama Bin Laden.

 

[Aictos]

Last I checked tickets that are invalid only due to a routing restriction are liable only to be excessed on board, not a new ticket sold or PF. Obviously advance tickets don't come under this, but TOC-specific tickets do, no?

I can assure you I do quite a lot of travelling with East Coast and the guard always without fail does announce what tickets are valid on the service in question and does advise that Hull Trains Only, Grand Central Only and FCC Only tickets are not only invalid for East Coast services but also state a full price ticket will have to be brought that aside they always advise where they are on the in question and that if any one intending to travel has a ticket query to see them before departure.

Now as to manning the gatelines at Kings Cross, I suspect it will be manned by East Coast staff in the main shed with FCC manning the suburban shed.

 

[jopsuk]

It's a private firm that do the Cambridge gates- the staff there seem to cope with rejected tickets politely and usually swiftly.

 

[transportphoto]

It's a private firm that do the Cambridge gates- the staff there seem to cope with rejected tickets politely and usually swiftly.

I second that - it is the same firm that are employed at Norwich & Ipswich too (NX Contractor) can't remember the company's name! They are very polite!

 

[Aictos]

I second that - it is the same firm that are employed at Norwich & Ipswich too (NX Contractor) can't remember the company's name! They are very polite!

Agreed, never have a problem at Cambridge although I do wonder when did NX contracted out the contract?

 

[island]

I can assure you I do quite a lot of travelling with East Coast and the guard always without fail does announce what tickets are valid on the service in question and does advise that Hull Trains Only, Grand Central Only and FCC Only tickets are not only invalid for East Coast services but also state a full price ticket will have to be brought that aside they always advise where they are on the in question and that if any one intending to travel has a ticket query to see them before departure.

Well, I'm not talking about what the EC guards think are the rules; I'm talking about condition 13 of the NRCC.

 

[Anvil1984]

TOC specific tickets are refered to in condition 10 which states that you cannot excess a TOC specific ticket which is different to a route specific ticket. So basically the know the rules and are correct

 

[island]

I stand corrected. Well, I sit corrected. Because it's uncomfortable to stand at a computer. But you know what I mean.

 

[WestCoast]

G4S barely look at the tickets on the bridges at Preston and Manchester Piccadilly in my experience.

TOC specific tickets are refered to in condition 10 which states that you cannot excess a TOC specific ticket which is different to a route specific ticket. So basically the know the rules and are correct

Yes I believe you have to buy a new ticket, I have heard this announced on LM services.

 

[Anvil1984]

You could show anything to some manned barriers and get through. The G4S ones at Manchester Piccadilly can be easily avoided especially when they attempt to barrier one of the bay platforms.Man Vic G4S staff get easily distracted and can be avoided again esp on platforms 1 and 2.Men in booths like Liverpool and the old Leeds ones can just be ran past unless there is a BTP presence.
I also don't get the eyesore argument, they are better looking than the booths from the 80s at Man Pic and Leeds, shame I can't upload pics on this thing

 

[Deerfold]

You could show anything to some manned barriers and get through. The G4S ones at Manchester Piccadilly can be easily avoided especially when they attempt to barrier one of the bay platforms.Man Vic G4S staff get easily distracted and can be avoided again esp on platforms 1 and 2.Men in booths like Liverpool and the old Leeds ones can just be ran past unless there is a BTP presence.
I also don't get the eyesore argument, they are better looking than the booths from the 80s at Man Pic and Leeds, shame I can't upload pics on this thing

The gates at Leeds are a pain in the neck, contributing to congestion and making it hard to transfer between platform 8 and 1-6 (or vice versa) when it's busy. And you can get through them with just about anything in your hand.

The ones at Bradford Interchange are a pain too as I usually have a day rover when I passs through there.

I'm dreading the chaos to come at Kings X.

 

[Anvil1984]

Main problem is passengers who despite hearing the announcement on the trains to have tickets ready for the barrier and see the signs for the barrier don't get them out until the last possible oppotunity.
Whilst I agree that the barriers at Bradford Int and can be a nuisance they can (when the are working) be a good help to us crews who pass through, there was a lot of evasion between Halifax and Bradford (usually leaving Bradford towards Halifax) because passengers know the worst that can usually happen between those points is that they can be thrown off at the stop they want to be off at anyway. I just wish they worked more

 

[Greenback]

Indeed. People stop right in fron tof the barrier while they are fumbling in their pockets or bags for tickets when they should step aside if they haven't got the tickets ready in advance!

A splendid case occurred in Paddington on Monday, when I was blocked off from four gates by several member sof the same group, all seemingly unable to locate their travel documents in amongst what seemed to be three pieces of luggage per person!

 

[Fred26]

I don't see why they'd cause 'chaos' at Kings Cross - barriers do not cause chaos at either Liverpool Street or Waterloo, both of which are busier stations. If the barriers are placed well, for the long term redevelopment, then I can't see them causing problems.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't see why they'd cause 'chaos' at Kings Cross - barriers do not cause chaos at either Liverpool Street or Waterloo, both of which are busier stations. If the barriers are placed well, for the long term redevelopment, then I can't see them causing problems.

Things may improve but when you have about 400 people trying to catch a train which was only announced 5 minutes before departure by 4 goons it does currently cause chaos and results in late departures. I know announcing the platform earlier will help but they will need lots of gates capable of taking large bags to reverse the problems currently.

 

[jon0844]

When King's Cross is finished they MUST start to announce services earlier, not just because of issues with the gates but also because some people do struggle to get about as easily as others; and when you're standing in the suburban shed waiting for a FCC train that is then allocated to platform 0 or 1, it's a long walk.

Luckily the finished station will make it easier to get to the platforms from the middle, but a station like Liverpool St is quite clearly split up between the former individual operators, whereas FCC services can be from almost any platform.

 

[jopsuk]

maybe once it is finished (and fully barried) there will be more of a concerted effort to concentrate FCC services on just the Suburban shed and the current 8, putting the EC and Open Access services on the current 0-5, with perhaps the current 6 & 7 to be used for both? Would be good!

 

[jon0844]

I think that might be possible when some services go through to the TL side, but they'll always have times where they have more trains than can fit on 9-11. Given platform 0 is for electrics only, that does mean there's always going to be a chance that it will be used for FCC services.

Now when the station is more open (and I can't picture exactly how that will look) then it won't be as big a deal I suppose - and people will stand more in the middle of 9-11 and 0-8 (or 1-9 and 10-12 as I believe they'll become).

 

[Fred26]

Things may improve but when you have about 400 people trying to catch a train which was only announced 5 minutes before departure by 4 goons it does currently cause chaos and results in late departures. I know announcing the platform earlier will help but they will need lots of gates capable of taking large bags to reverse the problems currently.

Why the need to insult staff?

I'd be very surprised if the 'five minutes before departure' announcements continued after the redevelopment.
My point about Liverpool Street and Waterloo was that Network Rail knew what they were doing there with the installation of barriers and so I'm sure they know what they're doing at Kings Cross.

 

[Failed Unit]

Fred26 because in my experience that is a fair assessment of them at Kings Cross. They speak to passengers very badly. This may be just because they get nothing but abuse from passengers who are concerned about missing there train. But observing them the cap fits. There may be some very good ones doing the thankless task of delaying east coast trains and adding no value. I will be happy to retract that statement when I observe them. It could also be a case of only noticing the bad one out of the 4. Whatever you have the right to but a ticket on the train on east coast even if it is full fare non-discount so sending passengers back to the ticket office to purchase forcing them to wait an hour for the next train isn't customer friendly. Likewise I need to check the conditions of carriage but if you are allowed to upgrade off-peak to peak on the train they should not be forcing people to miss trains because of it.
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I must admit they are still much better than the mob employed at Manchester Picadilly.

 

[Fred26]

Fred26 because in my experience that is a fair assessment of them at Kings Cross. They speak to passengers very badly. This may be just because they get nothing but abuse from passengers who are concerned about missing there train. But observing them the cap fits. There may be some very good ones doing the thankless task of delaying east coast trains and adding no value. I will be happy to retract that statement when I observe them. It could also be a case of only noticing the bad one out of the 4. Whatever you have the right to but a ticket on the train on east coast even if it is full fare non-discount so sending passengers back to the ticket office to purchase forcing them to wait an hour for the next train isn't customer friendly. Likewise I need to check the conditions of carriage but if you are allowed to upgrade off-peak to peak on the train they should not be forcing people to miss trains because of it.
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I must admit they are still much better than the mob employed at Manchester Picadilly.

That was a bit of a rant. I've got no idea who these 'four' staff are you refer to. What do they actually do?

 

[Lampshade]

Why the need to insult staff?

I'd be very surprised if the 'five minutes before departure' announcements continued after the redevelopment.
My point about Liverpool Street and Waterloo was that Network Rail knew what they were doing there with the installation of barriers and so I'm sure they know what they're doing at Kings Cross.

Yes but there is an adequate number of gates at Waterloo. As much as it pains me to say it about my favourite station, installing the barriers at Waterloo has been an improvement, there used to be large crowds near the platform entrances at rush hour, the gates have allowed passengers to move through more freely.

However, there are no real 'intercity' journeys from Waterloo, most traffic is regional or suburban. This is the exact opposite to Kings Cross where the vast majority of services are intercity; barriers will be very unwelcome.

 

[Failed Unit]

That was a bit of a rant. I've got no idea who these 'four' staff are you refer to. What do they actually do?

It was a good rant. The four staff prevent speedy boarding of IC trains and cause delays by checking tickets before boarding. Something that does not need to be done on trains which first stop is York or Doncaster.

 

[stut]

Main problem is passengers who despite hearing the announcement on the trains to have tickets ready for the barrier and see the signs for the barrier don't get them out until the last possible oppotunity

Unfortunately, announcements on trains seem to have got to the point of overload.

Yes, thanks for the welcome. Oh yes, right, it stops at my stop, good. Right, emergency posters, like I'm going to get up and look at those. Hustle alarm, what on earth is that? Quiet zone? Fat chance with all these announcements. Oh look, we're at the next stop now and they start all over again.

Give people that many instructions and they simply stop paying attention. I suspect this has a large part to play in it.

However, you do have to wonder at people who leave their entire sense of awareness at home. If I'm travelling with luggage and need to get a ticket out, I step aside to do so. It's not rocket science.

Just be thankful that stations don't have the same brain-diminishing effects on the travelling public as the airports.